RG&B Soft Shackle review

[Antichrist]

These quotes of yours bellow is how I arrived at that conclusion.

Even taking the quotes entirely out of context as you have, I still don't see how you can arrive at the conclusion that I don't like the industry standard for winch line (which isn't the topic) or that I think people should be protected from misuse (which is impossible to do, even assuming someone wanted to).

The discussion is not about winch line or about people misusing shackles.
It's about shackles and about people using them as designed.

Unfortunately two key pieces of data are omitted from your posts which leaves it up to the reader to just guess whether or not the industry standard guidelines regarding effects of rigging on load capacity apply (to this particular rope) or not. Those things are:
- Breaking strength of the line in a straight pull (as when used as a winch line)
- Diameter of pin in the first breaking demonstration video (right now the two breaking loads can't really be compared)

But for the sake of argument I'll accept that there's something special about the material or its treatment that allows a person to ignore standard rope handling guidelines such as D/d ratios or a shock load vs. a slow increase in load.
In other words, I'll assume the breaking strength of the rope when made in to a shackle is exactly the same as when used as a winch line and shock loading has no greater effect on it than when used with a winch.

But that still leaves the poor design factor of <1.5:1. Remember, we're not talking about winch line, we're talking about shackles.
Considering that the soft shackle material is much more susceptible to damage from environmental factors than steel shackles, using such a poor design factor leaves very little room for weakening due to damage that's very likely to occur when it's used as designed.

...it seems your major issue with the product is the name.

No, why would would it be? That's what it is (a shackle).
As you can see above, my main concern is the design factor. The company that makes them seems to have arbitrarily decided that a <1.5:1 design factor is perfectly ok for a shackle used for recovery.
Contrast this to a company like ARB which markets shackles with, at minimum, a 3:1 design factor.

So my major issue with them is the poor design factor combined with the fact that the company makes shackles with a design factor 50% less than the decades old industry standard for recovery shackles (and close to 75% less than what many people prefer), yet that information isn't plainly provided.

Apparently they don't like the industry standard for shackles.
Using their logic, people can just start using $9 Columbus Mckinnon M649AG 7/16” shackles which deform, not break, at 26,000lb.

 

[Antichrist]

The 9mm ones that Lucky8 sells...is rated for a Working Load Limit of 18,000lbs.

Now this is confusing. Seeing it stated that it's 9mm made it appear that the rope defied standard rope handling guidelines.
But looking here: http://lucky8llc.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=7209 it looks like it's actually 16mm, as seen here:

If it's actually 16mm (5/8”) as labeled, and assuming it's only Amsteel-Blue (one of the lower rated synthetic ropes), then that would mean its average breaking strength, 52,800lbs, is pretty much halved when used as a shackle, which one would expect based on the industry standard rope handling guidelines described.

I recognize that at this point the above is conjecture since there is conflicting information as to its size and there is no information (that I've seen) on the material or it's capacity when used in a straight line pull.

Amsteel-Blue capacities:http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?rope=192

 

[Red90]

If it's actually 16mm (5/8&#8221 as labeled, and assuming it's only Amsteel-Blue (one of the lower rated synthetic ropes), then that would mean its average breaking strength, 52,800lbs, is pretty much halved when used as a shackle, which one would expect based on the industry standard rope handling guidelines described.

Umm but it is a double rope pull in shackle use, so 52800 lbs * 2 * de-ration (for the knot, spliced and the tight bends) = breaking strength.

I imagine the confusion over size is they are using 9 mm rope which becomes 16 mm when the splicing is performed.

 

[Red90]

I really think you need to step back. It has been shown to have a breaking strength around 25000 pounds. On a normal 8000 lb winch this is a factor over 3:1, which is tons.

 

[Viggen]

I really think you need to step back. It has been shown to have a breaking strength around 25000 pounds. On a normal 8000 lb winch this is a factor over 3:1, which is tons.

 

[LR Max]

Maybe make these out of bigger/better rope? Seems like the logical course of action to increase strength.

In comparison, does anyone have any data on a 3/4" shackle in a similar test?

 

[Antichrist]

It has been shown to have a breaking strength around 25000 pounds. On a normal 8000 lb winch this is a factor over 3:1, which is tons.

The only problem with that line of thought is that's not how shackles are rated. Plus, it wouldn't be 3:1 on a full load double line pull if the shackle's on the snatch block end.

Maybe make these out of bigger/better rope? Seems like the logical course of action to increase strength.

That would certainly be an option.

In comparison, does anyone have any data on a 3/4" shackle in a similar test?

The CM 3/4" alloy shackle has a 14,000lb WLL and an ultimate strength (the point where it begins to deform) of 70,000lb. Not a 3/4" (more likely a 5/8"), but here's a steel shackle break test. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=513Rn7uuJao

 

[Antichrist]

Not a 3/4" (more likely a 5/8"), but here's a steel shackle break test. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=513Rn7uuJao

I was wrong, I looked it up and it actually is a 3/4" shackle.
I was in a hurry and based my estimate of it being 5/8" on the CM 5/8" alloy which has a 5t WLL.

 

[Red90]

Love to see this snatch block you are using that is as strong as the 3/4" shackle....

