Thanks for the data. We having been using a jetboil for morning coffee/tea and oatmeal and I’d like to move to something bigger so we don’t have to boil water so many times. Do you mind sharing which induction burner you use?
Supertramp Flagship LT pop-up slide-in pickup camper
- Thread starter Chadx
- Start date
We don’t have AC and generally don’t need it for us. I do wish we had it when we needed to leave the doggos in the camper for when we bike or have to go somewhere where we can’t bring them. Double fan does the trick, but it limits us on what we can do if temp is above 80 outside.
We are using one of the Duxtop brand cooktops. Specific model is BT-200DZ (black trimmed version rather than silver trimmed version). Bought it a few years ago, but just now starting to experiment with it more.
https://www.thesecura.com/product/d...ensor-touch-1800-watts-black-9610ls-bt-200dz/
If we end up ever doing a built in, I'd lean more towards one of the versions that sit down into the countertop flush. Those can still be used as a portable (lifted out and unplugged), but at least they "live" in the countertop rather than stored away, so no need to pull them out each time one sets up camp.
Such as this: https://www.thesecura.com/product/d...nute-timer-safety-lock-1800w-bt-200t1-8600bi/
Their full line is here: https://www.thesecura.com/product_categories/induction-cooktops/
but there are many brands out there. Duxtop just seemed to have decent reviews and been at it a while.
One interesting item to note with most induction burners, including ours, the lowest settings are not steady watt draw. Power Mode settings below 800 Watts will use power cycling. Power Mode settings of 800 watts and above use continuous control. On ours, level 5 is the lowest setting that has constant draw. That is 880 watts draw. Settings 5 and up draw steady and incrementally more watts the higher you go, all the way up to 1,800watts on setting 10. Settings 1 - 4 pulse on and off (800 watts) to maintain their temp, similar to how a standard microwave pulses on and off.
High on our model is 1800watts draw, hence we went with a 2,000watt inverter. I believe there are portable induction cooktops that draw 1,400watts and those should be compatible with the standard 1,500watt inverter.
As for water boiling, rather than hauling out the induction cooktop and compatible tea kettle, we much prefer using an electric teapot. Keep an eye on max wattage of those as well as they vary from 1000watts - 1800watts. We liked the design and features of the "POLIVIAR Electric Gooseneck Kettle, 1200W" (specific model linked below), but there are sooooo many different sizes, designs and features available out there.
This one is 1200watts and will boil 34oz (1 liter) in about 5.5 minutes in our experience. Here: Poliviar Electric Gooseneck Kettle, 1200W
Edit: Adding in the current draw table from the Duxtop manual. (Since there are 1/2 setting, technically there are 20 settings and not 10).
One thing I corrected them on, though I doubt they ever changed, is they incorrectly label the values they provide as Watts when they are Watt Hours. As mentioned, settings less than '5' cycle, so that is not Watts; that is Watt-hours. It might pull 340 watt hours on setting two, but it draws 880 watts, then none, then 880watts, then none.
To me, their specs are misleading because someone with a 500 watt inverter would interpret their specs to mean they could use this unit as long as they only went up to setting 2.5. That is not the case since case since these are really watt hours and the unit cycles, drawing up to 880 watts. So 900 watt inverter is the minimum inverter size.
In the below, I changed label to Watt Hours.
Setting - Watt Hours -
0.5 - 100 - Simmer-keep warm
1.0 - 180 - Simmer-keep warm
1.5 - 260 - Simmer-keep warm
2.0 - 340 - Simmer-keep warm
2.5 - 420 - Low
3.0 - 500 - Low
3.5 -580 - Low
4.0 - 660 - Low
4.5 - 740 - Medium-low
5.0 - 820 - Medium-low
5.5 - 900 - Medium-low
6.0 - 1000 - Medium-low
6.5 - 1100 - Medium-high
7.0 - 1200 - Medium-high
7.5 - 1300 - Medium-high
8.0 - 1400 - Medium-high
8.5 - 1500 - High
9.0 - 1600 - High
9.5 - 1700 - High
10 - 1800 - High
Curious if anyone own a portable induction cooktop that does not cycle at lower settings and pulls steady watt at lower settings? Assuming they all cycle at lower settings, but perhaps not.
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SimplyAnAdventure
Well-known member
So I was just at the OK4WD Rendezvous as well as ExpoEast. Got talking to Rin at OK and picked his brain about the ridiculous lack of charging in the ST…. He asked me what it had and when I gave him the specs he literally laughed out loud…. I agreed.
Anyway, spoke in depth with him as well as a few vendors. Looks like come spring I’m going to tear out the stock ST electrical system and put in a RedArc Manager 100, a 3000W inverter and an external 50A Anderson plug as well as another 220W of solar on the roof.
