Series Land Rover durability

Connie

Day walker, Overland Certified OC0013
We had a 1965 IIA which we treated with tender loving care. I mean how cool is it to have a vehicle that even if you have no battery you can crank start it? This vehicle was the essence of what it is to own a Land Rover.

It was my daily driver for about two months in the winter. The automatic windshield wipers didn't work so I had to use them manually (how many vehicles can you do that in). The breaks were bad and I had to pump them. I couldn't go any faster than the rest of traffic at rush hour, so it didn't really stress me out. The heater didn't work unless it was at least 70 degrees outside and then you couldn't shut it off, so I looked like the Stay Puff marshmallow man by the time I bundled up to drive to work. The turn signals didn't work and I had to stick my arm out the window in the freezing cold to signal. BUT-I never got stuck, if it was slick I could put it in low first and chug right up the hill, and it never left me stranded. Much swearing and raising and lowering of the hood at times, but never stranded. And I admit I was a little sad when we sold it to put all of the gear on our newer Rover.

"Land Rovers are like Mother in Laws - Always sick, but never dies."
 

TeriAnn

Explorer
Series reliability is a mater of recognizing where the weaknesses are, of putting the vehicle into top shape and keeping it there by religiously following the factory recommended maintenance procedures using top quality parts.

Series Land Rovers require frequent maintenance to stay in top shape.

There is a link to a copy of the factory maintenance schedule near the top of this page:

Series tune up specs

The schedule is in Adobe Acrobat format. If you are going to have a reliable Series Land Rover you need to get religious about the maintenance.

Now about the parts:

Frame - ladder box frame that is very strong but can be killed by rust. Salted roads are their downfall. Most of the time they rust from the inside out so if you galvanize a used frame there may be substantial rust damage already within. Replacement frames are readily available & by far the best are new galvanized ones. Best to own a pressure washer and pressurize the underside after each run in the mud or salt. Best to pay particular attention to the tops of the frame where mud can collect and sit.

Body Panels - Aluminum alloy with steel door frame parts, steel bonnet frame, steel bulkhead & steel radiator bulkhead. Genuine factory panels are thicker and stronger than aftermarket panels. Avoid taking the aluminum panels down to bare aluminum if you can when painting, You will never find a modern primer that adheres as well as the original factory primer. Protect the steel body parts as best as possible.

Engine - Heavy, low power (gutless) but very robust. Petrol and diesel versions share the same engine block design so the petrol engines are very robust and will usually keep running long after normal engines have worn out & expired.

Gearbox - The design was considered innovative then it was first introduced in 1934, but even though there has been several revisions to strengthen it the box is not all that robust for moving a 109. Parts are being discontinued for the SIIA gearboxes, and the NLA lay shaft sometimes break. You can still get all the parts for a SIII gearbox. Figure you should have less than 160 lbft of torque going through the boxes. The Series engine will bolt to a LT77S five speed gearbox but the length is too great for an 88. Ashcroft sells an adapter to fit a Series transfercase to the LT77S.

Transfercase - Really strong and very hard to kill if you keep oil in them.

Prop shafts - reasonably strong but very short slip joints. If you decide to play any suspension games have the propshafts rebuilt with long slip joints and high angle U joints. If you play with the front end for increased articulation best to take a divot out of the top front of the bulkhead transfercase directly below the front propshaft.

Front axle - about as strong as a Dana 44. Seldom gives trouble as long as you maintain them properly.

Rear axle - The 10 spline axles are too weak for serious off road travel, especially for a 109. One ton Land Rovers used ENV diffs & Series III 109's and Defender110s through 1993 used Salisbury rear diffs. The Salisbury is a Dana 60 built under license in the UK.

If have a 109 strongly consider a Salisbury upgrade. If you have an 88 you can buy 24 spine of bigger axles to fit inside the Rover housing. A must in my book. Salisbury drive shaft flanges don't break but they do wear & cause a drive train clunk when they are worn.

