Tacoma that's 1600 lbs over GVWR... recertifying and wheeling

[rruff]

This would lead one to think that loaded trucks take longer to stop than empty ones, but I'm afraid that's not right. The breaks, springs, shock absorbers, and tires on heavy load trucks are specifically designed to work better when the vehicle is loaded.

They are right about the springs and shock absorbers anyway. There is so much wrong in that article... but it figures since it's a law firm.

 

[kmacafee]

The "very specific circumstance" of both carrying a 2600 lb load above their curb weights, and a panic stop from 70 mph. The Tacoma has a big "headstart" with a stopping distance of 180 ft vs 229 ft at curb weight. Even if you assume that the Tacoma is brake limited at >GVWR, it still stops quicker. If you put larger diameter tires on the Tacoma and it's brake limited, it would be a little worse. There isn't much in it.


You may have missed that GVWR isn't a legal limit for the owner. Being over GVWR does absolve the manufacturer from liability though, which is the purpose of it.

I get the GVWR isn't a legal limit for the owner. However, and I have been involved in an insurance case that used GVRW, it is THE number that will be used by insurance companies and the courts to determine if a vehicle being overweight is a factor in a collision. Why? Because its considered the standard set by the manufacturer and is what, in theory anyways, the weight that the rest of the vehicle components are designed around -- brakes, steering, frame etc. The case I referenced involved a 1 ton dually pickup carrying a load of rock and lumber and the truck ran into another vehicle killing a passenger. An engineer from Ford testified that they design vehicle components around the GVRW which has a fudge factor built into it so being a little overweight (a "little" was never specified) is not really an issue. In this case, it was determined that the vehicle was overloaded by about 2000 pounds which dramatically affected braking and steering. The criminal charges were dropped but the insurance company that insured the truck successfully rejected the claim and the driver was sued for multi-millions which was settled out of court for less. The independent accident investigator testified that the brakes failed and front steering and suspension parts collapsed when the load shifted on impact. The driver's attorney argued that the parts were defective but the Ford engineer, after examining the truck, testified under oath, that the parts weren't defective - they just were not designed to panic stop a vehicle with that much weight. So absent a standard like GVRW, there would be no way to determine if a vehicle is overweight or not. Did it protect Ford from liability in this case - you bet because it wasn't Ford's fault. It was the driver/owner who overloaded it.

The "very specific circumstance" of both carrying a 2600 lb load above their curb weights, and a panic stop from 70 mph. The Tacoma has a big "headstart" with a stopping distance of 180 ft vs 229 ft at curb weight. Even if you assume that the Tacoma is brake limited at >GVWR, it still stops quicker. If you put larger diameter tires on the Tacoma and it's brake limited, it would be a little worse. There isn't much in it."

Sure it stops quicker but if its overloaded and hits another vehicle, does it matter? I've owned several Tacomas and the difference in the braking system between it and my 1 ton Ram are night and day -- bigger rotors and calipers and much beefier support. Some mechanic signing off that the vehicle is fine overloaded might give the owner peace of mind but it wont matter if he is held liable. And my bet is if the insurance underwriters were aware of it, they'd have a huge issue with it given how risk adverse they typically are. And that assumes he told his insurance company - if he didn't, thats fraud and whole other set of issues.

 

[kmacafee]

The one being driven by an idiot...

If it can tow a 6100 lb trailer up and down it with easy, it shouldn't have a bit of trouble with a 2600 lb load.

Can the 2016 Toyota Tacoma Tow Better than the 2015 Tacoma on the Ike Gauntlet? [Video]

The 2016 Toyota Tacoma is ready to take on the mighty Ike Gauntlet towing test. During the test, we take a truck - loaded nearly to the max - up and down an 8 m

tfltruck.com

Again, not a fair comparison. The trailer load rating is always higher than payload because the trailer is riding on its own axle(s). The payload is weight on truck's axles.

 

[nickw]

The one being driven by an idiot...

If it can tow a 6100 lb trailer up and down it with easy, it shouldn't have a bit of trouble with a 2600 lb load.

