Suspension for an overweight Tacoma (2nd gen)?

[tacollie]

The Tremor is just an example of a 3/4 ton that everyone would deem suitable for that load. If the Tremor takes as long to stop as the Tacoma while both are carrying the same load, then the idea that Tacoma brakes are inadequate when you overload it, doesn't have merit.

I was quoting C&Ds braking tests of both these trucks... they differ from your perception that "there is no comparison in braking capability"... unless you meant the Tacoma is better.

I've owned a Tacoma, Tundra, and F250. The Tacoma and Tundra see a greater decline in performance with added weight. The Tundra and Tacoma are going to eat pads and rotors. They aren't designed to carry weight full-time and aren't going to be good at it. With aftermarket stuff you can make them work. I do agree with you that the OP would probably be best served with some Iron Man suspension. And maybe some upgraded braking components.

I have a buddy with a Tacoma/Finch and a buddy with a Tundra/flatbed Hawk. They both have made comments to me how every time their wives drive the trucks they have to replace pads and rotors 🤣

 

[rruff]

You're comparing a truck that weighs 1/2 as much as the other and claiming the brakes on the lighter truck are better. Put the same load in the tacoma and report back.

You mean make them both the same weight? What sense would that make?

The moral of the story is that if an overloaded Tacoma has inadequate braking, then the Tremor does as well.

 

[rruff]

They both have made comments to me how every time their wives drive the trucks they have to replace pads and rotors 🤣

That's why my brakes and rotors are in great shape...

I have had to stop hard a few times, always for large animals in the road. A herd of wild horses a couple nights ago. They are considered wild but like the elk and deer who have taken up residence in town, they are pretty tame and think they own the place...

 

[Jc1986.carter]

You mean make them both the same weight? What sense would that make?

The moral of the story is that if an overloaded Tacoma has inadequate braking, then the Tremor does as well.

I’m just going to leave this here.

You Probably Need a Bigger Pickup Truck than You Think You Do

An unpopular, but entirely rational argument for the huge pickups everyone loves to hate

www.outsideonline.com

 

[19mystic96]

I’m just going to leave this here.

You Probably Need a Bigger Pickup Truck than You Think You Do

An unpopular, but entirely rational argument for the huge pickups everyone loves to hate

www.outsideonline.com

That's a real unpopular article for some people on here..... you know, for the people who think it's ok to overload a vehicle and drive it down the road potentially right next to you and your family.

 

[MR E30]

Oh man, the fear-mongering in here is simply something to behold!

Do you share the same disdain for those who exceed the speed limit? You must certainly never exceed the speed limit yourself, as MY family may be on the road right next to you. We are certainly familiar with Newtons second law of motion, F=m*a, in which mass and speed/acceleration/velocity are equally weighted, as they are both unmodified variables to the first power. Except that acquiring more a is much, much easier than acquiring more m, and ultimately, a is far more deadly. And this is independent of the vehicle, as the roadway, and its design, is what dictates the speed limit for all vehicles.

We do realize that there are vehicles on the road that are heavier than a Tacoma that is overloaded with camping gear, right? And we realize that that same vehicle interacts with the ground through its tires, just like the Tacoma does. And we realize that this tire/pavement interaction is THE thing that determines how any vehicle responds to driver inputs? "But, but, but, it's designed to" you say, clearly missing the overall point and the weakest link in the chain of what actually keeps your family safe.

We do realize that people, regular people, do not need a special license or training to drive a moving truck, rented from U-Haul or Penske, and then filled to the brim with all things, before driving it across the country?

We also realize the same holds true for Class A motorhomes, which also have the capabilities to tow a heavy trailer? No special license or training there. You have got to just HATE these folks, cause man those RV's can be incredibly heavy, all the while having just 6 tiny little points of contact with the ground. Phew. Nightmarish stuff here.

How about people who are driving on bald/nearly bald tires? We certainly realize that this is incredibly dangerous to those around you. What about improper tire pressure, not following the guidance posted on the inside of your door jam? Under/overinflated tires, or heaven forbid, aftermarket, larger tires that aren't at the right pressure for their load rating and weight, all of these things are clearly dangerous, as they are changes made to the vehicle that are outside of what the vehicle was designed to deal with.

