Simple dual batteries for expedition vehicles

[whatcharterboat]

3 v1 stage

Dhackney said "One issue that has not been discussed in this thread is the advantages of having a three stage charging system vs. single stage. This can have a big effect on the life of AGM batteries. A dedicated, external voltage regulator can offer three stage charging that you can program to exactly match the characteristics of your battery bank. Those kilt batteries may have been hastened to the battery great beyond by simple single stage charging.”

Hi Doug, There are obviously some very switched on guys on this forum who could comment on this. So I hope I don't crash and burn here but I'll just say that from my knowledge of 3 stage external regulators they are an excellent way to charge batteries if you have to run your truck engine to do this because they will do the bulk/absorption thing in the shortest possible time before they go into float. And you can also specify what type of battery is being catered for so that the charge goes from one stage to the next at the correct interval to extend the battery life. And I’m guessing yours also has a temperature probe on the battery bank for even finer charge control.

However, it may not be accurate to describe the standard alternator as a single stage charger because they vary their current output in a curve from bulk to float rather than in 3 distinct stages. They won’t do what yours can do because the current output falls away in a shorter time frame (too short) so it takes much longer to achieve a full charge (or float voltage). Bulk to absorption is Ok but they take so long to reach float. No problem at all if you’re heading off down the road for cruise. It’ll be all good when you pull up, but say your solar is not keeping up and you have to run the engine specifically for the purpose of charging. Your system is by far superior in that situation.

Our battery supplier tells us that the AGMs’ we use (Fullriver) will accept virtually the same charging rates as flooded lead acid however I always set everything to “gel” rather than “flooded” if I have an option just to be on the safe side. These are the only AGM’s I use. If someone has a more informed opinion please, please jump in here. So a correctly operating standard alternator shouldn’t really be the cause of the “klit” AGM’s because it shouldn’t charge them quick enough to do the damage. Maybe they were just cycled too low and too often as Chip has discussed.

Certainly one of the biggest serial killers of all types of batteries is the true 1-stage/el-cheapo plug-in battery charger. So don’t even consider anything else other than a 3stage charger in that situation (especially if it’s long term such as when the vehicle is in storage).

 

[whatcharterboat]

Links

Hi Doug, Sorry about the wrong link. Doh.

Try this for the Bep terminal links.

http://www.bepmarine.com/Solid-Terminal-Link-10mm-227-1518.htmle

This interesting because our supplier BLA is showing the next generation of BEP products which is the "Wave" and the Bep site shows the old "Contour". All their stuff is good. Have a look at their Circuit breaker panels. We don't bother with the battery management stuff though cause that should already be in your solar reg if you've got a good one. You can specify which amperage Cb's you want in a panel and they will custom build them. Extra 2 or 3 week wait.

I don't have any pics of the links but I have to start wiring one monday fortnight so I'll post some pics then if you like. Have a look at the battery bin pic in the thread on the Powermaker.

 

[ntsqd]

I've no working knowledge of the more sophisticated charging methodologies, but I do think that those batteries that I killed might have lasted longer with something more evolved than a standard automotive Delco regulator.

That said, what I think really killed them was the OE uncommon grounding points. I've not idea what the resistance across two brackets and a small block Chevy engine block might be, but I'll assume that it isn't insignificant to long paralleled battery life. The replacement set of batteries has lasted nearly as long without showing any signs of deterioration. The difference was in re-wiring the grounding. The combiner switch now switches the grounds rather than the hots, forcing a common ground point.

I have read of more sophisticated external regulators, but have no idea if they require their own alternator or if they can be retrofitted to some existing alternators. I would be interested in one that could be fitted to CS series Delcos as I seem to have a lot of those on vehicles.

The VSR showed up last night. Impressive in it's surprisingly small packaging. Footprint is about the same as a Ford type starting solenoid. Installation will have to wait until the dual battery conversion of the FJ60.

 

[dhackney]

I’m guessing yours also has a temperature probe on the battery bank for even finer charge control.

