Seatbelt = New Rig?

[DaveInDenver]

Yeah, I agree with azxplorer, modern safety features are leaps and bounds better than the old technology. Anyone not seeing this and/or not wanting it for the family is either ignorant and/or not a parent.

You absolutely are right, that seat belts and everything make for safer cars and there's really no reason not to take advantage of them, especially for kids. On the Interstate and in the city, hard to argue against 3-point seat belts because lap belts are better than nothing at preventing getting thrown, but leave a whole lot to be desired from a pure safety aspect. They can cause injuries that might just as bad or worse than the wreck itself.

OTOH, I bought my truck specifically because it did /not/ have ABS. I had a pucker situation in my old Ranger with ABS when on gravel it detected a slip situation and the brake pedal went to the floor coming down a shelf road. Had I not had a fairly level head and jammed on the parking brake, who knows. I have not driven a car with ABS in the 12 years since and there have been plenty of snow days where the brake pedal pulsing technique dad taught me at 15 has worked. I also don't like airbags. When I wrecked our old Civic the airbags went off, which broke my nose. But in a very high speed head-on, I would take my chances with them instead of without. So I dunno.

 

[Klierslc]

Yeah, I agree with azxplorer, modern safety features are leaps and bounds better than the old technology. Anyone not seeing this and/or not wanting it for the family is either ignorant and/or not a parent. I'll do everything I can to protect my family. While cuts and bruises are no problem, leaving my kid severely injured, permanently disabled, or dead is not something I'd want to deal with. I'll take all the necessary precautions to avoid that situation. Same goes for my personal protection as well. I want my kid to have a father growing up.

New vs. Old

YouTube- Crash Test 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air VS. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu (Frontal Offset) IIHS 50th Anniversary

Not trying to be argumentative, but if you look at 1:25-1:28, The cars are lined up so that the front left frame rail in the Bel air has little effect. While this is a totally plausible crash scenario, it is probably the worst case scenario for the Bel air. Shift the point of impact a little more to center line and the driver of the Bel air would have fared significantly better. Also, in many other crash scenarios, the Bel air, would come out ahead (t-bone).

I am a believer in airbags and seatbelts and whatnot, but you have to take this video for what it is worth--it is an advertisement--"look at how much safer the new cars are" The most effective way to do that is to exploit the weakest point on the old car.....

Cool vid BTW.....

For the OP, is there a way to retrofit a later generation 4runner seat into yours?

 

[4Rescue]

Yup. I agree. Getting ejected from a vehicle builds character and if you don't do it once you've been coddled. RRRRRRRRRRIGHT!

I don't know if your ER includes a trauma room or not. I don't know if you've seen kid's lives inalterably and needlessly changed from car crashes on your EMT runs. I know that car crashes are the #1 killer of of people under 16 years old (CDC). So what's wrong with a little risk management and a guy trying to keep his kids safe where he knows they are at the most risk.

Its clear that 5Runner is looking to do just that, not wanting a parenting lesson.

Speaking of lessons: a few classes in vehicle dynamics and rudimentary Laws of Physics can really change one's perception in seat belt usage. Then again, if EMT classes don't do it, I'm not sure what will.

I hope your C spine heals well.

The reason accidents are the #1 killer of that age group may not have as much to do with seatbelts as it does BAD DRIVING and poor training and standards (texting while driving and never using your mirrors anyone??? And I'm not just talkign teen-agers...(their parents teach them these horrible things in one way or another ewither through complacency or bad examples set @ some point)... Not only that but most figures completely avoid the sheer number of accidents every day where there is no fatality or injury. It's called shock value. way to completely lose sight of the big picture as well as not read our subsequent convo where there are clearly no hard feelings and just opinions being expressed...

If you don't think kids are growing up softer and softer nearly every generation then you sir don't pay much attention... What do you think children of 100 years ago would think of our basic primal survival skills today??? Pretty sad in my book but then we don"t all share the same view of the world do we eh I've got a grandmother who's 104 (I'm currently her primary care giver while I recover fully to go back to what I love, helping people and saving lives/running in when others run out) and the things she's seen make her SO dissapointed in what we've become. I for one agree with her. Not to say there aren't good things to go along with the bad, and clearly people 100 years ago weren't the be all and end all of civilization and W/O fault of their own obviously.

