Seatbelt = New Rig?

[5Runner]

Background:
I have a 3rd gen 4runner that I am very happy to squeeze my family of 5 in. It is our Offroad Expedition Rig. Use: 4 night camping trips, take highway to trails, rock crawl to primitive camp. Not a daily driver. See signature for some mods.

Problem:
My smallest child (of the 3) will be ready to move out of his 5-point harness in about a year (thats pushing it). It hit me like a ton of bricks and has really messed up my plans...there's no shoulder belt on the center rear seat in the 4runner... oh no!

From everything I have read it is absolutely dangerous and harmful to put a child in a seat with only a lap belt. My oldest/strongest just turned eight, so a small collosion would break her in half if in that seat.

I am totally in shock of this finding. I researched and searched for my 4runner when I bought it three years ago. I guess at that time I just never imagined my kids growing up...I can't believe I didn't think about this then.

So. I see two options:

1) Weld a complete roll cage/roof rack/new cargo kitchen out of steel, and install a 3-point seatbelt in the center seat. I would need to rebuild the kitchen and roof rack because my cargo space and storage will change with the additional supports for the seatbelt. This will likely require additional gear on the roof, and I already have plans for a custom roof rack/box. There's more details, but you get the idea...MOD THE 4RUNNER.

2) Accept the mistake, sell the runner and start my build over with a 100 series land cruiser (years 99, 2000 ish) The 100 has the center shoulder strap and a V8. We are about 2,000+ lbs over stock weight in the runner, including mods, gear, people, dog, water, food...all our stuff. So the 4runner already struggles to get us up some serious mountain hill climbs. In 4low, low and struggling to the top of a pass in CO has been sketchy a few times. The V8 LC would give us more power...but I "could" also swap a Lexus V8 into the runner when my V6 dies (that was the original long term plan) But...is that sensible, considering the seat belt mod that is also required now. The runner is also packed tight and we are very selective about what we can bring. We don't use a stove for example, its all cooked on the fire.

So...It seems to me that the horrible sad truth is that I bought the wrong rig and should move to an LC. Oh the pain and money that will cost me to get where I am now with my runner...sniff...tear...

I would LOVE to hear from you LC guys/gals and what you think. My 4runner is so nimble and graceful winding on the narrow CO trails. I need encouraging words about the 100 LC. It seems it will make a great offroad expedition rig when I get it built, but what am I not thinking of? I know that the runner will get tight in, say, 6 years when I have a 10, 12 and 14 year old.

Okay, I am rambling...hope some of you even read this whole post. I am a bit emotionally bummed about this. I was having a custom belly skid built for my runner next week, until this realization came to light. Now I feel totally consumed by this problem. I do ALOT of camping/mountain day trips with the family, so I need to get a plan in place so a year from now (max) I am back in good expedition shape with SAFE children.

HELP...

 

[BIGdaddy]

I have 3 kids, too. We fit ok right now in a Cherokee, but that's about the same size as a 4runner.

We'll still be in 5-point "boosters for a few years, and have some time, but I totally know your situation. Don't want to waste the truck you've built, if you don't have to.

FJ100's are a good choice, though.

 

[Cackalak Han]

I've only got one kid right now, but moved on from my 3rd gen 4Runners and 4door Tacoma for the exact reason you're contemplating the trade. Although I did love my 4Runner(s) and Tacoma, I have zero regrets moving to a 100. It is SO much bigger on the inside. And VERY plush. I did many 6 hour trips in the Tacoma and 4Runner and numerous times, my leg/butt would fall asleep and get sore. Same trips in my 100 and zero complaints. The Mrs. also appreciates the extra comfort. Plus the power of V8 is awesome. I'm at 4,500+ ft and it really helps to have a V8. Especially towing.

I'd highly recommend getting a 100. You can easily sell the mods on your 4Runner and recoup some of the costs.

