RTT's and Rain

[HMR]

HMR, great photos of your tent being used in extreme wet conditions. Did you shake off as much as you could before you lowered the tent? How did you handle that and how much moisture transferred inside the next time you opened the tent.

Shaking the water off would've removed most of the moisture. Unfortunately, it was still pouring when we packed up so I had to stow the tent with a bunch of water on the fabric. When I got home, I opened the tent in the garage to let it dry out. I was surprised after many hours and 200+ miles of driving, the water was still beading on the fabric. The edges of the mattress near the doors were damp but not soaked.

 

[HMR]

I used a 3M waterproofing treatment on the Maggiolina last year. It did help with the water beading on the outside. I have always found the tent material to transfer water to the inside bedding.

Have you had better luck?

I'm going to get some of the 3M treatment just for preventative maintenance. You have a lot more RTT experience than I do. I appreciate the input.

 

[Martyn]

Martyn, is there more of a fly sheet than the one that covers the top and forms the door awnings? Speaking of Eezi-Awn.

Alvin

That is the fly sheet. The fabric of the inner tent is water resistant, so the fly just protects the inner tent from rain falling vertically.

Technically speaking there is a difference between water proof and water resistant. Water proof or impervious material has no breath ability, it's typically a coated material. Water resistant material stops the ingress of water droplets but allows vapor to escape. The resistance to the ingress of water is measured using a funnel test, where the material is tested using an increasing column of water to the point where it leaks.

The material itself normally is not a problem. The stitching can allow water through as the hole the needle punches in the material and the thread are different sizes. With canvas tents you were always told to soak down the tent so the stitching would swell up and plug the hole made by the needle. With synthetic or blended materials or thread there is little or no water absorption so the swelling does not take place.

You don't see that many problems with leaking seams, but if they do occur seam seal or wax takes care of it. The nice thing about wax is it works when the fabric is wet.

 

[MaddBaggins]

Thanks Martyn!

 

[OS-Aussie]

I have a Maggiolina Airland and the only issue I have had is the condensation from overnight forming on the interia roof, but unlike our old RTT it did not drip down onto us at about 5am. This has only happen with an outside temperature of 4 degrees F and the winter hood fitted.

I have experienced 50 mph winds while on a mountain top and the Airland was fine, as were we after the initial get used to the strange noises.

 

[Mike S]

I've been camping in Central California for the past three weeks. I have both the Maggiolina Small and the Columbus Carbon Fiber Medium.

I have the Columbus with me now on the M101 trailer while I travel here in CA.

The columbus has held up extremely well in the rains the past few weeks. Eventually the dampness does take over inside the tent and I had to dry out the bedding. (due to the tent material folding up (on close up) and contacting the bedding.)

The Columbus tent material is not breathable like the Maggiolina so you must sleep with the zippers cracked open a bit to let the tent breath. This presents a bit of an issue as there are no door awnings.

The only thing this tent is missing is a rain fly, (and an awning). It has the velcro around the top edge like the Maggiolina, but I don't think I have seen a fly for it ( Mike S ???)

I have the winter hood for the Maggiolina and this would help with heavy rains.

All and all, these tents make it really nice to set up and tear down in moments, with all the comforts of home.

Pasquale --

Of course I have winter hoods available for the Columbus. Call me, and I will get one to you.

The Columbus is an excellent tent, and uses the Airtex fabric - which is similar in design to Gore-Tex. It is primarily for camping in more moderate climates, and is vented to allow air circulation to prevent the build up of condensation. But three weeks of rain is not so moderate! We also have the Under Mattress Air Circulation Matts to aid in reducing the potential for condensation in very humid weather, and they work pretty well.

We need to get together - I can bring the winter hood with me. I am heading for San Diego for the Off-Road show on Friday.

Mike

 

[Mike S]

I used a 3M waterproofing treatment on the Maggiolina last year. It did help with the water beading on the outside. I have always found the tent material to transfer water to the inside bedding.

Have you had better luck?

The real deal is 303 Products High Tech Fabric Guard. It is avalable in marine shops and direct from 303 Products --

303 Products website

 

[viatierra]

Alvin

That is the fly sheet.

You can see from the picture that the awning is on. So I was using the fly sheet. Isn't there stiching at the hoops on the fly sheet? Quite a bit of water came in right at those seams.

 

[RobinP]

Using a RTT in the cold rain really sucks though. Ours is the Technitop, and like most of them does a great job of keeping the rain out in all weather. But the outside never dries when the rain never stops, so you pack it up wet. A bit of the water gets to the mattress and the sleeping gear, a little each time. The next day you open it up, it's still raining, it gets wetter, and after 3 or more days of cold rain everything's wet.

We go back to a quality ground tent for fall and spring camping on the west coast of BC.