I agree with Cakalackahan thought too, when you look at a cost break down to retro-fit/modify your current rig a 100 just makes great sence (and it's not like you don't end up with an amazing rig to boot eh). Unnless you LIKE headaches and compromises eh (something that always comes with modification and "home engineering" to some degree IMO) HAHHAHAHA


Hope you get things sorted so you can feel comfortable getting those kids out there exploring eh. Good on ya for that since in the end all this bickering really doesn't matter much when it's YOUR truck and worries, not mine. Be safe, but take risks and life will be grand. Glad to hear you're out showing the kids the world. I grew up with a father who took me rafting and taught me how to live off the land (wish I was doing more of that with my life now) and I can only say positive things about that.

Cheers

Dave

 

[DaveInDenver]

Cool vid BTW.

It's really sad that they destroyed that '59 Bel Air, looked like it was in great condition.

 

[yeti_in_ga]

I have two little ones and have moved from a newer 4 door tacoma to a 100s for more room. It still amazes me how much room is on the inside. The rear jump seats are easy to add and remove as needed. I am very happy with the truck and the v8 makes it all come together so nice. I will be driving one for a long time.

 

[4Rescue]

LOL! I remember one our first road trips as a kid, I was I think about 4 years old when my parents took us from St. Louis to Disney World in Florida. I napped on the rear cargo deck of our 1967 VW Type 3 fastback. How times have changed, my mom and dad would be thrown in prison these days. My first car at 16 was a 1956 Plymouth and dad and I upgraded the thing to lap belts, forget that it had a metal dash board and a wheel on a spear (otherwise known as the way, way, way before collapsible steering column). I wrecked that thing several times and somehow didn't die.

Oh I know what youm mean man, my first car was a 73 Dodge Dart 318 and there was a package "WELL" behind the back seat where I would ride all the time when I was young. It had stock lap-belts, but it had "shoulder belts" that were fixed and stored up above the doors on little clips. I'm pretty sure IF I'd have ever had a major wreck in that thing WITH the shoulder straps on I would have been cut in half. There was absolutely NO give or shock absorbtion to them. Course don't know if that qould have been worse then a chop to the forehead from the metal das with a nice "knife-like" profile to it... HHAHAHAHAHA ah those were the days eh.

Cheers

Dave

 

[4Rescue]

SOunds like a 100-Series is calling your name mate. Do the rear jump seats have shoulder belts as well??? I don't think I've ever really looked to see the center shoulder belts in them, it just seems so odd to me, but I guess they made it work and it sounds EXACTLY like what you're calling for.

CHeers

Dave

 

[tacollie]

I can vouch that the 100s rear seats are much more comfy. The only downside is the 100 is more cumbersome offroad but that can be overcome.

 

[Cackalak Han]

4Rescue, the rear jump seats do have shoulder belts. The 3rd row is for small kids, though. And with them down, there is hardly any cargo space.

 

[5Runner]

yeah, I have no need for the third row. I need that cargo area.

I think the land cruiser is the smartest long term decison for me...now it's just a matter of finding the right one and the way to pay for it. There are two available in my area with the rear locker (one of my requirements) and 150 to 180K miles.

It seems these can be very hard to find. I sort of feel like I should jump on one of them, but need to let this whole thing sit a bit so I don't feel like I'm rushing a big decision...

 

[Cackalak Han]

I found mine on ih8mud. What are they asking for them?

Also, don't underestimate the ATRAC system on the 00+ models. For what I'll be doing, it's probably all I'll need.

 

[hoser]

I'm guessing your father and mother (and even YOU) grew up in cars/trucks with no shoulder belts and you're here aren't you???

Logic fail. How would those who fared badly in a car accident respond to your post?

Here's a good link on lap belts and children.
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/lapbelts.aspx

 

[4Rescue]

A difference of opinion maybe and possibly some misunderstanding of how reality sometimes differs from our expectations. I have direct real-world experience with this stuff so I'll stick to my guns a bit.