What about someone who hasn't had their brakes serviced? Or performed the outlined preventative maintenance by the manufacturer? Or a severally rusty vehicle? Certainly these too are dangerous to be around as well.

I have heard numerous, repetitive statistics about the impacts that drunk, or tired/distracted drivers reap on those around them. I have never once heard a single statistic about 'overloaded vehicles' being an imminent threat to others. This is a massive sub topic on its own, but suffice to say, THIS is the type of driver/vehicle that you need to be vigilant towards.

With all of this fear, I cannot believe that some of you ever even leave your driveway. At least a large motorhome, or moving truck, or an overloaded Tacoma are easy to spot, and easy to keep your distance from, if sheer terror is the feeling that grips you when gazing upon them. But that distracted driver? Or the drunk one? Or the sleepy one? Or the angry, inattentive one? You don't realize that they are a problem, many times, until it is too late.

 

[bkg]

Oh man, the fear-mongering in here is simply something to behold!

Do you share the same disdain for those who exceed the speed limit? You must certainly never exceed the speed limit yourself mystic, especially in a Raptor on 37's, as MY family may be on the road right next to you. We are certainly familiar with Newtons second law of motion, F=m*a, in which mass and speed/acceleration/velocity are equally weighted, as they are both unmodified variables to the first power. Except that acquiring more a is much, much easier than acquiring more m, and ultimately, a is far more deadly. And this is independent of the vehicle, as the roadway, and its design, is what dictates the speed limit for all vehicles.

We do realize that there are vehicles on the road that are heavier than a Tacoma that is overloaded with camping gear, right? And we realize that that same vehicle interacts with the ground through its tires, just like the Tacoma does. And we realize that this tire/pavement interaction is THE thing that determines how any vehicle responds to driver inputs? "But, but, but, it's designed to" you say, clearly missing the overall point and the weakest link in the chain of what actually keeps your family safe.

We do realize that people, regular people, do not need a special license or training to drive a moving truck, rented from U-Haul or Penske, and then filled to the brim with all things, before driving it across the country?

We also realize the same holds true for Class A motorhomes, which also have the capabilities to tow a heavy trailer? No special license or training there. You have got to just HATE these folks, cause man those RV's can be incredibly heavy, all the while having just 6 tiny little points of contact with the ground. Phew. Nightmarish stuff here.

How about people who are driving on bald/nearly bald tires? We certainly realize that this is incredibly dangerous to those around you. What about improper tire pressure, not following the guidance posted on the inside of your door jam? Under/overinflated tires, or heaven forbid, aftermarket, larger tires (37's cough) that aren't at the right pressure for their load rating and weight, all of these things are clearly dangerous, as they are changes made to the vehicle that are outside of what the vehicle was designed to deal with.

What about someone who hasn't had their brakes serviced? Or performed the outlined preventative maintenance by the manufacturer? Or a severally rusty vehicle? Certainly these too are dangerous to be around as well.

I have heard numerous, repetitive statistics about the impacts that drunk, or tired/distracted drivers reap on those around them. I have never once heard a single statistic about 'overloaded vehicles' being an imminent threat to others. This is a massive sub topic on its own, but suffice to say, THIS is the type of driver/vehicle that you need to be vigilant towards.

With all of this fear, I cannot believe that some of you ever even leave your driveway. At least a large motorhome, or moving truck, or an overloaded Tacoma are easy to spot, and easy to keep your distance from, if sheer terror is the feeling that grips you when gazing upon them. But that distracted driver? Or the drunk one? Or the sleepy one? Or the angry, inattentive one? You don't realize that they are a problem, many times, until it is too late.

you seem to love reading into anything and everything to justify overloading a truck... emotion <> fact.

 

[bkg]

You mean make them both the same weight? What sense would that make?

The moral of the story is that if an overloaded Tacoma has inadequate braking, then the Tremor does as well.

sigh...
you can't state the brakes are "great" on a Tacoma and "bad" on a Tremor (emphasis mine) while ignoring almost 4000 lbs weight difference. Put that 4k in a Tacoma and compare the brakes between the Tacoma and the Tremor and report back using the same method as the C&D article your entire argument is wed to.

Otherwise, you're comparing apples and oranges and holding to an emotional position instead of a logical, factual comparison.

No idea why people, especially on this site, demand that Toyota is immune to physics.