In Belize it was so humid that after every 10 minute rain dump (on a regular basis), even though a hot sun would come out nothing would actually dry. After 3 days our gear was completely soaked and we had to take a break and borrow someones garage for a day to dry out.

Sometimes I think the original RTT manufacturers came from really hot and dry countries...

 

[Martyn]

You can see from the picture that the awning is on. So I was using the fly sheet. Isn't there stiching at the hoops on the fly sheet? Quite a bit of water came in right at those seams.

Greg

OK now I see. Again seam seal or Bee's Wax is what's needed.

Using a RTT in the cold rain really sucks though. Ours is the Technitop, and like most of them does a great job of keeping the rain out in all weather. But the outside never dries when the rain never stops, so you pack it up wet. A bit of the water gets to the mattress and the sleeping gear, a little each time. The next day you open it up, it's still raining, it gets wetter, and after 3 or more days of cold rain everything's wet.

We go back to a quality ground tent for fall and spring camping on the west coast of BC.

In Belize it was so humid that after every 10 minute rain dump (on a regular basis), even though a hot sun would come out nothing would actually dry. After 3 days our gear was completely soaked and we had to take a break and borrow someones garage for a day to dry out.

Sometimes I think the original RTT manufacturers came from really hot and dry countries...

Robin

What's the solution in tropical humid weather if it's raining and then remains humid? I don't think there is one. Traveling in the tropics I've had mold grow on clothing inside my backpack. Unless you can get in direct sunlight with good airflow your screwed.

 

[gpwpat]

I have yet to use my eezi awn in the rain. but actualy are looking forward to it.

Wouldn't treating the canvas with a product like 3m or canvak or other canvas water proofer/ protectant be a bad thing as it would prevent the tent from the ability to breathe?

I use Canvak to preserve the canvas top on my wwii jeep. and you can buy canvas tarps that are treated with the stuff. but I think it would make the tent hot and stuffy, in the summer.

 

[viatierra]

OK now I see. Again seam seal or Bee's Wax is what's needed.

Cool, we'll have to give that a shot.

 

[Martyn]

I have yet to use my eezi awn in the rain. but actualy are looking forward to it.

Wouldn't treating the canvas with a product like 3m or canvak or other canvas water proofer/ protectant be a bad thing as it would prevent the tent from the ability to breathe?

I use Canvak to preserve the canvas top on my wwii jeep. and you can buy canvas tarps that are treated with the stuff. but I think it would make the tent hot and stuffy, in the summer.

Never had to re waterproof an Eezi Awn. If I had to I probably look into the Niki Wax products or the 303 Products High Tech Fabric Guard MikeS was referring to. Something specific to breathable materials.

 

[Lemsteraak]

It is difficult to make a single wall tent keep the rain water out but still breathe. I've done a lot of work with the Maggiolina's fabric through the years, it has a DWR finish (durable water repellant) but even it's finish does wear out with time.

Here are some thoughts, they are highly subjective and always subject to change.

I'm not a fan of seam sealant, it too wears, best to design a tent so the seams aren't in critical places. You will sometimes find seams on the folding rooftents. The good fabrics for this type of tent have a cotton content, which is good because the water causes the fabric to swell and close up to be water repellant. The problem is it stretches the seams, allowing water to come in there. We redesigned AutoHome's OverCamp tent many years ago because the fabric was reinforced at the peak, for wear. If it rained over 4 inches an hour, the tent would develop drips at the threads, even though this wasn't a seam. None of the OverCamp or OverLand tents have seams in the roof for this reason. We also use a "winter hood" that turns the tent into a double walled, four season tent, for these conditions.

Here is what I recommend for the Maggiolina which uses a special Drylon fabric. Drylon is a synthetic polyester, so it doesn't absorb water and swell. With time, the DWR finish (durable water repellant) will wear and water will not bead up and the fabric will get wet. The Drylon needs the DWR renewed. There are several products that can do this. Scotch Guard by 3M tends to attract dirt and dirt hampers the DWR finish. I recommend the 303 finishes over Scotch Guard or NikWax for this reason. Clean the fabric really well, 303 has a special cleaner for this. Apply the 303 finish, and leave the tent out in the sun on a hot day. This is critical, the heat will let the 303 finish bond to the fabric. I will use a hair dryer in the winter, but it doesn't work as well. The Maggiolina's design is excellent for continuous wet weather, but you can also get a winter hood to make it a double walled tent.

The Columbus is something of a hybrid tent. Drylon isn't as good because the sloping walls need more water repellence. This tent uses Airtex fabric, which has a special PTFE finish, similar to what GoreTex now uses. Pasquale is right, it doesn't breathe as well, but you never have to worry about water coming in. I have noticed some condensation in very wet cold conditions. If this is a concern, again, use a winter hood and turn it into a four season tent.