Yes, we do have temp probes on every charger that supports them:
- Balmar voltage regulator
- Xantrex inverter/charger
- Blue Sky solar controller/charger

Our 220V/50-60Hz charger does not support a temp probe but does have a 3 position slide switch to select the battery temp.

As has been pointed out, it is very challenging to replace specific AGM batteries out here, so I tried to include everything I could to extend our batteries' life, such as the temp probes.

Along those lines, I programmed the inverter/charger, voltage regulator and the solar controller/charger to match our batteries' specific characteristics (amp hour capacity, charge state parameters, charge stage voltages, etc.). I also bought the dealer service network interface kit for our inverter/charger so I could configure the internal parameters that are not accessible via the control panel.

Our 220V/50-60Hz charger is a three stage charger and offers battery type and temp selection switches, but is otherwise non-programmable. Fortunately, its AGM charging characteristics are compatible with our batteries.

I think it is a good idea to leverage whatever capabilities your voltage regulator, charger/controller, inverter/charger offers in the way of setup/programming to match your battery characteristics and requirements.

 

[dhackney]

I've no working knowledge of the more sophisticated charging methodologies, but I do think that those batteries that I killed might have lasted longer with something more evolved than a standard automotive Delco regulator.

...

I have read of more sophisticated external regulators, but have no idea if they require their own alternator or if they can be retrofitted to some existing alternators. I would be interested in one that could be fitted to CS series Delcos as I seem to have a lot of those on vehicles.

Check out these regulators: http://www.balmar.net/page14-Regulatorsmain.html

We used a MaxCharge 612-H (includes the harness). Based on what I recall from the installation instructions they will work with any common alternator.

Product manuals including the 612 are here: http://www.balmar.net/Page53-manuals.html

 

[dhackney]

Try this for the Bep terminal links.

http://www.bepmarine.com/Solid-Terminal-Link-10mm-227-1518.htmle

This interesting because our supplier BLA is showing the next generation of BEP products which is the "Wave" and the Bep site shows the old "Contour". All their stuff is good. Have a look at their Circuit breaker panels. We don't bother with the battery management stuff though cause that should already be in your solar reg if you've got a good one. You can specify which amperage Cb's you want in a panel and they will custom build them. Extra 2 or 3 week wait.

I don't have any pics of the links but I have to start wiring one monday fortnight so I'll post some pics then if you like. Have a look at the battery bin pic in the thread on the Powermaker.

Hey John - you've got a roll on with these web links. You need to remove the trailing e on the this one.

The links look fantastic and an implementation of ganged battery control devices interconnected with them would be so much more reliable and probably suffer much less voltage loss than one interconnected with cable and crimp connectors.

I hope that these guys and Blue Sea Systems, etc. come up with a way to make wiring the breaker panels cleaner. The end result is great, but at least with BSS you end up with a lot of wiring interconnects.

I was not happy with the aesthetics of this rat's nest and I sure would never have shown it to my grandfather.

I don't know if BEP offers a panel like this as a stock part but they might be able to create one for you. It combines AC and DC in one panel. The innovative feature is the ability to cross feed two different AC busses into either side of the AC groups. It makes it extremely simple to move the genset feed back and forth between the dedicated genset group, e.g. air con, and the AC breakers normally fed by the inverter. It has proven to be a life saver for us and another example of the real-world redundancy requirements of overlanding.

Another feature I'd recommend is a digital meter that includes multiple functions. I put multi-meters in the AC side on this distribution panel and on the one in the electrical systems compartment. They allow me to punch up amps, frequency or voltage. This is a tremendous help when analyzing shore power, generator output, inverter output, etc.

Sorry, getting a ways off topic here.

 

[Speaker]

I don't really see a problem with my setup....Open hood, select desired battery(ies) to use or charge via a Blue Sea selector switch, and drive away.
Dave

Want to help me set up one? I've got beer! :friday:

 

[whatcharterboat]

3 stage

NTSQD Yep. Bad earths would have done for sure. Sorry for making the wild assumption. Blame the Chevy. That sounds good.

Dhackney said “Our 220V/50-60Hz charger is a three stage charger and offers battery type and temp selection switches, but is otherwise non-programmable. Fortunately, its AGM charging characteristics are compatible with our batteries.”

