Suspension Comparison

[Backwoods Rambler]

So for a future vehicle, I'm considering both a 2008+ Grand Cherokee (V8) or a 2005+ 4Runner (V8).

My question is not simply which is better, but which has a suspension design that is better suited to a small lift; about 2.5" or 3.5" at the most and still offer good/great on-road characteristics?

I'm definitely more of a Jeep guy and really like the QDII 4wd system, but I tend to think that the 4Runner is the correct answer to this particular question; although I don't know why. But, I wonder if the GC just hasn't been tinkered with as much for some reason. I also tend to lean towards the 4Runner for the body-on-frame design even though for my intended usage (light/med offroad + camping off the beaten path), the Uni-Body setup would be more than adequate.

Are there some other reasons to choose one over the other that I'm not considering?

 

[Photog]

The 4th Gen 4Runner will be an easy and dependable lift. OME springs & shocks all 4 corners. This will give a 3" front and 2" rear lift. For more money, the Overland Warehouse Coilover suspension and matching rear spring/shocks, will provide a smoother ride and still provide load carrying ability.

There have been very few reliability issues with the 4th Gen 4Runners, many having well over 100,000 miles on them (mine has 135k).

The ride is excellent, and quiet. Build quality is high. Not much spare room in cockpit for radio equipment (must be very selective). The ATRAC II traction system works very well. It also does not interfear with a locker, if one is added later. It has a selectable Center Diff Lock (CDL).

There is enough aftermarket equipment to armor the rig and a number of good roof baskets & accessories.

I don't know how CG compares between the Toyota 4R and the Jeep GC. I also don't know anything about the reliability of the GC.

Hope that helps.

 

[teotwaki]

What he said except mine is 108k miles in 63 months. Zero problems. Current mods are in my sig.

 

[SWbySWesty]

is the 4Runner IFS? I think the GC still has a solid axle, right?

 

[teotwaki]

is the 4Runner IFS? I think the GC still has a solid axle, right?

Yes to both

 

[nwoods]

I don't have either vehicle, but my friend has a newer generation 4runner (but not the brand new one). He went with an Icon shock & coilover set up, with Total Chaos front control arms. The results were amazing! He got about 3.5" of lift, no vibrations, and the functionality of the suspension has me green with envy. Very drivable on the street, it's amazingly flexy in slow motion rock crawling, with great articulation, and it handles dunes and whoops like a SCORE Baja rig. It was not inexpensive, but its the best performing suspension I have ever seen.
Edit: There is a write up about his set-up in the recent Toyota Owner's magazine.

 

[Backwoods Rambler]

is the 4Runner IFS? I think the GC still has a solid axle, right?

Yes to both

Correction...The GC got IFS starting in '05.

This is the reason for the question. I don't know much, if anything, about lifting an IFS rig. Drop bracketry, steering angles, CV angles, road manners....all a mystery to me with IFS.

On the one hand, I don't like the idea of drop bracketry. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of extreme CV angles making things wear out sooner.

If the GC still has a solid axle I would have never posted this question, but maybe I should have. Maybe lifted IFS rigs have better street manners than lifted SA rigs???

 

[nwoods]

I am NOT by any stretch of the imagination a knowledgeable expert on this issue, however, I dealt with it quite a bit with the Land Rover LR3, which is independent at all 4 wheels.

The key factor is maintaining a relatively shallow angle on the CV joints. The greater the angle as a result of a lift, the more shear force is applied to the CV joints, in a vector that is their weakest point. For this reason, you see diff drop kits on pick-ups and other IFS rigs, to reduce the angle on the CV's.

The Toyota IFS system is allowed to be lifted 3" and still stay under factory warranty (how cool is that!), and has a practical limit of 3.5" to 4" before bad things happen.

 

[teotwaki]

I never really needed a diff drop bracket. They might help if you are trying to gain more room in the wheel wells for larger tires? I have roughly 2.5 to 3" in the front (coilovers) and it has been that way for 4 years.The 4Runner is at 108K and no issues at all.

 

[Root Moose]

I'm not "up" on the two vehicles you are looking into.

If I were building an IFS rig there would be a few things I would confirm.

First, make sure the suspension is a true short/long arm front suspension (e.g. SLA, double A-arm, etc.). MacPherson struts have no place on a 4x4 truck (Bt/dt).

I'd look at what lifts are available that do not drop the front differential. I'm guessing that these lifts are in the 1.5" - 2.5" range. The longer the front half shafts the more lift without dropping the differential that is practical.

Then I'd look at aftermarket fender flares that make room for "big tahrs".

Between those two things you should be able to get a decent size tire on the rig.

I really dislike the "wall of steel" that most IFS lifts with differential drop brackets create between the front wheels. I'd do anything practical to avoid it.

$0.02

 

[Photog]

No drop-brackets necessary for 4Runner. The factory CV's are at a negative angle. A 3" lift puts the CV's into the same angle, just in the positive direction.

IFS does have better street manners.

The 4Runner has dual A-Arms (short & long). There are no McStruts on the 4Runners, just coilovers up front.

Bushwhacker is working on some flares, but they are not available yet. Big tires are not restricted by fender width. The restriction seems to be the mudflap areas, body mount, and the upper control arms (UCA). Wheel offset corrects the UCA issue, but makes the mudflap issue worse. The body mount can be trimmed, without any problems.

 

[Backwoods Rambler]

Great info everyone.

I was able to dig up a little bit of info on the WK (2005-2010) Grand Cherokee front suspension

It seems that it is also a SLA design.

I know they do make "spacer" lift kits for the GC that are labeled as "strut spacers" but the suspension uses a dual SLA + coilover design much like the 4Runner

The biggest difference that my non-engineering mind can think of between the GC and the 4Runner setup is the CV angles at stock height. If the GC angles are already pointing down, then a drop bracketry system would be necessary to manage lifts over 2".

 

[Root Moose]

Agree, you have to concede the point on the CV shaft angles. That said, just how low is the front differential in a Toyota in stock configuration?

It's starting to come back to me about the WK/XK suspension. The upright is kind of constructed like a strut that bolts or is TRE'ed to the A-Arms. If you look for posts by "getlost4x4" on this site you can find some information on how he lifted his XK (same suspension). I think he made his parts himself. I can't remember if he dropped the differential. There are some decent images in his threads I think. Also, he has a blog listed in his signature block that has all the info about it as well.

If it were me I'd by an XK just for the looks.

 

[Backwoods Rambler]

I know that this is a bit off of the IFS topic, but I digress....

One of the percieved "pros" of the toyota is the availability of true lockers & possibly more gearing choices (I think). I've been watching youtube vids of the Jeep QDII 4x4 system on Commanders & GC's and have to say I'm quite impressed! I already knew it was a good system based on a couple of reviews, technical articles and word of mouth, but the videos speak volumes.

That's not to say that I think the QDII system is better than true lockers. I think there are pros & cons to both. The big pro being that QDII is a system that works well in all conditions without even thinking about it. The big pro of true lockers being that you control when & where they lock; no questions asked (assuming there's not problems with electrical or air lines).

As far as gearing...... I think with the v8, both vehicles can handle the tire size I would consider without gearing changes. Maybe I'm wrong?? You tell me; I'd be looking at a 31"-32" size.

 

[Black Dog]

I'd look at what lifts are available that do not drop the front differential. I'm guessing that these lifts are in the 1.5" - 2.5" range. The longer the front half shafts the more lift without dropping the differential that is practical.

There are those portal gears like in unimogs and H1's which isn't really a lift but it would still give you clearance for bigger tires without having the wall of steel. But only people who are made of money can afford those, I think they are a couple thousand bucks per axle.