Martyn brought up condensation. This will occur anytime there is a cold surface that warm moist air can condense on. Solutions are breathable fabrics, and insulation. I've seen rooftents that are "waterproof" that will turn into little rain forests once the water condenses on the fabric, not pleasant. Any surface that gets cold needs to be insulated. Many rooftents have plywood bases, sounds bad but actually insulates quite well. Look under your mattress, if it is wet, you tent probably didn't leak, that's condensation. A good rooftent will have an insulated base. Another of my pet peaves is ridgepoles that aren't sheathed and insulated. Fine if you camp in the desert, but water will condense all night and drip on you, even if it isn't raining.

Oh, Pasquale, you mentioned an awning for a Columbus, yes we have them, we use a parawing design that goes over the whole tent, lots of protection, you just attach to the top and it deploys when you open the Columbus, Mike can set you up.

Almost forgot, we have a new experimental mesh that goes under your mattress. It is about a half inch thick and acts like a box spring, has a little cush, very little weight, but allows air to pass under your mattress. Our guy in Germany developed it and I've been testing in in marine conditions, it works. Stock is really limited but we do have some. Should work on any brand of rooftent no just AutoHome.

Hope this helps explain some of the science and design issues. Rooftents are a challenge they are very different from ground tents.

Rich @ AutoHome

 

[Martyn]

It is difficult to make a single wall tent keep the rain water out but still breathe. I've done a lot of work with the Maggiolina's fabric through the years, it has a DWR finish (durable water repellant) but even it's finish does wear out with time.

Here are some thoughts, they are highly subjective and always subject to change.

I'm not a fan of seam sealant, it too wears, best to design a tent so the seams aren't in critical places. You will sometimes find seams on the folding rooftents. The good fabrics for this type of tent have a cotton content, which is good because the water causes the fabric to swell and close up to be water repellant. The problem is it stretches the seams, allowing water to come in there. We redesigned AutoHome's OverCamp tent many years ago because the fabric was reinforced at the peak, for wear. If it rained over 4 inches an hour, the tent would develop drips at the threads, even though this wasn't a seam. None of the OverCamp or OverLand tents have seams in the roof for this reason. We also use a "winter hood" that turns the tent into a double walled, four season tent, for these conditions.

Here is what I recommend for the Maggiolina which uses a special Drylon fabric. Drylon is a synthetic polyester, so it doesn't absorb water and swell. With time, the DWR finish (durable water repellant) will wear and water will not bead up and the fabric will get wet. The Drylon needs the DWR renewed. There are several products that can do this. Scotch Guard by 3M tends to attract dirt and dirt hampers the DWR finish. I recommend the 303 finishes over Scotch Guard or NikWax for this reason. Clean the fabric really well, 303 has a special cleaner for this. Apply the 303 finish, and leave the tent out in the sun on a hot day. This is critical, the heat will let the 303 finish bond to the fabric. I will use a hair dryer in the winter, but it doesn't work as well. The Maggiolina's design is excellent for continuous wet weather, but you can also get a winter hood to make it a double walled tent.

The Columbus is something of a hybrid tent. Drylon isn't as good because the sloping walls need more water repellence. This tent uses Airtex fabric, which has a special PTFE finish, similar to what GoreTex now uses. Pasquale is right, it doesn't breathe as well, but you never have to worry about water coming in. I have noticed some condensation in very wet cold conditions. If this is a concern, again, use a winter hood and turn it into a four season tent.

Martyn brought up condensation. This will occur anytime there is a cold surface that warm moist air can condense on. Solutions are breathable fabrics, and insulation. I've seen rooftents that are "waterproof" that will turn into little rain forests once the water condenses on the fabric, not pleasant. Any surface that gets cold needs to be insulated. Many rooftents have plywood bases, sounds bad but actually insulates quite well. Look under your mattress, if it is wet, you tent probably didn't leak, that's condensation. A good rooftent will have an insulated base. Another of my pet peaves is ridgepoles that aren't sheathed and insulated. Fine if you camp in the desert, but water will condense all night and drip on you, even if it isn't raining.

Oh, Pasquale, you mentioned an awning for a Columbus, yes we have them, we use a parawing design that goes over the whole tent, lots of protection, you just attach to the top and it deploys when you open the Columbus, Mike can set you up.

Almost forgot, we have a new experimental mesh that goes under your mattress. It is about a half inch thick and acts like a box spring, has a little cush, very little weight, but allows air to pass under your mattress. Our guy in Germany developed it and I've been testing in in marine conditions, it works. Stock is really limited but we do have some. Should work on any brand of rooftent no just AutoHome.

Hope this helps explain some of the science and design issues. Rooftents are a challenge they are very different from ground tents.

Rich @ AutoHome

Rich
Great input, thank you for sharing. It's been so long since I'd heard from you I imagined you to be on some world trek, or sailing voyage. Did my imagination go wild and you have really be stuck in the Bay Area all this time?