Diffs - Not very robust. An ARB or Trutrac is a much stronger replacement carrier and aftermarket 4.75:1 R&Ps are much more robust than the stock 4.7:1 R&P.

Steering - An important part of anyone's exercise programme. Robust if maintained. When you first get a Series rig pull the steering rod ends and inspect the inside of the tubes. They tend to rust from the inside so it never hurts to verify how much metal is there to start with.

Springs - the leaves tend to rust together and friction builds up. When in doubt replace them with new ones. Some people switch over to Parabolics. There are some good ones & some bad ones. Hystee automotive and Rocky Mountain are 2 brands with good reputations. Be sure to keep the U bolts torqued per the maintenance schedule.

Shocks - too short and the limiting factor for articulation when good springs are installed. The only real way to fix this is to relocate shock mounts so you can install longer shocks.

Electrical system - Points manufactured these days are poor quality and a constant source of problems. Consider a Pertronix system. The biggest problem with most Lucas electrical systems is oxidation of the connectors or switch contacts. Always carry electrical contact cleaner for switches & 400 grit sand paper for cleaning up bullet connectors. It never hurts to keep a collection of barrel connectors & just swap out the oxidized one when sanding down the bullet connector. A positive earth combination ignition and light switch is designed to handle the current from stock wattage lamps & only about 13 amps max on the switched electrics. You get maximum reliability if you add relays for the headlights and add a relay to run all the switched electrics.

Use Lucas fuses. UK fuses are rted differently than US fuses. A 30 AMP US fuse will handle much more currant than a 35 AMP Lucas fuse.

The stock generator can not handle the power draw of 2 wiper motors, a Kodiak heater on high and headlamps. Think Alternator conversion. A Delco with built in regulator usually works best.

Brakes - They work OK and are reliable if you follow the factory maintenance schedule. Both front shoes on a 109 are leading shoes which gives your three pairs of shoes stopping your 109 in the forward direction but only a single pair stopping you in the rearwards direction. A 109 can be real hard to hold stationary in a steep nose up attitude. I consider front disc brakes to be a safety upgrade for 109s used in the mountains. Never Mix US and UK brake fittings. They fit together but are incompatible.

Thats mostly it. Take care of your equipment and it will take care of you. Series Land Rovers are the tinker toys of the 4X4 world and can easily be modified to fit your needs. They are very simple to work on. Most experienced mechanics call them seriously overbuilt when they first look at a Series Land Rover. Except for the rear axles, Rover diffs and gearbox they are right. They will take a lot of punishment and will keep going long past when most other vehicles die from lack of maintenance. You just have to remember to maintain them if you want them to be in top dependable condition.

They are primitive, noisy, drafty and leak. If you can't overlook these minor attributes and be blinded instead by the Charisma, a Series rig is not for you.

Car and Driver magazine best summed up a Series and Rover in a 1964 new vehicle performance review "A Land Rover is less a car than a state of mind"
 

haven

Expedition Leader
thanks

Thanks TeriAnn and everyone for the input. Sounds like staying on top of preventive maintenance and keeping the cargo weight down are the keys to happiness with the Series machines.

Chip Haven
 

01001010

Adventurer
TeriAnn! THANK YOU VERY MUCH for that post! I just purchased a 109 and that info is going to be beneficial when the rebuild starts.
 

overlander

Expedition Leader
Geez TeriAnn, how do you know so much? Now I know what you're reading whenever you talk about sipping a glass of wine in the back of the 109....the manual!
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
overlander said:
Geez TeriAnn, how do you know so much? Now I know what you're reading whenever you talk about sipping a glass of wine in the back of the 109....the manual!
She knows because she's replaced just about every part on her Rover at one time or another. Firsthand experience is better than any manual, but often more painful.
 

TeriAnn

Explorer
overlander said:
Geez TeriAnn, how do you know so much?

Gee, you know that didn't even scratch the surface of what I know about Series II 109 Land Rovers.