 

[rezdiver]

I am going through the same thing now as my kid is growing out of child seat and into booster seat.

couple of choices.
they have new booster seats with 5 point harnesses on the market that can go to a higher weight class so you can use it longer with your kid in the 5 point harness with the lapbelt holding the seat in. maybe give you a couple of more years.



custom make a roll bar in the back and add a 3 point seat belt. buy a toyota 3 point belt this way it will be certified and cops will nto hassle you.


custom make a harness bar and buy the 2 inch 4 point racing harnesses and use that for your kid. the 3 inch webbing is too big. this method although probably the safest is not legal according to DOT but this is probably what i am doing with my kid. there is a couple of 4 point harnesses on the market in the US that are DOT approved, so you should be ok here, Here in canada we do not have any 4 point or 5 point harnesses that are approved for the road.

 

[4Rescue]

Simple... Just don't get in a wreck and the kid will be fine

I grew up riding in a car with NO shoulder belts and I'm just fine. Even got in more then a few wrecks... You make it sound like its a given that the kid WILL get hurt if he doesn't have a shoulder belt. I'm guessing your father and mother (and even YOU) grew up in cars/trucks with no shoulder belts and you're here aren't you???

Or you could just wrap the kid in bubble wrap untill he's 18

Seriously though, shoulder belts don't gaurentee safety... I know you're just being uber protective of your kid, and that's cool. Just my opinion, but I'm an EMT and I work in an ER so I've seen alot of things happen to kids/people. You can never gaurentee safety unless you just never go out of the house, and even then...

Sorry if that sounded rude, I really didn't mean it to be. It's just a huge pet peve of mine the way people coddle kids these days. Were raising a bunch of scarred whinny little sissy's IMO. Kids SHOULD get cut's scrapes and bruises, it builds cahrectar adn is part of life IMO.

Cheers

Dave

 

[5Runner]

Were raising a bunch of scarred whinny little sissy's IMO. Kids SHOULD get cut's scrapes and bruises, it builds cahrectar adn is part of life IMO.

Cheers

Dave

Have no fear, Dave...we totally agree on the above. My kids and are trips our rugged, and they are definitely not coddled. You did not offend me, as I am not one of the parents you are referring to.

However, the seatbelt thing is totally different, and my kids are very young, tall and skinny. I cannot put my daughter (oldest) in the only seat in the rig with "less" safety and feel good. In countless other accidents that could happen in our lives they would not be so directed to a well-known-to-me issue. That is not something I would chance.

Thanks for the opinions.

 

[4Rescue]

Have no fear, Dave...we totally agree on the above. My kids and are trips our rugged, and they are definitely not coddled. You did not offend me, as I am not one of the parents you are referring to.

However, the seatbelt thing is totally different, and my kids are very young, tall and skinny. I cannot put my daughter (oldest) in the only seat in the rig with "less" safety and feel good. In countless other accidents that could happen in our lives they would not be so directed to a well-known-to-me issue. That is not something I would chance.

Thanks for the opinions.

Hey, no harm in caring for your kids mate. Sorry if that came off as rude. Glad we agree on that, it drives me nuts to see kids being protected from Life.

Hope yoiu find a solution cause I know what it's like to have to give up a rig you've put alot of time and effort into.

But, as said by many above, the 100-series is a great truck that may well suit your needs perfectly. Slee's "rock-Limo, and Scott's 100 are every bit as capable off-road as a 4Runner and they're still VERY tough (they're Land cruisers so what do you expect eh ) I guess I never really thought of having center passenger shoulder belts, I'm an "old truck" kind of guy. Hell I don't even HAVE back seats so... HAHAHAHAHA

Cheers

DAve

 

[BIGdaddy]

Have no fear, Dave...we totally agree on the above. My kids and are trips our rugged, and they are definitely not coddled. You did not offend me, as I am not one of the parents you are referring to.

However, the seatbelt thing is totally different, and my kids are very young, tall and skinny. I cannot put my daughter (oldest) in the only seat in the rig with "less" safety and feel good. In countless other accidents that could happen in our lives they would not be so directed to a well-known-to-me issue. That is not something I would chance.