Doug, of course we usually have the same available parameters that we can adjust on most things (including the “internal dealer only” ones you mentioned) and the 3 stage chargers we use are also similar in that we cannot set them to a specific size battery bank. So it’s important to try to select the closest size (rated output current) of charger to suit a specific size of battery bank (capacity in amp hours). So the loose formula I use is 10:1. As an example that green truck had a battery bank of 660 amphours @ 12 volts so we sourced a quality 3 stage marine charger made near Sydney that was rated at 60Amps. Battery life is shortened when they are charged too quickly (mainly distortion from heat). I’m sure you already knew this but I said it anyway for others sake.

When that green truck was done, chargers were still based on the old school transformers. Now with switch mode technology the package is so much more compact and extremely light by comparison. They are also do a lot more for less money (such as being able to charge 3 separate banks at once while maintaining full separation) and as a rule don’t introduce any noise. I find some of the electronics coming out of China are amazing. Definitely one thing they do well.

BTW I loved the spaghetti pic you posted. Straightaway I thought of a FBI agent diffusing a bomb. “Do I cut the red wire or the Blue??? Oh No!!!! I can’t tell. They’re all covered in black loom tube!!” Kaboom.

I’m guessing the orange ones were the live AC.

 

[whatcharterboat]

AC/DC "Long way to the shop"

Hi Doug. We seem to be out of phase with our replies (pun intended). The spaghetti comment for the earlier pics but after the last ones I’m going to have to call your granddad and let the poor old guy know what you’ve been up to.

Sure Bep do a huge range of typical AC and DC distribution panels or can custom build and their battery metering is pretty cool in the way it factors in the Peukertz (spelling???) equation to calc the amp/hrs and out.
http://www.bla.com.au/index.php?fn=...8&eId=10&sId=364b77758679ac678374a60d0969bf05

The BLA “hardcover” cattle dog is alot more detailed than the online one but have a look around this site anyway. It looks more up to date than the BEP site. The hardcover version also has more detail and diagrams about selecting the correct size links for the battery switches and you get a much clearer idea of how it all comes together.

Links are a great way to go. Good for linking batteries too. Say you want to join three AGM’s together. Just line em up and bolt down a couple of bars (25x5 S/Steel is fine) with 4 holes over the top and bolt your cable lug into or through the extra hole. Go over it with some battery terminal protector spray; slide some of that loom tube you’ve got laying around over the bar for a bit of added safety and hey presto. No more stuffed terminals, resistance causing different or inefficient charging, etc . Way neater. BTW our AGM’s don’t have posts. Just tapped holes in the top with 8mm bolts so it may be a little easier with this setup but you can still do it with studs sticking up from battery clamps.

Dhackney said “Sorry, getting a ways off topic here”.

Maybe I should have done a “Simple AC for expedition vehicles” post to begin with. We have done a complete turn around in the last couple of years regarding AC. We used to go down a very complex path (mindset carried over from wiring yachts, trawlers, military marine stuff, etc) that would add literally $ks to the cost of the vehicle and it also has to be certified here as part of its roadworthiness adding further complexity.

While we still give the full works as an option we also offer a complete “Poverty Pack”. I am sure this will shock you, but now in a typical truck, our entire AC system may consist of 3 or 4 Extension leads and Power Boards literally bought from the hardware on the corner or even the local supermarket. It is still very neat and mainly concealed. If I had to, I could actually rip out and replace all the AC wiring whilst in some outback town at the tip of Cape York and get back to catching Barrumundi within the hour.

So with your genset and inverter in close proximity you just plug the power board (a good “protected” one though) into whatever source you desire or run a mains lead over and plug the board into that. Everyone who has had that option here has gone that way so far including one RTW truck. It had very basic AC needs in comparison so it is not a good one to learn from and therefore I would be very interested in your opinion of this, given your RTW experience so far. Not to mention the extensive research undertaken to get you there.