In 2 months I will have owned my Land Rover for 30 years. When I first bought her and towed her home I didn't know much about working on them but I quickly found a retired British car shop owner who was willing to mentor me. His shop was an authorized warranty repair shop for Series Land Rovers and he learned his mechanics by going through the old school UK mechanic apprentice programme. He and I used to spend hours chatting about land Rovers over tea and biscuits when we were not out in his home shop.

I'm a firm believer that if one is going to take a rig where the tow trucks don't go that one should learn to fix anything that might break. So I studied and practiced. My Land Rover has given me lots of opportunity to practice over the past 30 years. When I purchased The Green Rover she was completely worn out and had been sitting for a couple years under some redwoods. The previous owner had inherited the vehicle and didn't know to put oil anywhere but the engine. When the rear diff went dry he drove it in 4WD until the transfercase went dry. So I had things to learn about from day 1.

I've personally rebuilt everything on that Land Rover at least twice. Except I don't do diffs. I farm them out to be setup. My mentor told me that they are straight forward if there is no wear but they can be tricky if you need to compensate for gear wear and you need to get the tolerances just right.

I've only gone through 6 diffs in the last 30 years. Not enough to get good at it so I haven't tried.

I should have married a Land Rover mechanic and stuck to Land Rover interior design and cooking on the trail, but somehow that just never happened. So I'm stuck hiding grease under my nails with nail polish.
 

4Rescue

Expedition Leader
Connie said:
"Land Rovers are like Mother in Laws - Always sick, but never dies."

:wings: :wings: :wings:

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA... such a great quote...

Oh and nice serenity quote in your sig too btw. I wish they'd make more episodes or even another movie.




OK, BUT... I'll apologize in advance, but seriously, while I love the nostalgia and the look and yadda yadda about Old Rovers, anything that take that long to sum up how to safely opperate on for a long period of time just can't, by anyones standard, be considered majorly reliable/dependable.

Did they change alot of things from the series II to Series III? Like the Axle? and the Gearbox? I mean it's not like you said ..hey, the body tends to fall apart. Pretty much every major drive-train part outside of the front axle and the engine block had some caveat or major limiting factor.

Is there a good site like brian894x4's for Rovers? Something that really lays out what was what from year to year cause I really want to know more about these trucks, but like anything that's been around that long there's alot of info to digest.

I don't mean this as duragotory, but alot of this is why I'm so diehard about Toyotas, frankly they're pretty much "set it and forget it" rigs. Nearly everything is overbuilt for the payload of the truck and they just keep going with little to no maintinence.

Either way, like I said, I'm becoming a real Old Rover fan, if for nothing else than every time I see the few running around Portland the guy/gal driving is having a great time and we usualy catch eachother checking out oneanothers trucks. That and they imediately make me start dreaming of Africa and dying to get back to Australia. I guess either way, it really doesn't matter, I just always find it odd when people throw down and get angry/defensive about Rovers durability. They have capability, but like nearly ANYthing the Pom's "engineered" they take alot of TLC to keep inline. And I will admit that while it's not always what you want, even being able to limp home at 3mph is better than being stuck on the side of a road (or no road ;) ) with a motor that is perfectly fine, but some computer says it isn't so you're not going anywhere (although I drive a 22RE Toyota so that never really happens either ;) )...

So blah blah vlah... this is a great thread, and has definately taught me more about Rovers. thanks to all.

Cheers

Dave
 
Last edited:

stevenmd

Expedition Leader
4Rescue said:
OK, BUT... I'll apologize in advance, but seriously, while I love the nostalgia and the look and yadda yadda about Old Rovers, anything that take that long to sum up how to safely opperate on for a long period of time just can't, by anyones standard, be considered majorly reliable/dependable.


Dave
Dave... you will never get it until you own a rover. Come join the dark side Dave. Lucas is waiting for you...:costumed-smiley-007
 

revor

Explorer
Having owned lots of old trucks in cluding Toyota's, Dodge's, Jeeps, and Rovers. I can say that in terms of reliabilty they are no different than the others I've owned. At least in the older versions. All the components of these old workhorses require attention, not continuous, but attention. My M47 had no less than 42 Zirk fittings that HARD to be greased every couple thousand miles or so. My Early FJ40's where much the same, FC jeeps and even my Ex Goverment CJ had maintenance schedules we would consider silly in these times.
Once you get on the "schedule" and stay on it (less ridiculess than my M47) they are really reliable.