Thanks for the opinions.

From the sound of it you're well on your way to making the right decision for your munchkins. Definitely sounds like you've got your priorities straight. As Dave is saying though, I think planning everything around safety or perceived safety isn't a very good plan. To that end, I think the caged 4runner idea is a bit much for your uses. I think a nice safe larger vehicle is a better option. Can't plan for every eventuality, and a 100 is a great compromise to your "list" of must-haves.

I agree with the above that if you parted your mods back out, and took the rig back to stock before selling or trading in, you'd likely be a fairly happy camper. fj100's and fj80's are still selling poorly due to the economy right now.

I was going to step into a 3rd or 4th gen 4runner myself, soon. I actually just started a thread on it a couple days ago. You've got me thinking about the eventual space issue though, so thanks for ruining my plans.

:elkgrin:

 

[iigs]

Background:
So. I see two options:

1) Weld a complete roll cage/roof rack/new cargo kitchen out of steel, and install a 3-point seatbelt in the center seat...

2) ... We are about 2,000+ lbs over stock weight in the runner, including mods, gear, people, dog, water, food...all our stuff

I'm not a lawyer, or anything close. I've given thoughts to modifying seats/safety systems to suit my perceived needs and I keep coming back to one problem:

If you get into a wreck, and it's not your fault, and the person in the modified seat gets hurt, you may have a very difficult time getting a satisfactory judgement if it ever goes to court. Maybe you're not litigious, but if your insurance covers your injuries and then attempts to sue the other insurer to get relief and fails, they could end up dropping your coverage over it, if not outright denying it.

This can put you in a precarious financial situation even if you had the best intentions. It seems like the wrong way to go if you're trying to be safe.

Likewise, with point #2, I'm not sure, but I think you're hundreds of pounds over the maximum payload capacity for that vehicle. I don't think anyone can reasonably make the case that Toyota designed these vehicles to transport 5 people _and_ their gear for extended travelling, _and_ a pet, and so on. I think your lifestyle merits a larger vehicle or a trailer.

It's difficult to find a SUV that is rated to more than 2000lbs of payload capacity. I just checked these vehicles, and they all don't: the Hundy, Sequoia, Pathfinder Armada, Excursion(!), Suburban. The only ones that I can find that do are the Suburban 2500 and the H2. I'm not trying to be a contrary about the idea, I just wanted to throw out a concern that I've had when looking at vehicles with similar needs (particularly safety/liability when travelling with others) in mind.

Good luck!

 

[5Runner]

I'm not a lawyer, or anything close. I've given thoughts to modifying seats/safety systems to suit my perceived needs and I keep coming back to one problem:

If you get into a wreck, and it's not your fault, and the person in the modified seat gets hurt, you may have a very difficult time getting a satisfactory judgement if it ever goes to court. Maybe you're not litigious, but if your insurance covers your injuries and then attempts to sue the other insurer to get relief and fails, they could end up dropping your coverage over it, if not outright denying it.

This can put you in a precarious financial situation even if you had the best intentions. It seems like the wrong way to go if you're trying to be safe.

Likewise, with point #2, I'm not sure, but I think you're hundreds of pounds over the maximum payload capacity for that vehicle. I don't think anyone can reasonably make the case that Toyota designed these vehicles to transport 5 people _and_ their gear for extended travelling, _and_ a pet, and so on. I think your lifestyle merits a larger vehicle or a trailer.

It's difficult to find a SUV that is rated to more than 2000lbs of payload capacity. I just checked these vehicles, and they all don't: the Hundy, Sequoia, Pathfinder Armada, Excursion(!), Suburban. The only ones that I can find that do are the Suburban 2500 and the H2. I'm not trying to be a contrary about the idea, I just wanted to throw out a concern that I've had when looking at vehicles with similar needs (particularly safety/liability when travelling with others) in mind.

Good luck!

Now that is some good stuff to think about right there. Thanks.