Can the 2016 Toyota Tacoma Tow Better than the 2015 Tacoma on the Ike Gauntlet? [Video]

The 2016 Toyota Tacoma is ready to take on the mighty Ike Gauntlet towing test. During the test, we take a truck - loaded nearly to the max - up and down an 8 m

tfltruck.com

Well in regards to the going DOWN part you are wrong since you are ignoring trailer brakes - using your example it would be equivalent to "Unbraked" trailer weight, Tacoma's are only allowed to tow 1,000 lbs without trailer brakes:

Toyota Tacoma Owners Manual: Trailer towing - Driving information - When driving

www.ttguide.net

Not to mention anything of front vs rear axle weight ratings which are going to be grossly exceeded.

 

[nickw]

Again, not a fair comparison. The trailer load rating is always higher than payload because the trailer is riding on its own axle(s). The payload is weight on truck's axles.

Trailers are doing their own braking too - per my comment ^

 

[Alloy]

The one being driven by an idiot...

If it can tow a 6100 lb trailer up and down it with easy, it shouldn't have a bit of trouble with a 2600 lb load.

Can the 2016 Toyota Tacoma Tow Better than the 2015 Tacoma on the Ike Gauntlet? [Video]

The 2016 Toyota Tacoma is ready to take on the mighty Ike Gauntlet towing test. During the test, we take a truck - loaded nearly to the max - up and down an 8 m

tfltruck.com

The best part of the video is when both of them said they didn't feel comfortable down hill. That's with NO overload and 4 more sets of brakes.

 

[Alloy]

I get the GVWR isn't a legal limit for the owner. However, and I have been involved in an insurance case that used GVRW, it is THE number that will be used by insurance companies and the courts to determine if a vehicle being overweight is a factor in a collision. Why? Because its considered the standard set by the manufacturer and is what, in theory anyways, the weight that the rest of the vehicle components are designed around -- brakes, steering, frame etc. The case I referenced involved a 1 ton dually pickup carrying a load of rock and lumber and the truck ran into another vehicle killing a passenger. An engineer from Ford testified that they design vehicle components around the GVRW which has a fudge factor built into it so being a little overweight (a "little" was never specified) is not really an issue. In this case, it was determined that the vehicle was overloaded by about 2000 pounds which dramatically affected braking and steering. The criminal charges were dropped but the insurance company that insured the truck successfully rejected the claim and the driver was sued for multi-millions which was settled out of court for less. The independent accident investigator testified that the brakes failed and front steering and suspension parts collapsed when the load shifted on impact. The driver's attorney argued that the parts were defective but the Ford engineer, after examining the truck, testified under oath, that the parts weren't defective - they just were not designed to panic stop a vehicle with that much weight. So absent a standard like GVRW, there would be no way to determine if a vehicle is overweight or not. Did it protect Ford from liability in this case - you bet because it wasn't Ford's fault. It was the driver/owner who overloaded it.

The "very specific circumstance" of both carrying a 2600 lb load above their curb weights, and a panic stop from 70 mph. The Tacoma has a big "headstart" with a stopping distance of 180 ft vs 229 ft at curb weight. Even if you assume that the Tacoma is brake limited at >GVWR, it still stops quicker. If you put larger diameter tires on the Tacoma and it's brake limited, it would be a little worse. There isn't much in it."

Sure it stops quicker but if its overloaded and hits another vehicle, does it matter? I've owned several Tacomas and the difference in the braking system between it and my 1 ton Ram are night and day -- bigger rotors and calipers and much beefier support. Some mechanic signing off that the vehicle is fine overloaded might give the owner peace of mind but it wont matter if he is held liable. And my bet is if the insurance underwriters were aware of it, they'd have a huge issue with it given how risk adverse they typically are. And that assumes he told his insurance company - if he didn't, thats fraud and whole other set of issues.

The truck must have been a F350 DRW as the componets are not shared with vehicles that have a higer GVWR.

 

[rruff]

Again, not a fair comparison. The trailer load rating is always higher than payload because the trailer is riding on its own axle(s). The payload is weight on truck's axles.

I was answering the comment that said the truck would overheat going up that hill.

Well in regards to the going DOWN part you are wrong since you are ignoring trailer brakes - using your example it would be equivalent to "Unbraked" trailer weight.

The best part of the video is when both of them said they didn't feel comfortable down hill. That's with NO overload and 4 more sets of brakes.

That's because that Tacoma has no auto trailer brake controller or auto-downshift on descents (which he stated). They just put it in D and use the brakes to slow down to keep it "fair"... ie use the truck's automatic systems... or in other words, drive like an idiot.