 

[tacollie]

That's a real unpopular article for some people on here..... you know, for the people who think it's ok to overload a vehicle and drive it down the road potentially right next to you and your family.

I listened to a funny interview with Wes. He advocated for paying close attention to payload. Later in the interview he mentioned he drives 100mph everywhere in his lifted Ranger despite the speeding tickets he's accumulated. I'm not sure doing 100mph is any safer than overloading a Tacoma....

 

[MR E30]

you seem to love reading into anything and everything to justify overloading a truck... emotion <> fact.

Lol.

I literally brought Newton, and an equation into my example, and you still mention emotions over facts. Phew.

You respond to rruff, another guy who used numbers and math mind you, again with the 'emotions over a logical, factual comparison' argument, demanding he performs a C&D level set of tests before you can be appeased.

This should go without saying, but I DO NOT condone massively overloading any vehicle, and the recent trend of putting large, full size house cubes on the back of mid-sized trucks is something I am not a fan of, nor do I think it safe or wise to do.

But 50-200 lb. over the GVWR? Let's be real here. Especially since Pennsylvania, the Keystone State of all states, allows you to legally increase your vehicles GVWR with the simple signature of a mechanic. Not an engineer. Not after crash tests, or any tests for that matter. Just with the signature of an automotive mechanic. That alone destroys the argument about the absoluteness of the GVWR.

My next door neighbor is a City of Phoenix police officer who has been investigating vehicle accidents, in which death occurs, for the last 15 years. He couldn't quote me an exact percentage, but he guessed that over 75%, and probably close to 90% of the vehicle accidents that resulted in a death are due to excessive speed, with distracted/impaired driving being a contributing factor.

I am unsure of how to be more factual than this. I suppose I could depose him and demand he provides me all of the supporting paperwork, which I could then present to you. But something tells me that that too would be met with a one line response which includes some trivial assumption and corresponding unremarkable comment.

 

[rruff]

sigh...
you can't state the brakes are "great" on a Tacoma and "bad" on a Tremor (emphasis mine) while ignoring almost 4000 lbs weight difference. Put that 4k in a Tacoma and compare the brakes between the Tacoma and the Tremor and report back using the same method as the C&D article your entire argument is wed to.

Otherwise, you're comparing apples and oranges and holding to an emotional position instead of a logical, factual comparison.

No idea why people, especially on this site, demand that Toyota is immune to physics.

I never said the brakes on a Tacoma were "great". I stated that you can't claim the brakes on a Tremor are adequate and the Tacoma are not, when both are carrying the same load. Stock braking distance of the Tacoma is only 79% of the Tremor's. Add 3500 lbs to each and the Tacoma still wins (probably).

Making them the same weight makes zero sense... that's definitely an apples to oranges comparison. Isn't stopping distance while carrying the same payload the important point here?

No one is stating that Toyotas are immune to physics. It's a fact however that due to the Tacomas much lighter weight, if you do a semi-intelligent job of upgrading the suspension and tires, it will handle better than a HD pickup... even carrying the same load... and will also brake as well.

Given that, why would would there be a safety concern?

That's a real unpopular article for some people on here..... you know, for the people who think it's ok to overload a vehicle and drive it down the road potentially right next to you and your family.

It's unpopular because most of the assertions he makes are wrong... provably. It's an opinion rant, not reality.

 

[bkg]

I never said the brakes on a Tacoma were "great". I stated that you can't claim the brakes on a Tremor are adequate and the Tacoma are not, when both are carrying the same load. Stock braking distance of the Tacoma is only 79% of the Tremor's. Add 3500 lbs to each and the Tacoma still wins (probably).

Making them the same weight makes zero sense... that's definitely an apples to oranges comparison. Isn't stopping distance while carrying the same payload the important point here?

No one is stating that Toyotas are immune to physics. It's a fact however that due to the Tacomas much lighter weight, if you do a semi-intelligent job of upgrading the suspension and tires, it will handle better than a HD pickup... even carrying the same load... and will also brake as well.

Given that, why would would there be a safety concern?


It's unpopular because most of the assertions he makes are wrong... provably. It's an opinion rant, not reality.

According to your logic, though, a Prius may have better brakes than a Tacoma (if it has a shorter stopping distance) and therefore handle being overloaded better than a tremor.

