SOA fj55

[cruiseroutfit]

Designing a setup to handle well on washboard shouldn't be an issue imo, with the right springs (much harder to do with a FJ55 of course), one can rally just fine though the washboard. My 40 rides "almost" as nice as my Tacoma does in washboard. I say FJ55's are harder as you don't have as many spring options. As a general rule I am NOT a fan of using a traditional (thick) add-a-leaf in an SOA pack. It makes them stiff and bound to suffer on ride, rather I prefer to use extra leafs (from similar leaf pack donors) to supplement the springs used in an SOA conversion. I ran stock cruiser springs with an extra main leaf (sheared off the wraps) for 6 years sucsessfully. They lasted far longer than I expected, lot of load, over a hundred trips, Rubicon, Moab, etc... flawless. Finally this past summer I broke a front main leaf. While I could have just used a donor mainleaf to rebuild that pack, I gave in and went with modified OME packs on all 4 corners... couldn't be happier Of course that options is a bit harder to implement on an FJ55, doable, but harder.

 

[taco chaser]

Wow, I have gone over this similar subject with the Tacoma group about a sprung over SAS set up being able to perform just as good if not better in some situations than stock Tacoma junk, if set up properly, and the whole idea of why limit your vechicle to one style of offroading if possible not too. They all think i'm full of ****. :ylsmoke: It's good to read all your guy's feed back on this even though they are different rigs.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Kurt I agree with that too to an extent but no matter how I built it, it could either take a real load or handle well on the wash boards but not both. When I built it I had soft, medium, and firm setups. I'm sure you remember when it was soft... It handled like a Cadillac The Firm worked great for everything except it did sort of take bumps poorly on the freeway and correct, washboards were aweful. But the characteristics of it were the best so I went that route. I think a balance can be found but I couldn't or there was always a compromise. Maybe that is the way it always is, I dunno... I'm not sure if you recall but I had the 55 dialed so it had almost no sway, I was able to tow cars, etc. I really wanted a SOA Land Cruiser that utilized the best of the "land cruiser" in that it was a workhorse that could take a real load first, but a wheeler too but second as it was a DDer. I towed a 10K trailer with a full size jeep to SLC once with that suspension setup and it just killed it, so I was really proud of it. And then it would go and spank pritchett with that same setup too and have more good usable articulation than most other trucks out there. Not saying your setup wouldn't do that too (probably would just fine) but as well as it works there is noticable sway particularly with your hard top on. It handles awesome but is probably more than most would prefer or would take some time to get used before they drove it the way you do So your leaf setup might work. My choice of the long softer add-a-leafs also helped lower the truck as much as possible as each extra leaf approx equals 1/4" of lift. Thiss said even with this approach I was never able to get less than 8 leafs and have a truly universal leaf approach. Just too much sag with a real load (where the front would be up and the *** lower). So I eventually had to add even one more add-a-leaf. This setup would rival a good OME setup for load carrying though...

- Main Leaf - OEM
- Secondary/Military Wrap OEM Leaf
- Long aftermarket add-a-leaf
- 2nd long aftermarket add-a-leaf
- Then 3 OEM leafs
- And one 'Jeff Zepp style' short stubby add-a-leaf that I gladly 'killed/softened' when I was running it with only 5 leaves that still works great for this application.... This helps for bigger loads too I suppose...


I worked and worked and was never able to get it dialed as such, which again is why I'm turning to coils. Particularly on a lighter pickup though a soft SOA leaf setup would be just fine. But I think especially up front coils are probably the ticket, if possible, I dunno...

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Also one more thing is shocks. My first shocks were the Doetsch tech 3000shocks which are good and soft but produced too much sway. I went with the nitrogen charged Pro Comp 9000s that they use on pickups. It handled great but still did not take a load. After I added the strong leaf pack I should have probably pulled those shocks for something still N-charged but softer valving more like an OME shock, I dunno.. But never got around to it before I sold it. So this may have affected my washboard performance as well.

