Tacoma that's 1600 lbs over GVWR... recertifying and wheeling

[rruff]

Thought this was an interesting article, in light of many GVWR discussions. Apparently in PA you can get a mechanic to sign off on upping your GVWR so you'll be "legal". I don't know if this is possible in any other state. https://expeditionportal.com/is-your-overland-vehicle-overweight-here-is-a-possible-solution/

The process involves no engineering or testing. "My mechanic and I have a decades-long history of jointly handling repairs and maintenance for my vehicles, and I have a lot of experience in the vehicle maintenance business. My mechanic also had seen the build pictures of our camper as it progressed, and he knew our camper was built to a very capable and high standard. He had no problems signing the MV-41." The suspension was upgraded, and tires.

The result? "In short, it is a very capable offroad rig but came up just shy of being a rock crawler, which was our objective.... For many places that we go, people often ask, “How did that get here?”—a sign of a successful build if there ever was one."

 

[nickw]

Thought this was an interesting article, in light of many GVWR discussions. Apparently in PA you can get a mechanic to sign off on upping your GVWR so you'll be "legal". I don't know if this is possible in any other state. https://expeditionportal.com/is-your-overland-vehicle-overweight-here-is-a-possible-solution/

The process involves no engineering or testing. "My mechanic and I have a decades-long history of jointly handling repairs and maintenance for my vehicles, and I have a lot of experience in the vehicle maintenance business. My mechanic also had seen the build pictures of our camper as it progressed, and he knew our camper was built to a very capable and high standard. He had no problems signing the MV-41." The suspension was upgraded, and tires.

The result? "In short, it is a very capable offroad rig but came up just shy of being a rock crawler, which was our objective.... For many places that we go, people often ask, “How did that get here?”—a sign of a successful build if there ever was one."

All they are doing is transferring or allowing the transfer of liability to a 3rd party from the OEM, in this guys case, it's his buddy mechanic who signed off on it based on pictures. Any legitimate mechanic wouldn't touch this for a random unknown person and a bet that mechanics insurance company wouldn't cover his butt if the Tacoma's rear axle failed, crashed and killed somebody...you know who'd they'd be coming after, not Toyota, that mechanic is 100% responsible.

Does not in any way validate that it's a good idea or the right call.

 

[nickw]

On second look, it seems like they missed a form:

"If the vehicle has been modified, such as the addition or removal of axles, or you are requesting a change to the manufacturer weight specifications, Form MV-426B must be completed."

Form MV-426B:

I am requesting a r street rod, r collectible or r modified vehicle. A detailed description of how the vehicle is configured (chassis, body components, engine, etc.) including all modifications, is attached. I understand my Pennsylvania Certificate of Title will be branded as a street rod, collectible or modified vehicle

This part of MV-426B confusing though:

Weight Certification - The weight certification for trucks, truck-tractors and trailers must be completed by a certified enhanced vehicle safety inspector if the correct weight(s) do not appear on the vehicle's certificate of title or salvage certificate (such as unladen weight, gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating). A weight slip for the unladen (empty) weight must be attached if the correct unladen weight does not appear on the certificate of title or salvage certificate. It is not necessary to complete the weight certification in order to change the registered gross weight of a vehicle. Previously titled vehicles that have been altered to raise or lower the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) must be certified by the vehicle manufacturer. A new VIN-specific weight certification decal must be issued for the vehicle by the manufacturer. This label must be affixed to the left (driver's side) door jamb or door latch post.

The part in green and red seem do disagree.

 

[rruff]

That does sound confusing. At any rate this isn't an option in most states. And it is quite ridiculous to have a random mechanic do this... especially for such a large amount GVWR. In IL I think you could alter your GVWR on registration, but this was mostly for commercial users who wanted to lower their GVWR to save on taxes and fees.

I'm not concerned about legality, because GVWR isn't a legal issue anyway for private users; it's a manufacturer liability and warranty number. The interesting part to me is the extent that he is over GVWR (almost 30%), and yet he subjects the rig to pretty extreme use. Also, even with a very light camper (600 lbs), the upgrades and stuff you bring with you really add up... in this case he added 2,600 lbs to a 4,600 lb truck. This is common for Tacomas that are made into overland camping rigs. I remember seeing an article on one that only had a canopy shell on the back, and yet his was a similar weight when loaded up.

 

[nickw]

That does sound confusing. At any rate this isn't an option in most states. And it is quite ridiculous to have a random mechanic do this... especially for such a large amount GVWR. In IL I think you could alter your GVWR on registration, but this was mostly for commercial users who wanted to lower their GVWR to save on taxes and fees.