This will give me 550W of solar on the roof plus 600W or more external panels, 100A of charging while driving which is more than 3X faster. The huge inverter really is a just because upgrade, but that way if you guys talk me into an electric stove I’ll be able to power anything. lol.
The camper was great as always, we had a great time with old friends and met many new ones.
I might bring the truck down to OK this fall to start the planning or just wait until Spring. Not sure.
Anyway, spoke in depth with him as well as a few vendors. Looks like come spring I’m going to tear out the stock ST electrical system and put in a RedArc Manager 100, a 3000W inverter and an external 50A Anderson plug as well as another 220W of solar on the roof.
This will give me 550W of solar on the roof plus 600W or more external panels, 100A of charging while driving which is more than 3X faster. The huge inverter really is a just because upgrade, but that way if you guys talk me into an electric stove I’ll be able to power anything. lol.
The camper was great as always, we had a great time with old friends and met many new ones.
I might bring the truck down to OK this fall to start the planning or just wait until Spring. Not sure.
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DC and Solar chargers and Solar arrays
The RedArc Managers are neat units. I had the RedArc Manager 30 in previous camper and it always worked great even though they don't have the best reputation. I think a lot of those issues have been worked out, but some camper brands have changed from RedArc to Victron due to the past RedArc issues and also simply due to Victron parts and service being more available. For my needs in that camper, it worked fine that the RedArc manager 30 was an all-in-one unit (solar controller, DC charger, etc.), even though I would have preferred two sources of battery charging rather than one. It had a capacity of 30 amps and prioritized solar over DC charging. Meaning, if solar was producing 10 amps, it use that and then make up the other 20amps from DC charging to get the full 30amps throughput. And, you could set the charger to only flow a certain number of amps (I think it was anywhere between 4amps and 30 amps). Handy if you have pickup that does not have a large or multiple alternators and wanted to limit charge rate or change it as circumstances dictate.
One downside of an all-in-one is that if there are issues with it, you have no charging input at all. A separate DC charger and solar controller give you redundant battery charging capacity. They are from different sources, that may not be available all the time (sun down or not driving) but at least you have something. Plus, they both contribute up to their max throughput rather than combining together into one unit which can hit the max throughput limit. Max throughput is not, of course, as much of an issue with the Manager 100 as compared to the Manager 30. But, if one ups the roof solar array to 550 - 600 watts, that is about 40 amps of the 100amps max capacity of the Manager 100. Note: I didn't include watts of a portable array since you won't use them as you drive and so no alternator input. So, I'd recommend using a separate 40 amp solar controller for the 550watts of rooftop panels. Then, run all portable panels through the Manager 100. That way, as you drive, your separate solar controller for rooftop can do it's 40amps of charging and the RedArc can do a full 100amps of charging from DC for a total of about 140 amps vs only 100amp if rooftop solar also ran through the RedArc. Also, when stationary, your rooftop 550watt solar and separate solar controller will contribute it's 40amps and the 600watts of portable panels, attached to the RedArc, will contribute their 40amps. But you can expand the portable array up to full 100amps without concern for the rooftop array input (100amps is about 1,600watts of portable solar, so maybe that is not realistic). But at least you'd have redundancy on the solar chargers as well. Important: Leave enough slack in solar input wires (both rooftop and portable wires) so you can change both pairs of solar input cables from one solar controller to the other if need be.
My problem with the RedArcs, particularly as their amp capability gets larger, is that, because they are all-in-one, they require all input to have a nominal voltage of 12V. Since they have to combine input from alternator 12V and the solar array, the input from the array must be the same nonimal voltage; 12v. That makes more sense in the smaller 30amp unit because solar array sizes are usually only one or two panels and two panels in parallel isn't much extra wiring/connectors and well within capacity of typical 10awg solar wiring. Wiring solar in parallel vs series has a lot more drawbacks as the number of panels, in the array, increase.
The RedArc Manager Alpha100 has a nominal voltage of 12V and input voltage range of 9 - 32VDC. In practice, that means that all 12v solar panels (which are typically 16v - 20v), feeding into your RedArc, have to be wired in parallel. The stock ST panels are in series. Wiring in series increases the voltage rather than increasing the current. Also, conductors have amp limits which is independent of voltage. Typical solar wires are 10awg and have a 40amp capacity (be that 12v or 100v). So 12v x 40amps is 480 watt limit. But since most 12v nominal solar panels run at around 16v, that is 16v x 40amps = 640 watt limit. If you combined five 16v panels in series, that pushes voltage to 80v and so 80v x 40amp = 3,200watt capacity on the 10awg cable. But the main con of having to wire your solar arrays in parallel is it complicates solar wiring (many extra connectors and more wiring) and also has more voltage drop (wasted input) when trying to run near max amperage through 10awg solar wires; as mentioned above, 16v panels in parallel would limit array size to about 640watts. By the way, none of my calculations above consider temperature and solar panels can produce well above their rated watts in cold temperatures. Some of that is mitigated by sun angles typically being much lower when temps are cold, but had to mention it.