In this case, it was determined that the vehicle was overloaded by about 2000 pounds which dramatically affected braking and steering. The criminal charges were dropped but the insurance company that insured the truck successfully rejected the claim and the driver was sued for multi-millions which was settled out of court for less. The independent accident investigator testified that the brakes failed and front steering and suspension parts collapsed when the load shifted on impact. The driver's attorney argued that the parts were defective but the Ford engineer, after examining the truck, testified under oath, that the parts weren't defective - they just were not designed to panic stop a vehicle with that much weight.

The brakes failed and the front suspension parts collapsed before impact or after? It sounds like you are saying after, but if it's after, how did that contribute to the accident?

Is there a detailed summary of this available somewhere?

It reminds me a little bit of the guy towing a 37k lb boat down from Tahoe to Carson City... with an F350; burned his brakes, blew a stop light and killed 2 people. Got 3-10 years.

Reports: Driver in fatal runaway boat collision sentenced to 3-10 years

Driver in Nov. 9, 2021, fatal runaway boat wreck sentenced

www.recordcourier.com

 

[nickw]

I was answering the comment that said the truck would overheat going up that hill.



That's because that Tacoma has no trailer brake controller or auto-downshift on descents. They just put it in D and use the brakes to slow down to keep it "fair"... ie use the truck's automatic systems... or in other words, drive like an idiot.


The brakes failed and the front suspension parts collapsed before impact or after? It sounds like you are saying after, but...

Is there a detailed summary of this available somewhere? Was the driver working for a business?

TOYOTA doesn't rate vehicle to tow more than 1k unbraked - so you are blatantly wrong when you said hauling 2600 should be doable if it can tow 6100, they are not comparable.

Why don't we use your other example though:

"If the Tacoma was loaded to the same weight as the Tremor and given the same tires, I suspect it would do about the same"

So lets re-run the thought experiment, both rigs at 9,500 lbs, under the Tremors 10k GVWR and over the Tacomas GVWR by a lot.

You make mistakes driving - we all do, the other guy may be an idiot but we are all that other guy at some point. Even if you could make it down the pass safely in 2nd gear at 15 mph on the freeway doesn't mean it's a good idea and doesn't validate your point - sorry.

 

[rruff]

"If the Tacoma was loaded to the same weight as the Tremor and given the same tires, I suspect it would do about the same"

You are really being a ********. I explained that at least twice already in this thread, and in the other one you linked. It's irrelevant. Loading them with the same amount of weight is relevant. Stick to that.

 

[nickw]

You are really being a ********. I explained that at least twice already in this thread, and in the other one you linked. It's irrelevant. Loading them with the same amount of weight is relevant. Stick to that.

I'm not being anything - it's a point you brought up to defend your position, i.e. two vehicles that weigh the same should have same or sim braking performance which isn't logical.

 

[AbleGuy]

My rule of thumb that helps encourage me to be relatively and reasonably cautious in my driving behavior and vehicle use/loading:

Never underestimate the greed of lawyers or the stupidity of jurors.


(Correlation: Why unnecessarily risk doing something that’s otherwise easily avoidable, that potentially puts you at the mercy of that ⬆️ dangerous combination of humanity)

These are guidelines more easily followed by me at age 70+ than they were at age 20+, FWIW

 

[AbleGuy]

There’s overloading, and then there’s OVERLOADING!

Why have pickup truck manufacturers traditionally based their “when loaded with 4 people” GVWC using @ 155 lbs as the average weight of each occupant?

(A new take here on that old saying, “all hat, no cattle,” could be “all fat, no throttle.”)

 

[Todd780]

View attachment 798816

There’s overloading, and then there’s OVERLOADING!

Why have pickup truck manufacturers traditionally based their “when loaded with 4 people” GVWC using @ 155 lbs as the average weight of each occupant?

(A new take here on that old saying, “all hat, no cattle,” could be “all fat, no throttle.”)

I don't think they do that anymore. Payload calculations includes all cargo and passengers.

 

[rruff]

I'm not being anything - it's a point you brought up to defend your position, i.e. two vehicles that weigh the same should have same or sim braking performance which isn't logical.

Good lord, I didn't bring it up in this thread at all, you did... and it was something I wrote in another thread a good while ago, not in this one!

And here you are again, ignoring the very basic assumption that the statement was based on... that both trucks are traction limited! I later decided (in the earlier thread which you linked) that this was likely unrealistic, and then assumed that they were traction limited up to GVWR, and brake limited above that. I've made zero references to that statement to defend my position.