I included some more pics of the interior of the truck (with the Powermaker) to show you that it was not all Poverty and one of some AC to give you an idea. The RCD/circuit breaker in this case was something that the clients insurance company specified so the double pole RCD/CB combo was connected to the GPO you can see, however they are still plugged into the inverter mounted directly above and not hard wired.

We have a customer based here in Noosa, but at the moment he is up on Cape York and the Gulf country. He has the “Poverty Pack” AC and a very neat BEP DC system so if you want some pics I’ll post em when he returns in a couple of months.

 

[dhackney]

John,

I love the concept of the "poverty pak." As you said, you could rebuild the entire system at the tip of the cape. That is very, very important in a RTW scenario.

One thing I like about it is that it gives you inherent "patch bay" capability to plug whatever you've got into whatever you need however you want to. Things tend to happen out here, so having flexibility is a very good thing, given the knowledge required to connect things properly.

I don't know if you can get batteries in the U.S. with tapped holes and bolts. The usual choices are studs (3/8" positive and 5/16" negative) or posts. Either way, bars are a much better way to connect them than cables. Compare the clean and low resistance system you described with what we ended up with.

If you could post some pictures of professionally installed electrical systems that would really help people who are considering designing and building a system. Specifically, I'm thinking of photos of the back side of things; showing how the components, batteries, etc. are tied together; how you route, bind and lable circuits; etc.,

I did not and do not build these systems for a living. Ours was a first time effort and reflects all the typical mistakes you make the first time you do anything; plus reflects the lack of professional, day to day, knowledge and execution that a professional system designer and builder brings to the table.

If people could see how a professionally designed and built system looks that would help them establish a standard to shoot for, a goal to achieve in their own work.

And BTW, you were right. On our vehicle the orange circuits can kill you.

And for my grandpa, you are unfortunately a few years too late to get the chance to speak with him. He would have welcomed it, as he was incredibly curious about the world and its people. He would have had a lot of questions about Oz for you.

But if I was going to show him something from our rig, it would probably be the 12VDC relay panel instead of the spaghetti works on the back of the AC/DC distribution panel.

Please keep the images of your company's work coming. They are a wonderful inspiration to everyone who is dreaming of, designing or building and overland expedition vehicle.

Doug

 

[whatcharterboat]

Italian Food

Ours was a first time effort and reflects all the typical mistakes you make the first time you do anything; plus reflects the lack of professional, day to day, knowledge and execution that a professional system designer and builder brings to the table.

Doug you are wrong. This is all in your head. So all pasta jokes aside. I'm sure that everyone in this forum would agree that your workmanship and what you have created reflects nothing but quality through attention to detail and professionalism through research and settling for nothing less than the best components, equipment, tools,etc.. That's what I see anyway.

I don't want to get off topic. I know we seem to having our own little party here, but I'm sure there are lots of guys in the background reading along so I'll try to keep it to the electrics.

The reality for most manufacturers is that there is always a fine line between what should be done, what you can get away with and what the client is willing to pay for. I'm very lucky in that my employer is prepared to pay for the labour it takes to go the extra step. I'm certain he would like to be remembered for the quality/uniqueness more than the volume. Electrics aren't really his fortay either so I try to keep that area to the same standard as the rest of the truck. You know that $1 coke / $5 marine coke mentality. Everything else in the motorhomes is yacht standard, so...

While there are a huge number of motor home builders and bus builders here, only a couple venture into offroad gear and usually only as a one off. 4x4 heavy trucks are all we do and therefore we really only have one serious competitor. They are on the leftside of the country and they build a good (but very different) product to an extremely tight budget. We aim for the top end of the market and only sometimes will we both quote on vehicles in the middle. So to be competitive we are always looking at cutting costs while actually improving the end product at the same time.

The Bep switch panels are an excellent example of this. I put in some old pics of a panel I did 20 years ago. Something I hope my grandad doesnt see either. In those days we would laminate Black and transulcent white acrylic sheet and get it engraved with the circuit names and backlight it all so lettering would illuminate at night. This one should have been smaller. Not my fault. One tip while I look at this pic, is if you do a panel like this, bring all the cables to the back of the panel in one supported bundle and leave plenty of slack to allow the panel to swing open. Much less chance of wiring coming astray later or breaking when you want to get in there for whatever reason.