Having a separate solar controller, for your rooftop solar panel array, would allow you to wire the rooftop array in series making the wiring much cleaner and less complex.
Then, if the portable panels are running through your RedArc, they will need to be wired in parallel rather than series. Not an issue with up to about 600watts, but as your portable array size grows, the standard solar cables will only flow so much from 12v -nominal (16v) panels in parallel vs wired in series. And, wiring in parallel uses a lot more connectors and wiring and is a bit more hectic layout for portable. And, portable panels typically have long extension cables of 20 to 35 feet to get them away from a shaded camper and into the sun. A typical 10gauge extension cable has a limit of about 40amps. The output from a 12v panel is typically 16v to 20v. Using the low end (16v) like I did for rooftop solar calculation above, that would mean your parallel solar array size limit would be about 16v x 40amps = 640 watts if wired in parallel. Maybe a bit more since the 20 to 35 foot cable runs will have more voltage drop and you can compensate for that with larger array. Array in series, and much higher voltage, will be less effected by voltage drop on those longer cable runs.
Part 2 of reply...
Base/Standard wiring and chargers
I'm hoping ST runs out of their supply of 8gauge soon and then buys appropriate conductor size for this run length and throughput. I have not measured the actual run length, but positive and negative conductor loop likely totals around 50 feet when considering the entire run loop length: from the pickup battery all the way to the rear of the pickup to the connector, then forward again into the camper to the DC charger in the electronics cabinet. 3% allowable voltage drop is the standard. All wire gauge calculators/tables indicate 2 gauge conductor is appropriate for a 50 foot loop, 30 amp load and a limit of 3% allowable voltage drop. Same parameters but for 50amp load specs 0 gauge conductors. That will vary with length of the conductor loop, of course, but 50feet seems a good approximation.
In one quick test that I did with a multimeter indicated the stock 8 gauge cable saw over 6% voltage drop from the pickup side to the DC charger input. Similar results are shown when I punched the following parameters into a "voltage drop calculator": voltage 13.8v, length of loop: 50feet, load: 30amps, gauge: 8. It calculated that voltage drop would be 6.8%. That 6 gauge would be 4.2%. That 4 gauge would be 2.7%. And 2gauge would be 1.7%. I need to do more tests, at various camper battery bank SOC since that has an impact on current throughput. Everything else, in the ST campers, is so well thought out, so I can't wrap my head around why an 8awg conductor was, and still is, used for such a long cable run for a 30amp load.
There is justifiably and extra cost for the optional larger conductor size (cable and connector cost, harder to work with/install, etc.) but I strongly suggest every buyer requests an upgrade to at least the conductor size, even if not the DC charger, even if you don't have the immediate need. The reason being, it is harder to retrofit the camper itself with larger gauge wire later compared to the run on the pickup side.
In my opinion, ST should pivot and spec all campers with the new, small, very efficient Victron 50amp DC charger and 0gauge or 2gauge conductors in the pickup and camper. Bump up the base price as needed, as it's not really that much in the big picture, and be done with it. That would eliminate the risk of buyer complaints particularly from those that are not familiar enough with electrical/charging subject matter and so then are surprised by the charge rates. Same for the Solar Controller; In my opinion, ST should never install another 15 amp controller again (limits solar throughput to 220watts); should only install 20 amp (290watt throughput) or larger. And, state in the camper specs on the website beside the "330wat solar" spec, that the max throughput is limited to 220watt or 290watt max (depending on if they stick with the 15amp controller or move to only use the 20amp controller). Buyers read the "330watt of solar" spec and misunderstand that they will get up to 330watts of solar throughput. Throughput is limited by the solar controller size and so 220watt (for 15amp) or 290watt (for 20 amp) solar controllers.
Regarding my recommendation for ST to move to the 50amp DC charger as standard along with the 20amp Solar Controller as standard, there is a caveat as it relates to recommended max charge rate with the Battleborn batteries. Specifically when base model is outfitted with only a single 100ah battery. Battleborn recommends a max charge rate of 0.5C which is 50 amps for a 100amp battery. The recommended Victron 50 DC charger would output that on it's own and then the solar controller could contribute another 20 amps. 70 amps would be over the recommended 0.5C charge rate if only using one 100ah battery. But, rather than having a different/smaller DC charger and conductor specs between campers with only 100ah of battery vs more ah, I'd recommend taking the step to make 200ah the minimum/standard battery bank capacity. This is a premium camper (and, it seems to draw more amps than my previous campers), so bake in the price of 200ah of battery, Victron 50amp DC charger, Victron 20amp solar controller and appropriately sized conductors (likely 0awg or 2awg).