People haven't stopped being killed daily in car accidents with as dramatic a down-turn as I'd expect when you compare the technology "gap" older cars/trucks have/had to over-come... Belive me, people are still dying and gettting injured DESPITE all of the technology. If epoeple are still stupid enough to NOT BE ABLE TO STOP A PRIUS from careening off the road "when the throttle sticks" (yeah right, as was stated in another publication - "...a prius has 100hp. I don't see that overpowering 4wheel disc brakes clamped down, and there was no indication in alot of cases that the drivers had even attempted to slam on the brakes...") then there are going to be dramitic life ending car-wrecks inspite of all these great new things we've invented.

I'm NOT SAYING that the OP shouldn't be concerned about his kids or that people can get hurt in car accidents I'm just saying good driver training is superior to technology ANY DAY imo. By all accounts I belive this Guy cares abot his kids and I'd be willing to bet he's a fairly aware driver. Somehow though I manage to keep an old, non-Abs, Non-traction control rig on the road through the worst of weather and as stated above I HAD a car with the scarriest form of "passenger restraint" I've ever seen (my 73 Dodge Dart Sport)...did people get killed in those cars? Yes... have people been killed in modern cars with 100+ Air-bags? Sure have, I've personaly scooped some of them up. EHll the air-bags go off and injure/kill rescue personell all the time too Want to know the prime contributing factor to nearly EVERY accident I've either scraped victims out of or put them back together from? : Poor understanding of the laws of physics (two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time)and a lack of concentration (odly enough alot of times at the end of two spectrums, the very old or the grossly inexperienced) at the task @ hand. If you don't pay attention and drive no ammount of nannies are gonna save you. I belive that firmly, but maybe I'm a bit jaded by my chosen profession. Sorry if that was rantish but hey, I am what I am. Not nessiscarily an angry person but a passionate one for sure eh.

In all honesty clearly the best solution for this particular situation to make this person feel better about taking his kids out exploring is to get a different rig or modify his own to HAVE that added seat-belts. SO he should do that. It's not gonna hurt my feeling if he does. I just threw out an observation that maybe was a bit abrassive??? Sorry.

Cheers

Dave

 

[5Runner]

Hey, guys...thanks so much for all the various responses and opinions...I would expect nothing less from an online forum. That's why I like posting questions on forums, because I want REAL opinions. Sure, 4Rescue (Dave), your responses are certainly opinionated, and I am very happy that you are sharing your HONEST feedback. I commend you for sharing what is obviously your real feelings on the matter...knowing they may be off the wall from the norm.

For the record, I think this has been a great and helpful thread for me, so nobody get upset or hot-headed, please. We all have something in common no matter what...vehicle dependent expeditions!

I know that there are always inherent dangers in life, and more so probably in civilized modern life. My problem is knowing there is something better than what I have. NO, I don't mean living like our throw-away society does...scraping a perfectly good cell phone for the next, slightly better version. Or suddenly soaps not good enough...you need "hand sanitizer" or the millions of other examples in our society where the minute something "better" comes on the market, our former "something" is suddenly and immediately "not good enough"...I hate that our "western" or "American" culture has become that...we think we're too good for just about everything...but that's a different rant.

My problem is when I try to rationalize the seat belt issue, I can't get past the "what if". I am a great and very careful driver, and even though I inspect my rig before every trip, doesn't mean a ball joint won't decide one day to go from "no play in the joint, it's all okay" to a sudden snap at 65 mph on the way to Moab. My driving doesn't stop the "whoever" from side swiping me when I am looking for cars the other way. I can be as attentative and alert as possible, but on a road with hundreds of other drivers passing by and interacting in close proximity to me from every angle...I can't dare be so proud as to think I have total control. Hell...I could have a heart attack or blood clot or any other weird event occur in my body that could inhibit my driving. I buy lotto tickets every so often, and the odds are far better we'll all die in a wreck...If I am willing to play the lotto odds, I have to be willing to accept the other odds in life. (it "could" happen to me). The "what if's" go on and on. If just ONE of those what if's occurred and my 8 year old daughter who would be selected for the middle seat just because she was 15 lbs heavier than her two-year younger brother was killed or injured worse than the rest of us...I would KNOW FOR A FACT that is was because I DECIDED to have her sit there....