How much easier are the new systems such as Bep with comprehensive label sheets, modular format, interchangeability of cb's etc.

Before I started here, all of the electrics were subcontracted out to a harness builder. (A good friend now who also specializes in rewiring rods and integrating modern computerised engines into old cars). So 6 years on I still prefer to use prewired harnesses and sub boards for our buses and as we are looking at releasing a new "Production" RTW expedition type vehicle very shortly we intend to finally use a harness in it as well. So with a harness similar to a car the labour costs are reduced while having a reliable, neat and fast system. Also alot less material is used. We intend to incorporate plenty of spares for future expansion but sometimes it's hard to know what the future will bring (as far as electronic options).

We have looked at c-bus or can-bus digital wiring sytems but have'nt been able to justify the need to drink that sort of Coke yet. I think $5 coke is just right for a quality expedition truck.

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of pics showing the "backside" of the electrics. The recent ones I do have aren't that different to yours anyway but as I said I am just about to do one when I finish this Uni assigment. Maybe 10 days away. I have ordered most of the gear and intend to do things a little differently in that this will be a 12v system on a 24v truck. The first one I've done that way. I have steered away from this in the past prefering to go all 24v with a VSR for dual battery charging but with the daily evolution of electronics, well.....We've found another way worth the venture.

I will try and do a pictorial record of the wiring as it goes and maybe do a post at the end. It is much the same size as the one with the "Poverty Pack. It's in the paintshop at the moment. Obviously no windows cut in yet. See the pic.

 

[Michael Slade]

Wow, those panels look sweet, and not only that, I'll bet they work well too. Wow.

I read about people asking questions about the BEP stuff. I bought my two pieces, the VSR and the batt. cut-off and installed them with two red-tops in my CrewCab.

Very simple. It had to be...I don't have any idea what I'm doing. Anyway, here it is:

 

[dhackney]

Doug you are wrong. This is all in your head. So all pasta jokes aside. I'm sure that everyone in this forum would agree that your workmanship and what you have created reflects nothing but quality through attention to detail and professionalism through research and settling for nothing less than the best components, equipment, tools,etc.. That's what I see anyway.

John,

Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it. All I can say is that I tried to get better as I went along (compare the AC/DC breaker panel, which was one of the first things I did, with the 12VDC relay panel, which was one of the last) and I tried to bring my work up to a level within a few light years of our fabricator, Mark Johnson.

I don't want to get off topic. I know we seem to having our own little party here, but I'm sure there are lots of guys in the background reading along so I'll try to keep it to the electrics.

Agreed. What I was trying to express was how much it helps for anyone designing or building for the first time to have a specification, an image, or a goal, to try and emulate. For instance, if I had been looking at a photo of the back of your breaker panel I could have done a better job when it came time to do mine. (Although, in all honesty, I had seen the back side of well wired yacht distribution panels and even watched a master electrician finish off the loom for one at a factory. I don't have any excuses there.)

IMO, anything you can share with the community along those lines that would not weaken your competitive position is a very good thing.

Thank you for your willingness to contribute and I look forward to anything you can share regarding industry best practices, proven designs and example installations in the future.

Doug

 

[whatcharterboat]

Doug

Thanks Doug.

I was just about to post a thread starter on short wheelbase FG's in that forum when I read about Brent's news. Everything seemed a bit trivial after that. So I'm going to drop out for a week and leave it all till then.

Take care. John.

 

[dhackney]

I read about Brent's news. Everything seemed a bit trivial after that.

John,

Understood. That was a real body blow down here as well.

I hope that all of you there can take solace in the fact that what you do, every day, enables people to really live, really experience what life has to offer, in its fullest extent.

What you do, every day, provides experiences that allow people, many for the first time ever, to discover what life is really about.

What you do, every day, creates transportation platforms that get people out away from civilization, in touch with nature and its non-human creatures.

From what I can see on Brent's tribute site, I think she would have appreciated that.

Doug