The big reason I'm choosing radius arm is not only because it will be the easiest coil setup for higher speed performance as well. A post from Pirate that I had a week or two ago:

_________________________________________

Here is an awesome FJ40 built mostly for speed but wheeling too. Also uses a radius arm setup.
http://www.samcofabrication.com/projects/main.php?g2_itemId=176

From an old post the guy who built it writes:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6880469&postcount=36

I was trying something slightly different than the common 2 bushing radius arm setup, I added the 3rd bushing to spread the bushing deflection to 6 total bushings instead of the more common 4 total bushing setup. Another good way to do it is the way that Nth degree does there radius arms with the stud style bushing setup. There is Castor change, but that is one of the trade offs of the setup.

One poster questioned the tabs on the connection point, in the final product there is a gusset between the 2 tabs. We have put a few hundred miles on this setup as a rock crawler/prerunner/street machine and so far it works pretty good in all setups. We have coil overs and air bumps at all 4 corners. It flexes a lot in my opinion. No doubt that a front 3 or 4 link has more overall flex without resistance, but the Panhard bar setup gives more potential for less bump steer, and the radius arms package well and you dont have to run a sway bar.

With no sway bars it handles good on the street, that is the "bind" induced by the radius arm design helping out with a sway bar effect. I noticed that some comp rigs that Shannon Cambell built a few years back use Radius arms in front. I think he liked to limit front travel a bit sometimes on his comp rigs.

Here is my old thread on it, finally getting around to it as we speak. Instead of building custom radius arms decided to simply just use FZJ80 arms...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=678729&highlight=

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Your pictures alone do all the telling Andre. Zero overload leafs. Your trying to get all your load capacity and spring rate with active leafs. My current and old setup use OME overload leafs at the bottom of the pack, its only main drawback is slightly limited up travel, but still my tires will stuff right into my wheel wells. With an spring designed with an overload leaf, you get multiple spring rates out of a traditionally single spring rate leaf pack. Something like 250 lbs/in and 400 lbs/in in the same pack.

Your not going to be able to build a simple suspension that does everything, but then again I have never had a customer tell me they need to haul 10k with their Land Cruiser, and if they did, suspension would be the least of my worries. You build a suspension to handle best on the terrains you are likely to encounter. Mine works great on washboard and I stand by the fact it can be replicated for any other Land Cruiser with the right components and setup. Will there be sacrifice, sure. But I would rather have a spring that flexes, rides great on washboard and carries my loads primarily, and if I need to haul some giant 10k load I would add air-bags. No sense designing your suspension to function for the .1% of your uses while compromising the ride during 10% of your uses.

Radius arms are great, why we are bringing them into this conversation about leaf sprung SOA's I have no clue. 3,4 and 5 links are great too. But they all suffer from the same issues a leaf spring will. With a single coil setup as your radius setup will run, you can have the exact same load capacity versus spring rate & ride issue as there are very few dual rate traditional wrap coils. You can use a coil that nets a nice ride yet sags, or a coil that doesn't sag under added load and rides firmer. Pick your poison.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

I took this approach really mimicing the original LC suspension. I do recognize overloads but again especially if they aren't being used they add height and they would have to be very close to the pack to keep my sag requirements in check and would limit uptravel... I think you also misinterpreted too, the wagon is bigger and heavier and yes sometimes I would load the crap out of it. This was when I had undesirable sag. Also it is not possible to see but that is the natural stretch of the add-a-leaves, not much more compressed. So though they were arched and they are "active" I noticed no loss in performance when having a similar setup but less weight carrying ability and did in a sense act as overloads. I mentioned the huge load mostly as it suprised me as how well it came out... I had to tow a vehicle, this was the one vehicle I had to do it with, and the only trailer I had access to was for construction equipment. It was a 45 minute drive so what the hell.. And sure enough it did great. The loads I was referring to were standard camping or even just 4-5 people and gear. 1000-2500lbs. I found even with these reasonable loads I had undesireable sag. I got nothing but compliments about how well the truck rode actually, for example Steen in Kyrgistan said it renewed his faith in 55s SOA. Also my only complaint whatsoever was washboards. The only suspension I found that really performed well all around on stuff like this is actually OME, period, for example 60 series OME on ********'s FJ62. So just my $.02... It is not that often that I towed but that was the big benefit of the 55 when I was modifying it, that I didn't take the 'cruiser' out of the cruiser, in a sense not ruining the best part if it, or better yet, enhancing it.