The land Rover is designed to get there, and they always do.

That said I loved the reliability of my '78 Toyota Hilux 4x4. Last I heard it's still running with some 300K on the clock.
 

James86004

Expedition Leader
4Rescue said:
:wings: :wings: :wings:

I don't mean this as duragotory, but alot of this is why I'm so diehard about Toyotas, frankly they're pretty much "set it and forget it" rigs. Nearly everything is overbuilt for the payload of the truck and they just keep going with little to no maintinence.

One of my friends bought a brand new Land Cruiser in 1970, and his buddy bought a brand new Land Rover, and they went a lot of places together while they were attending Northern Arizona University. His Toyota broke more often than the Land Rover. However, when his Toyota broke, he could always get it fixed at the dealer quickly. When the Rover broke down, they frequently had to wait weeks or months for parts.
 

Andrew Walcker

Mod Emeritus
4Rescue said:
Either way, like I said, I'm becoming a real Old Rover fan, if for nothing else than every time I see the few running around Portland the guy/gal driving is having a great time and we usualy catch eachother checking out oneanothers trucks. That and they imediately make me start dreaming of Africa and dying to get back to Australia. I guess either way, it really doesn't matter, I just always find it odd when people throw down and get angry/defensive about Rovers durability. They have capability, but like nearly ANYthing the Pom's "engineered" they take alot of TLC to keep inline. And I will admit that while it's not always what you want, even being able to limp home at 3mph is better than being stuck on the side of a road (or no road ;) ) with a motor that is perfectly fine, but some computer says it isn't so you're not going anywhere (although I drive a 22RE Toyota so that never really happens either ;) )...

So blah blah vlah... this is a great thread, and has definately taught me more about Rovers. thanks to all.

Cheers

Dave

Oh Dave, you are going down the slipery slope to the dark side, resistance is futile:) I've owned (notice past tense) a 40, two 55s, 62 and an 80 and miss them all. All I can say is that the 40 and 55s were the only ones that could make me smile almost as much as I do when driving the 90. I've been watching your post over the last year and you are slowly coming around, just a few more degrees and the right old LR and you are a write-off. :26_7_2:
 

TeriAnn

Explorer
James86004 said:
One of my friends bought a brand new Land Cruiser in 1970, When the Rover broke down, they frequently had to wait weeks or months for parts.

Land Rover left North America in 1974 with minimal parts support. Also in the 70's Land Rover made a break from the British Leyland umbrella. Both events caused parts to be very hard to find in the US and very expensive. The mid late seventies and early eighties were dark times for North American Land Rover owners. A lot of vehicles fell into serious disrepair during that decade.

These days multiple US sources are an 800 number away and delivery of most parts are at UPS speed.
 

James86004

Expedition Leader
4Rescue said:
:wings: :wings: :wings:

Did they change alot of things from the series II to Series III? Like the Axle? and the Gearbox? I mean it's not like you said ..hey, the body tends to fall apart. Pretty much every major drive-train part outside of the front axle and the engine block had some caveat or major limiting factor.

Dave

Having owned both, there was very little change from Series IIA to III. The biggest difference was the III had a different firewall and dash. The dash moved the instruments in front of the driver, but was also plastic.

The transmission went to full synchromesh from just synchro on 3rd & 4th. Either transmission is just fine behind a stock engine.

The long wheelbase models got the Salisbury axles standard starting with the Series III.

Except for the rear axle problems, I don't think any of the weaknesses manifest themselves in a stock vehicle until they have well over 100,000 miles. And when I was a kid, any vehicle with over 100,000 miles was a worthless, worn out piece of junk.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
188,506
Messages
2,905,997
Members
230,547
Latest member
FiscAnd
Top