I'm not concerned about legality, because GVWR isn't a legal issue anyway for private users; it's a manufacturer liability and warranty number. The interesting part to me is the extent that he is over GVWR (almost 30%), and yet he subjects the rig to pretty extreme use. Also, even with a very light camper (600 lbs), the upgrades and stuff you bring with you really add up... in this case he added 2,600 lbs to a 4,600 lb truck. This is common for Tacomas that are made into overland camping rigs. I remember seeing an article on one that only had a canopy shell on the back, and yet his was a similar weight when loaded up.

That 'mechanic' is a knucklehead - from a courts perspective, I'm not a lawyer, but would assume the mech is fully liable for any issues if there was any legal action down the road.

I know people disagree with me, I'm fine with that, but overloading rig like this IMO is irresponsible....but it's a free country, so is what it is, just don't lose a rear wheel going down a steep pass at 70 when I'm next to you....but I'm getting older and crankier by the day and am getting conservative with stuff like this, I've seen too much and been involved in too much unfortunately.

I know he wanted a "small" rig, he'd be way better off buying a PowerWagon and overloading that since it can handle the weight reasonably and has OEM lockers and HD drivetrain and 37's and just dealing with the size constraints....which lets be honest, are the exception on trails with any sort of camper.

I think a setup like @ramblinChet is ideal.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Normally changing the GVWR requires a manufacturer that's DOT recognized. It's not something you can do randomly as a mechanic or engineer. The OEM is of course the first and usually the only one that can do it but it's done by upfitters or limo builders. In those cases the GVWR may not be given by the OEM (the vehicle is sold incomplete) and assigned when the vehicle is completed, either by the aftermarket or the OEM itself (Ford has a department known as the vehicle special order to do it). They usually want it lowered and often to keep it under 26k so drivers don't need a CDL or like @rruff says to bring down taxes.

 

[nickw]

Normally changing the GVWR requires a manufacturer that's DOT recognized. It's not something you can do randomly as a mechanic or engineer. The OEM is of course the first and usually the only one that can do it but it's done by upfitters or limo builders. In those cases the GVWR may not be given by the OEM (the vehicle is sold incomplete) and assigned when the vehicle is completed, either by the aftermarket or the OEM itself (Ford has a department known as the vehicle special order to do it). They usually want it lowered and often to keep it under 26k so drivers don't need a CDL or like @rruff says to bring down taxes.

Apparently you can do it in PA per the article linked above....

 

[IdaSHO]

All they are doing is transferring or allowing the transfer of liability to a 3rd party from the OEM, in this guys case, it's his buddy mechanic who signed off on it based on pictures. Any legitimate mechanic wouldn't touch this for a random unknown person and a bet that mechanics insurance company wouldn't cover his butt if the Tacoma's rear axle failed, crashed and killed somebody...you know who'd they'd be coming after, not Toyota, that mechanic is 100% responsible.

Does not in any way validate that it's a good idea or the right call.

Oh hey, its LAWYER related! So since you are the resident expert....

What sort of margin would a legal team of a vehicle MFG apply to a GVWR, to best protect their client in the event of a claim?

Asking for a friend.

 

[kmacafee]

It might be questionably legal in Pennsylvania but I would be more concerned about insurance and civil liability. I'm not an attorney but spent a fair amount of time in the insurance industry and this has so many red flags, its unlikely he would get insurance on that vehicle. Of course, he could lie but if the title is modified, thats public record and the underwriters would see it. Even if he self insures the collision coverage, Pennsylvania requires a minimum of liability coverage which would not be near enough coverage in the event of injuries.

 

[nickw]

These weight threads have made me so paranoid. Can’t stop reading about it. It was the Baja ram that snapped in half that caught my attention. I don’t know why I always do my research after the fact, it’s been a contstent theme in my history with buying vehicles.

I am really writing this just to reiterate what rruff says above about how much all your gear weighs when added with water fuel etc.

I bought a power wagonin 21 with the goal of putting a go fast in with draws etc. Ran it on a couple of trips and enjoyed but wanted more comfort. Enduro campers was just starting up and had an estimated weight of 1200lbs, -300lbs for bed removal. Basically with the power wagon you get around 1500lbs payload so I thought add another 500lbs of gear and I would be a little over gvrw. Say 9000lbs total. I called thuren and gave them my estimated weights etc and ordered a full king setup. I already had airbags installed as the truck was already sagging with go fast and decked draws.