I hope it helps and again as usual I am just thinking aloud here... I hope the coils meet me expectations and that was my plan with the new 55 as well, start with coils, see how it goes, and if not use the firestone in-spring air bags for those occasional moments...

The point of discussing radius arms was if anyone here took my advice about coils pointing out some of the benis of radius arms versus other coil setups, less bump steer (and ease of install and reduced cost versus a linked setup). Basically making the setup easy and relatively cheaper and less complex than your standard coil or link conversion and something that I think most people who could do a decent SOA on a front axle or a shackle reversal, could also probably do, and get better results...

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Tacolillie & others have seen these pics but some photos of the suspension as it was set up and in flex. Literally killer, no complaints at all. Just not soft and good for washboards and hauling ***. This is why I chose to switch to coils on the new one mostly after experiences like riding with DMC in a 80 series... And again, radius arms in action... Doable with links but using the panhard is nice. My thoughts are a sweet setup would be coils up front, leafs rear, and easiest solution rather than swapping frames. No regrets but I took this route largely because I was scared of fabbing up coils and was unaware of what I believe will be good results with radius arm, and also because similar to Tacollie I have also seen too many bad linked setups.

Last pic shows my first setup which you probably remember. Handled just unreal on rutty roads and washboards, But too much sway, sag, etc. Again, you might be right but I was never able to find an inbetween no matter how much I tried. The one and only short coming I may have had were too-firm shocks, but other than that I strongly believe I exhausted my options.

Just trying to help here. All of this is good universal info for anyone interested in the subject, IMO.

 

[tacollie]

Those pictures of Andres 55 are what made me consider going SOA after I had ruled it out. The flex is unreal. I can deal with a little sway just not wobbly road manors. I think I am going to aim for a medium/stiff pack and go from there. There are always sacrifices no matter the set up. If I don't like the leafs I can always add coils later on. Alcan had some interesting things to say and really were a big help. I will probably end up with a progressive pack because that is what has worked best for me in the past on Tacomas. My Alcans on my taco where better in every situation than my OMEs though it is hard to say until it is actually out the door.
As far as handling I don't expect to handle like my taco or even a 100 series. I don't like big vehicles that drive like a car. Plus I think I drive better in crappier handling vehicles, I guess you have to though. I think the 55 with good springs and shocks will be key along with the hysteer and trac bar to achieve this. The steering sucks on my 55 right now. Thanks again for your input everyone, it has been a huge help.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

You should never use added spring rate to counter sway imo, use a sway bar. I'm as guilty of this as the next, I run my springs a bit heavier to counter body roll and sway, but the caveat is it really helps with my load capacity and on any given trip I am carrying 400-500 lbs of gear sans trailer. Its very possible a sway bar would have corrected the issues you had, combined with a modest overload spring on the bottom of the pack (3/8" of lift is all). I know you had that truck for a few years, but it really didn't see a whole lot of trail time in the grands scheme of things, I think you would have found springs with a non-active overload would have really helped boost your load capacity (2500lbs is beyond what I would call "reasonable" btw, thats more than I carry in the 40 and total weight of the trailer combined FWIW). Old Man Emu uses overload leafs in the majority of their heavy leaf suspensions, all Tacomas, 40, 45, 60's, 70's, mini's for example. At the end of the day, sure it will limit the perceived flex, but all will stuff a tire as best as needed on a streetable rig imo. Overloads should really only be considered in the rear, but that is where all your load should be concentrated in the first place.