 

[Antichrist]

Love to see this snatch block you are using that is as strong as the 3/4" shackle....

I don't think all components in a rigging scenario should be of equal strength. Instead, I evaluate the situation and decide where I want my weakest link given the conditions (assuming by some miracle that my winch greatly exceeds it's stall rating).
However, in general, when matching a snatch block with shackle, I want the snatch block to be the failure point on the theory that it's less mass when broken to go somewhere unexpected, so I use a CM 5/8" with a WLL of 5t, yield at 25t. The snatch block I use most is an ARB209 with a WLL of 7t, failure at 15.5t.

I'm certainly open to arguments for why the snatch block should always be stronger than the shackle. If they seem reasonable I could always start using a CM 7/16" with a 2.6t WLL, 13t yield. Though given how the 3/4" performed in the video I might need to go down to a 3/8" with 2t WLL (10t yield) to be sure it breaks before the snatch block. But using a 3/8" would really creep me out.

 

[Fivespddisco]

Tom we all understand you have these mac daddy Columbus Mckinnon shackles. Everyone is proud of you.
The L8 soft shackle is made from 9mm rope weaved in a loop and that makes it 16mm. I do not know why it is not 18mm but I think it is the same kind of math that happens at a bar late at night
Example
Erik picks up a 10 at the club after a night of drinking and wakes up with a 5.
You keep insisting on comparing the rating to your industry standards but keep ignoring the difference. You are comparing Metal to a synthetic rope.
You keep talking about WLL and design factors but ignoring the difference, Metal vs. synthetic rope.
You said this

assuming it's only Amsteel-Blue (one of the lower rated synthetic ropes)http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?rope=192

I call Bs! More so you do not know what you’re talking about. We use Dyneema® (SK75) . This is a great rope for winching and recovery because it will withstand to multiple cycling’s with out failure unlike others on the market.
I have gone above and beyond to prove when these shackles "can" break. Backing it up with testing and videos.
You have done nothing but stalk me on the web complaining about the name, how they are rated and how people may misuse them. At this point it is getting a bit creepy. Are you doing it as a favor to one of my competitors?
You told everyone to go to Dweb and read about this but when people did not buy your BS there you ran away. I stand by that recommendation.
http://www.discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77169
Go over and read the thread because I sent the shackles off to Garret and JB of Overland experts to be tested.
http://www.overlandexperts.com/
They both have replied with positive feedback and excellent suggestion on how and when to best use the new shackles along with excellent upgrade ideas.

Tom I don’t know what you want from me at this point. I have backed up everything with facts and scientific data. You’re acting like a troll at this point.

 

[Antichrist]

I realize I've let myself continue to be sucked in to a silly discussion, as illustrated here: http://www.lrrforums.com/showthread.php?20569-RG-amp-B-Soft-Shackle-review&p=185230#post185230
I apologize to the forums for that.

Justin, you accuse me of posting BS, yet in all your writing you haven't provided any evidence that anything I've actually said is incorrect. You did try to show I was wrong on the effects of the D/d ratio, but you haven't stated what the pin diameter was in the original test so there's no way to know. Given a 16mm test specimen diameter I'd say I was pretty close. If data is provided showing I was wrong I'll be happy, as always, to retract what I said.

Your entire premise is that synthetic shackles should be rated at a lower design factor than steel shackles because one is made from synthetic material and one is made from steel.
My premise is that they should be held to the same design factor standard because they are both shackles.

By your logic synthetic slings and wire rope slings should be held to different design factors because one is steel and the other is synthetic.
By my logic slings made from synthetic material and those made from steel should be held to the same design factor standard.

You might be interested to know steel and synthetic slings are held to the same design factor standard of 5:1.
People are free to disagree with industry standards. However, disagreeing doesn't mean they don't exist.

As I've never denied, there's certainly a use for synthetic shackles for some people. Only the individual can decide if there is and how to use them.
I'll leave it at that.

 

[rezdiver]

Tom,
I can go into a rigging store and right beside the CM shackles are chinese non branded shackles with the same rating on them.

If i am dumb enough to expect the same safety rating and use out of a no name brand shackle compared to the CM shackle, and i do not confirm the safety rating so i am aware of its limits when i actually go to use it, then murphies law applies.

Justin has come clean with his numbers and it looks like a good product for a select market. just because it is named "shackle" does not mean it performs like a overhead lifting rated shackle and he has rated it accordingly. Its a chunk of rope with a loop and a knot on the end of it that is a disposable item. if anyone picks one of these up expecting the same rating as an overhead rated certified shackle then thats the same person that should not have a winch on his bumper or rigging in his hand.

and for the amount of room it takes and ease of use, if it feels uncomfortable using just one at the rated value for the load, then just carry a couple and double it up.

 

[Douglas S.]

What's the advantage over a traditional shackle? Other than the metal one becoming a projectile if it fails (almost unheard of if rigged properly).

 

[David Harris]

Good question. I also wonder if those would absorb water and mud, freeze in the winter, deteriorate from road salt, abrade from the inside, etc. I know climbing ropes can suffer from all of these problems and lose strength/fail. What's the effect of UV light on these as well?