The truck drives nice and after a few other mods hellwig etc I am very happy with the way it performs. When I started reading threads like this I thought I’d head to the scales all loaded up with me included (300lbs).

front axle 4500
rear axle 5800
total 10300

I was shocked. As a comparison I sent my brother down to get his truck weighed he has the same pw with go fast, draws fridge etc. I don’t remember his split but I was shocked again by the weight.

total
9250lbs he weighs around 250 (don’t judge we’re big boys both 6’6).

conclusion

All your gear adds up. Tools, supplies, recovery gear and electrical systems are heavy. Amazed that even a light build on a pw is over gvr. I need to go on a diet. Should have read More forums beforehand. I am happy with the platform and it really handles well both on and off road. I am confident it is safe, and handles better than friends rigs with more weight and that are below there stated gvrw. Wish I had built on 1ton so I could sleep at night. The lure of the pw was too great at the time. My background is with jeeps and crazy trails so I thought needed lockers etc. In reality with a rig this size I’m not taking it to the same places I go in my Jeep, so not sure I need the lockers etc although it’s still nice to have.

Hope this helps someone in the future.

Off all the rigs that are an exception to overloading, the PowerWagon is at the top....it's a de-rated 3/4T platform due to soft springs, sneaking just above GVWR with upgraded springs wouldn't bother me as much as all the other rigs out there....liability aside.

 

[Alloy]

On second look, it seems like they missed a form:

"If the vehicle has been modified, such as the addition or removal of axles, or you are requesting a change to the manufacturer weight specifications, Form MV-426B must be completed."

Form MV-426B:

I am requesting a r street rod, r collectible or r modified vehicle. A detailed description of how the vehicle is configured (chassis, body components, engine, etc.) including all modifications, is attached. I understand my Pennsylvania Certificate of Title will be branded as a street rod, collectible or modified vehicle

This part of MV-426B confusing though:

Weight Certification - The weight certification for trucks, truck-tractors and trailers must be completed by a certified enhanced vehicle safety inspector if the correct weight(s) do not appear on the vehicle's certificate of title or salvage certificate (such as unladen weight, gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating). A weight slip for the unladen (empty) weight must be attached if the correct unladen weight does not appear on the certificate of title or salvage certificate. It is not necessary to complete the weight certification in order to change the registered gross weight of a vehicle. Previously titled vehicles that have been altered to raise or lower the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) must be certified by the vehicle manufacturer. A new VIN-specific weight certification decal must be issued for the vehicle by the manufacturer. This label must be affixed to the left (driver's side) door jamb or door latch post.

The part in green and red seem do disagree.

Green is the vehicle is incomplete (a cab and chassis or a cut away van).

Red the vehicle is complete and registered to the owner.

Here in BC we can ( I have ) change the GVWR after the vehicle is registered. It requires an engineer (for liability) and a shop (not any mechanic) that is gov. certified to inspect the class of vehicle being modified.

 

[calicamper]

I think the title is very funny.
1600lbs over max and wheeling (presumably that means some sort of 4x4 required terrain). Wheeling a Tacoma with 400lbs in the bed and 400lbs in the cab is an exercise in power management lol.

Wheeling A tacoma thats 1600 over max is either 4x4 low to just drive up a steep dirt road vs not, or maybe crawl over parking blocks at the mall😆.

Lets be clear here even a full sized 1/2 ton with Tacoma payload plus 1600lbs and 2x the power isn’t going to be “wheeling” it might be traveling down dirt roads but hauling gear to a work site but it’s definitely not going to be “wheeling”

All the “wheeling” types go as light as possible to avoid getting stuck or worse breaking stuff.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

At the end of the day the truck owner will be out of a seat if the music stops- not the mechanic. Anyone ever read the 10 pages of fine print on your auto policy- no way they’d defend this guy.

 

[nickw]

Green is the vehicle is incomplete (a cab and chassis or a cut away van).

Red the vehicle is complete and registered to the owner.

Here in BC we can ( I have ) change the GVWR after the vehicle is registered. It requires an engineer (for liability) and a shop (not any mechanic) that is gov. certified to inspect the class of vehicle being modified.

So wouldn't his truck fall under the red then? That would require the vehicle manuf. unless I am missing something.

 

[rruff]

Anyone ever read the 10 pages of fine print on your auto policy- no way they’d defend this guy.

If you have and have found something related to GVWR, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

If you mean insurance on the upgrades to the truck and the camper itself, then ya... that won't be covered unless you've specifically included them.