Oh FWIW, Richards OME equipped FJ62 does ride great, overloads and all... but his SOA FJ62 rides even better on the washboard and flexes great too! However it does sag considerable with load, one our big trip down south a couple weekends ago we discussed the merits of an overload leaf for that rig in particular. Zero impact on the ride, 3/8" - 1/2" of additional lift and far more load capacity when needed. FWIW Big Bear (Sully and I's FJ55) did great on washboard and flex, where it suffered was load capacity and sag. Had we intended to use it for long range hauling much, some different springs would have been warranted for the rear, given it only saw local trails under our ownership with the exception of that big Moab haul, it was a non issue.

Agreed, this is all great information and I hope my ranting is also found useful.

 

[RHINO]

you go kurt,, i am in that middle road between ride and load carry. right now it rides great, but sags when loaded. thats part of the reason i built the trailer so many years ago, i dont have to load the pig and the trailer makes a fine base camp. but of course, not all my trips require the trailer. i have been finding it quite enjoyable to get back to basics and travel pretty light when solo, meaning a lack of much extra weight to carry.

on the subject of coils, i am back and forth about doing mine,,, but i would think, the very nature of coils lack of friction that leaves have would be able to run a stiffer coil to carry weight, yet still be a bit softer on washbord. maybe not as soft as one would like, but i am sure a coil that can carry the load of a similar leaf would still be softer (or smoother).

 

[tacollie]

I agree a good coil set up should be better than leafs but I would rather start out here and go from there. On my taco I had over built alcans and they rod the same as the emus when the truck was empty and carried the weight just as well since they were overbuilt. I am serioiusly considering redueing the rear springs to fit 60 springs. I cannot seem to get a consistant answer of what that is going to do as far as height though. It would be nice to be able to run old man emu springs.

I am planning on running a sway bar even though I don't want to. I will probably wait until it is all togather though before I do that.

 

[Grease Cruiser]

I agree a good coil set up should be better than leafs but I would rather start out here and go from there. On my taco I had over built alcans and they rod the same as the emus when the truck was empty and carried the weight just as well since they were overbuilt. I am serioiusly considering redueing the rear springs to fit 60 springs. I cannot seem to get a consistant answer of what that is going to do as far as height though. It would be nice to be able to run old man emu springs.

I am planning on running a sway bar even though I don't want to. I will probably wait until it is all togather though before I do that.

FWIW, I'm running an Old Man Emu lift on my 55. HZJ75 springs work really well. Going on several thousand miles after I installed them. I got about 2.5" lift and they ride well.
For the rear, you have to move the shackle hanger back about 5.5".
I did not move anything in the front as they bolted in. But, since the springs are sagging a little, I may move the fixed spring end back about 2 inches to help with shackle angle.
Hope that helps.

 

[Grease Cruiser]

Almost forgot:
We, Proffitt's Cruisers, will be doing a front 3 link on a FJ55 this winter using some factory Toyota parts. We have several 79 series trucks and will be robbing the suspension and axles from one of the trucks to put under the 55. Or.... we might take the 55 body and put it onto the 79 chassis. It's a toss up.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

FWIW, I'm running an Old Man Emu lift on my 55. HZJ75 springs work really well. Going on several thousand miles after I installed them. I got about 2.5" lift and they ride well.
For the rear, you have to move the shackle hanger back about 5.5".
I did not move anything in the front as they bolted in. But, since the springs are sagging a little, I may move the fixed spring end back about 2 inches to help with shackle angle.
Hope that helps.

Would love to see some pics

Almost forgot:
We, Proffitt's Cruisers, will be doing a front 3 link on a FJ55 this winter using some factory Toyota parts. We have several 79 series trucks and will be robbing the suspension and axles from one of the trucks to put under the 55. Or.... we might take the 55 body and put it onto the 79 chassis. It's a toss up.

That will be cool, I'm looking forward to that

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

The 75 series springs sure do look close and useable on a 55 huh?

(not my pig)...