You’re also assuming that impacts of load are linear between the Tacoma and Tremor. That may not be the case, which is why I keep asking you to compare braking at equal weights. Adding 3500 to both and you think the Tacoma still wins, but don’t know.

At least be honest and admit that everything you e posted about being overloaded is your opinion, not fact.

 

[rruff]

According to your logic, though, a Prius may have better brakes than a Tacoma (if it has a shorter stopping distance) and therefore handle being overloaded better than a tremor.

You’re also assuming that impacts of load are linear between the Tacoma and Tremor. That may not be the case, which is why I keep asking you to compare braking at equal weights. Adding 3500 to both and you think the Tacoma still wins, but don’t know.

At least be honest and admit that everything you e posted about being overloaded is your opinion, not fact.

I stated that the criteria was a 70-0 stop. If you believe a different criteria should be used, lets see it. It don't know what you mean by "better brakes".

I stated that the worst case is that the Tacoma is traction limited up to GVWR, and at weights above that, the energy dissipation rate of the brakes is the limiting factor. That's all. Kinetic energy is proportional to mass, so the stopping distance would increase (deceleration would decrease) proportional to the mass at weight over GVWR. It's not going to be worse than that unless the pads melt or something during a single 70-0 stop.

The effect of weight on the tire-road friction coefficient is unknown, but it is less than proportional. It will depend on the tire compounds, the size of the tires, and the pressure as well. For instance in this case the Tremor empty weight is ~1.8x the Tacoma's, but the stopping distance is 1.28x. If you like we can assume that this relationship is a constant? Stopping distance increasing at 35% of the weight increase?

Maybe more numbers will make it clearer. So, stock Tacoma TRD Pro: 4450 lbs, 70-0 in 180 ft. GVWR is 5600 lbs. 20% overload is 6720 lbs, or 2270 lbs over stock.

Up to 5600 lbs the Tacoma is traction limited. 35% of the weight ratio (4450 to 5600) gives a new stopping distance of 196.3 ft Above that assume it's brake limited. 100% of the weight ratio from 5600 to 6720 lbs gives us 235.6 ft.

The Tremor diesel weighs 8050 lbs, and takes 229 ft to stop from 70-0. Add the same weight of 2270 lbs as we added to the Tacoma, and it's up to 10,320 lbs. The Tremor will remain traction limited rather than brake limited with this load. 35% of the weight ratio gives us a new stopping distance of 251.6 ft.

It's not an opinion, it's a statement of assumptions... and then physics.

 

[wicked1]

So anyway.....
I'm still alive, at least several trips across the country in my 7500lb taco, since I last posted.

My suspension is (until tomorrow) OME Nitrocharger Sport, w/ the heavier, 660lb springs. Rear are a Deaver pack made for the weight, w/ airbags for load adjustment and leveling.. (usually 20-40psi.). It's stable on the highway and in corners. Good over slow movements like dips and humps. Really horrible over washboard or potholes. I know a lot of the issue there is w/ the weight and tires needing to be relatively high inflation.
But, the old shocks are finally wearing out. So, tomorrow I'm putting on some tuned fox suspension.. I went w/ that instead of the bp-51's because it seems like while the bp-51's are definitely good and adjustable, they can't be expecting to carry the weight of a camper.. So I wanted to try custom tuned.

I have never bottomed out w/ the OME setup.. It's quite stiff. And, I go slow. I am fully aware I have a tiny house on my back, w/ all my stuff in it.. I'm not taking risks and jumping dunes.

Braking was an issue.. (I bought the truck used, and there were some maintenance issues and areas for improvements). But, after rotors, different pads, adjusting the rears, and bleeding the system.. it's fine.. I can lock up the wheels or get ABS to engage. (when I first got the truck, I couldn't).

I did kill my rear differential once.. But that was just a mistake on my part. I've been on many very rough 'roads' in this thing, before and since then.
The truck is regeared, but it wasn't the aftermarket gears which stripped.. I replaced the stripped OEM spiders w/ a locker.

I'll post in a week or so, after I try the new suspension for a while.

 

[MR E30]

I have never bottomed out w/ the OME setup.. It's quite stiff. And, I go slow. I am fully aware I have a tiny house on my back, w/ all my stuff in it.. I'm not taking risks and jumping dunes.

I tried telling this to my friend but he wouldn't listen..........

Untitled by Michael Rickerd, on Flickr