UPDATE:

I took the car seats out of the runner, and had my wife and daughter sit in the back and then I squeezed in. Of course we were bigger than three kids, but it gave me a feel for it. I think the three kids could fit "okay".

Then I sat right in the center, and so did my wife. It was horribly uncomfortable. The back seats are curved in a manner obvious to TWO people. The curve and the split down the middle made it...not so good. Now, of course, the wife and I weigh more than the kids and that probably makes a difference, but I don't think they would like the seat much for a long road trip or trail trip.

 

[1leglance]

sounds like you have plenty of reasons to switch rigs...
when you add up the cost of the mods needed to the Runner then I think the cost balances the switch.
Go for it especially since your kids will continue to grow and you will need more room all the time.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I grew up riding in a car with NO shoulder belts and I'm just fine. Even got in more then a few wrecks... You make it sound like its a given that the kid WILL get hurt if he doesn't have a shoulder belt. I'm guessing your father and mother (and even YOU) grew up in cars/trucks with no shoulder belts and you're here aren't you???

LOL! I remember one our first road trips as a kid, I was I think about 4 years old when my parents took us from St. Louis to Disney World in Florida. I napped on the rear cargo deck of our 1967 VW Type 3 fastback. How times have changed, my mom and dad would be thrown in prison these days. My first car at 16 was a 1956 Plymouth and dad and I upgraded the thing to lap belts, forget that it had a metal dash board and a wheel on a spear (otherwise known as the way, way, way before collapsible steering column). I wrecked that thing several times and somehow didn't die.

 

[Sawyer]

I have a hundy and it is great for a family rig.

Something to think about when you start looking is the cost of mods. There are not a ton of companies making stuff out there for it. Lift is pretty limited to roughly 2.5". Mods also cost more than most of the other rigs out there.

But, I love mine and if you go the Hundy route.... you will too!

 

[azxplorer]

Simple... Just don't get in a wreck and the kid will be fine

I grew up riding in a car with NO shoulder belts and I'm just fine. Even got in more then a few wrecks... You make it sound like its a given that the kid WILL get hurt if he doesn't have a shoulder belt. I'm guessing your father and mother (and even YOU) grew up in cars/trucks with no shoulder belts and you're here aren't you???

Seriously though, shoulder belts don't gaurentee safety... I know you're just being uber protective of your kid, and that's cool. Just my opinion, but I'm an EMT and I work in an ER so I've seen alot of things happen to kids/people. You can never gaurentee safety unless you just never go out of the house, and even then...

Sorry if that sounded rude, I really didn't mean it to be. It's just a huge pet peve of mine the way people coddle kids these days. Were raising a bunch of scarred whinny little sissy's IMO. Kids SHOULD get cut's scrapes and bruises, it builds cahrectar adn is part of life IMO.

Cheers

Dave

Yup. I agree. Getting ejected from a vehicle builds character and if you don't do it once you've been coddled. RRRRRRRRRRIGHT!

I don't know if your ER includes a trauma room or not. I don't know if you've seen kid's lives inalterably and needlessly changed from car crashes on your EMT runs. I know that car crashes are the #1 killer of of people under 16 years old (CDC). So what's wrong with a little risk management and a guy trying to keep his kids safe where he knows they are at the most risk.

Its clear that 5Runner is looking to do just that, not wanting a parenting lesson.

Speaking of lessons: a few classes in vehicle dynamics and rudimentary Laws of Physics can really change one's perception in seat belt usage. Then again, if EMT classes don't do it, I'm not sure what will.

I hope your C spine heals well.

 

[Cackalak Han]

Yeah, I agree with azxplorer, modern safety features are leaps and bounds better than the old technology. Anyone not seeing this and/or not wanting it for the family is either ignorant and/or not a parent. I'll do everything I can to protect my family. While cuts and bruises are no problem, leaving my kid severely injured, permanently disabled, or dead is not something I'd want to deal with. I'll take all the necessary precautions to avoid that situation. Same goes for my personal protection as well. I want my kid to have a father growing up.

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