"Sorry you can't run and play with your brothers in your wheelchair, but honey...you have to understand...I really loved that 4runner and had put so much after market money in it. I would still be paying the interest on the loan if I had bought that Land Cruiser...you understand, right?"

That haunts me...


It is that possibility that makes this problem a big deal. I mean, so what if the new Droid II is "better" than my Droid I...I am not going to run out and buy it because its better (like our society wants me to). Seatbelts...with 4 of them "better" than 1 of them...yup...I have to respond.

5-second rule? HA...not in my house. No germaphobe here...imune systems need practice. Cuts, scratches, bruises, bumps, falling in freezing cold creeks, tumbling down rock screes on above tree-line hikes, sunburned/windburned and sand in our eyes as we climbed 800 feet of sand dunes...My family does plenty that is dangerous and reminds us how great life is...but it is "equal-opportunity danger"...there is not one of the five of us that knowingly gets "more danger", as is the case with the lap belt.

This may really come down the the old adage...

...ignorance is bliss...

That's the bliss I had two weeks ago, before I knew what I now know. Would paralizing my daughter have been any better then...no...but I could probably "not forgive myself" LESS if I was just plain unaware, but now that I know...I cannot knowingly ignore it.

Okay...that was a rant if I've ever written one...

I should mention that my real fear is the highway drive to the trails, not the trails...but there is an experience I had that makes this even more "real" to me...though not a graphic EMT experience.

We where on some very mild trails in Colorado. We were crawling at less than 5mph...I mean the needle wouldn't even read accurate we were going so slow. This was last year, and I let my kids unstrap their car seats...thinking how udderly slow we were going. I should mention now that I have a homemade DVD player mounted on a peice of wood that connects between the two head rests. It essentially puts a dvd player right in front of the center seat. We rolled through a shallow water crossing, and on the other side, when I was expecting to bump up out of the creek, the front tire suddenly dropped into a hole and we came to a dead, dead stop...

...No exaggeration...a dead stop from 5mph max, sent all three of my kids flying forward, two smacked their heads on the back of our head rests and the center kid into the DVD player...hard enough to shatter the LCD screen. This was followed by a unison scream of crying that I never want to hear again in my life (just one child at a time please). It was a humbling moment for me, and humbling again after sharing the story here. Never again have they removed their seat belts...never again have I let them... Never again have they asked...

Yup...and I am an engineering student at night, only a year out of Physics I...I learned all about kinetics and momentum...and yet I guess I should have paid more attention in the Lab...since I apparantly just HAD to conduct my own lab "experiment" with my kids as the samples...just plain stupid.

So, top off all the stuff I have been reading about the damage to the body the force of a wreck can do in only a lap belt, with the very close understanding of how much force is created from the momentum of a mere 5 mph...

Okay guys, so I think I have explained my feelings and experiences with this. Lets let the "keep the lap belt" idea go to the way side, as that is not an option. Giving up trail-camping altogether and taking only our van to "gypsy" campgrounds would happen before that...and that ain't going to happen my friends. We are an expedition family for the long haul...my kids are already hooked, and I plan to keep it that way. My youngest is only 4, oldest 8, so I still have plenty of years left to start over my build with a LC and make sure we get our money's worth. It seems this is what I have decided...I can't keep forcing and modding the runner to do what it was not designed to do.

I have my eye on a 1999 LC with 148K and the rear locker for $12K. If I am very careful and consume a lot of time in how I sell my rig and aftermarket products, I "might" get enough for the LC. With my list of "must have" mods (ones that I put in the runner AFTER a difficult situation arose without it), It will cost me another $5 to $6K right off the bat, and that still won't make it a "bigger" yet equivalent rig to my runner. My runner is so, so personalized...

 

[Cackalak Han]

Good decision!! You will love the 100. As I've said, zero regrets from me. Make sure that rig has had the 90k mike service done. Usually costs around $1100-$1800. (timing belt, water pump, various seals). Good luck with the hunt.

Oh, I also avoided vehicles from the rust belt (midwest and northeast). Some of the vehicles I saw had heavy heavy rust underneath. Not something I'd want to deal with when I start wrenching.