Base/Standard wiring and chargers
I'm hoping ST runs out of their supply of 8gauge soon and then buys appropriate conductor size for this run length and throughput. I have not measured the actual run length, but positive and negative conductor loop likely totals around 50 feet when considering the entire run loop length: from the pickup battery all the way to the rear of the pickup to the connector, then forward again into the camper to the DC charger in the electronics cabinet. 3% allowable voltage drop is the standard. All wire gauge calculators/tables indicate 2 gauge conductor is appropriate for a 50 foot loop, 30 amp load and a limit of 3% allowable voltage drop. Same parameters but for 50amp load specs 0 gauge conductors. That will vary with length of the conductor loop, of course, but 50feet seems a good approximation.
In one quick test that I did with a multimeter indicated the stock 8 gauge cable saw over 6% voltage drop from the pickup side to the DC charger input. Similar results are shown when I punched the following parameters into a "voltage drop calculator": voltage 13.8v, length of loop: 50feet, load: 30amps, gauge: 8. It calculated that voltage drop would be 6.8%. That 6 gauge would be 4.2%. That 4 gauge would be 2.7%. And 2gauge would be 1.7%. I need to do more tests, at various camper battery bank SOC since that has an impact on current throughput. Everything else, in the ST campers, is so well thought out, so I can't wrap my head around why an 8awg conductor was, and still is, used for such a long cable run for a 30amp load.
There is justifiably and extra cost for the optional larger conductor size (cable and connector cost, harder to work with/install, etc.) but I strongly suggest every buyer requests an upgrade to at least the conductor size, even if not the DC charger, even if you don't have the immediate need. The reason being, it is harder to retrofit the camper itself with larger gauge wire later compared to the run on the pickup side.
In my opinion, ST should pivot and spec all campers with the new, small, very efficient Victron 50amp DC charger and 0gauge or 2gauge conductors in the pickup and camper. Bump up the base price as needed, as it's not really that much in the big picture, and be done with it. That would eliminate the risk of buyer complaints particularly from those that are not familiar enough with electrical/charging subject matter and so then are surprised by the charge rates. Same for the Solar Controller; In my opinion, ST should never install another 15 amp controller again (limits solar throughput to 220watts); should only install 20 amp (290watt throughput) or larger. And, state in the camper specs on the website beside the "330wat solar" spec, that the max throughput is limited to 220watt or 290watt max (depending on if they stick with the 15amp controller or move to only use the 20amp controller). Buyers read the "330watt of solar" spec and misunderstand that they will get up to 330watts of solar throughput. Throughput is limited by the solar controller size and so 220watt (for 15amp) or 290watt (for 20 amp) solar controllers.
Regarding my recommendation for ST to move to the 50amp DC charger as standard along with the 20amp Solar Controller as standard, there is a caveat as it relates to recommended max charge rate with the Battleborn batteries. Specifically when base model is outfitted with only a single 100ah battery. Battleborn recommends a max charge rate of 0.5C which is 50 amps for a 100amp battery. The recommended Victron 50 DC charger would output that on it's own and then the solar controller could contribute another 20 amps. 70 amps would be over the recommended 0.5C charge rate if only using one 100ah battery. But, rather than having a different/smaller DC charger and conductor specs between campers with only 100ah of battery vs more ah, I'd recommend taking the step to make 200ah the minimum/standard battery bank capacity. This is a premium camper (and, it seems to draw more amps than my previous campers), so bake in the price of 200ah of battery, Victron 50amp DC charger, Victron 20amp solar controller and appropriately sized conductors (likely 0awg or 2awg).
Or, many of these companies are moving to 48v systems which can use conductors 1/4 the size of 12v systems. StoryTeller is a good example, but several others are going that direction also.
Absolutely. My post was long enough already (Expedition Portal text size limit made me split into two posts the way it was. Ha) so I didn't even touch on the advantages of going 48v. I suspect we'll see more and more 48v systems in the coming years. Automobiles are already making the switch (in EV anyway). Once you get into larger battery bank systems, like vans tend to have, 48v makes even more sense; 48v battery bank, dedicated 48v alternator, 48v all in one DC charger/Solar controller/shore power charger, 48v to 120v inverters, etc.). For a time period, there will be the need for 48v to 12v step down converters since so many accessories are 12v nominal, but I suspect more and more accessories will be available in 48v nominal in the future.