I'll quote the article:
The article doesn't speak about density of the pack, but rather of cells that make it. The number doesn't include electronics, cooling and enclosure.
TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain
- Thread starter biotect
- Start date
I'll quote the article:
Took a look at extract from the Tesla Battery Report (which doesn't seem available for free):
http://totalbatteryconsulting.com/i...ort/Extract-from-the-Tesla-battery-report.pdf
Interesting notes:
* They don't use full capacity of their cells (to make them last longer?). 85 kWh pack has 80 kWh actually, which brings energy density down to 147 Wh/kg
* They use cells rated at 3250 mAh, the top ones are 3400 mAh from Panasonic
* They have 7104 cells for 48 g each. That means that cells weight 341 kg and other pack components - 203 kg.
* 48 g / cell * 233 Wh/kg = 11.184 Wh/cell
* If we replaced cells with the top Panasonic ones, the pack would get from 85/80 kWh to 93/87.5. The weight would also drop by 14 kg. That would result in 165 Wh/kg (actual).
References:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary UK.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/12/panasonic-20091225.html
http://totalbatteryconsulting.com/i...ort/Extract-from-the-Tesla-battery-report.pdf
Interesting notes:
* They don't use full capacity of their cells (to make them last longer?). 85 kWh pack has 80 kWh actually, which brings energy density down to 147 Wh/kg
* They use cells rated at 3250 mAh, the top ones are 3400 mAh from Panasonic
* They have 7104 cells for 48 g each. That means that cells weight 341 kg and other pack components - 203 kg.
* 48 g / cell * 233 Wh/kg = 11.184 Wh/cell
* If we replaced cells with the top Panasonic ones, the pack would get from 85/80 kWh to 93/87.5. The weight would also drop by 14 kg. That would result in 165 Wh/kg (actual).
References:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary UK.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/12/panasonic-20091225.html
biotect
Designer
safas,
You must be an engineer!! :ylsmoke:
Many thanks for that correction. Still, 165 Wh/kg is a much better figure than the one that I originally guessed. And it gives me a nice "design target", because I figure that by 2018 - 2020, the density might be as good as 200 Wh/kg. Remember, some designers just don't care about such things, and they will just vaguely specify "oh, and the motorhome will be a serial hybrid." Whereas I want to eventually come up with CAD drawings that seem half-realistic.
Now even 200 Wh/kg would seem to justify a 300 KW battery pack instead of a 200 KW battery pack, again the goal being maximum noise-free glamping, even in equatorial climates that have poor DNI and low wind. Most people think that maximum DNI is available at the equator, but they are wrong, because most equatorial countries are sopping wet with rain, and overcast with clouds. So too, most equatorial countries have low average wind-speeds. But it will be exactly when driving through equatorial countries that the TerraLiner will want maximum air-conditioning, so a 300 KW battery pack combined with a 300 KW generator will make the TerraLiner far less of a nuisance for other campers, or anyone within earshot.
A 100,000 BTU Air-Conditioning system would consume about 30 KWh, but because the TerraLiner will be well-insulated, I don't think one needs to multiply that figure by 24 hours. Rather, using my earlier estimates, the TerraLiner will probably consume a maximum of 70 - 100 KWh per day when glamping in climates that have a high Heat Index (100 - 120), and that will require full use of the Air-Conditioning system. So with a 300 Kw battery pack, even if there's poor solar and little wind, the TerraLiner should be able to enjoy at least 4 days of noise-free glamping before having the run the 300 KW generator for an hour to recharge the battery pack. Probably longer; probably more like a week.
egn has written that even 1 hour per 4 days is too much, and that other campers will freak out, especially the Germans who think that Air-Conditioning "ist einfach nicht zu rechtfertigen" (simply not justifiable), and should be "absolute verboten" (absolutely forbidden). But the TerraLiner will be autonomously "dry camping" mostly on farmland anyway, getting to know local people, instead of just hooking up with the same crowd of well-off First-World motorhomers. So there probably won't be any Germans anywhere in sight to complain about a generator running for just one hour every four days.....:sombrero:
Using 200 Wh/kg as a baseline figure, 1 KW then weighs 5 kg, so a 300 KW battery pack should weigh about 1500 kg. Still less than the 2000 kg that I originally guestimated for 200 KW.
Calculating further, how much volume would you very roughly guestimate that 1500 kg of such batteries might occupy, circa 2018 - 2020? Just a flat figure in cubic meters would be sufficient, and it doesn't have to be exact. It just needs to be an "educated" guess; and if anyone on the forum could make that educated guess, it would be you. I would then take that number in cubic meters and distribute the batteries where I saw fit. One of the virtues of the Tesla small-battery approach is that it allows tremendous flexibility when it comes to battery placement.
All best wishes, and again, many thanks,
Biotect
You must be an engineer!! :ylsmoke:
Many thanks for that correction. Still, 165 Wh/kg is a much better figure than the one that I originally guessed. And it gives me a nice "design target", because I figure that by 2018 - 2020, the density might be as good as 200 Wh/kg. Remember, some designers just don't care about such things, and they will just vaguely specify "oh, and the motorhome will be a serial hybrid." Whereas I want to eventually come up with CAD drawings that seem half-realistic.
Now even 200 Wh/kg would seem to justify a 300 KW battery pack instead of a 200 KW battery pack, again the goal being maximum noise-free glamping, even in equatorial climates that have poor DNI and low wind. Most people think that maximum DNI is available at the equator, but they are wrong, because most equatorial countries are sopping wet with rain, and overcast with clouds. So too, most equatorial countries have low average wind-speeds. But it will be exactly when driving through equatorial countries that the TerraLiner will want maximum air-conditioning, so a 300 KW battery pack combined with a 300 KW generator will make the TerraLiner far less of a nuisance for other campers, or anyone within earshot.
A 100,000 BTU Air-Conditioning system would consume about 30 KWh, but because the TerraLiner will be well-insulated, I don't think one needs to multiply that figure by 24 hours. Rather, using my earlier estimates, the TerraLiner will probably consume a maximum of 70 - 100 KWh per day when glamping in climates that have a high Heat Index (100 - 120), and that will require full use of the Air-Conditioning system. So with a 300 Kw battery pack, even if there's poor solar and little wind, the TerraLiner should be able to enjoy at least 4 days of noise-free glamping before having the run the 300 KW generator for an hour to recharge the battery pack. Probably longer; probably more like a week.
egn has written that even 1 hour per 4 days is too much, and that other campers will freak out, especially the Germans who think that Air-Conditioning "ist einfach nicht zu rechtfertigen" (simply not justifiable), and should be "absolute verboten" (absolutely forbidden). But the TerraLiner will be autonomously "dry camping" mostly on farmland anyway, getting to know local people, instead of just hooking up with the same crowd of well-off First-World motorhomers. So there probably won't be any Germans anywhere in sight to complain about a generator running for just one hour every four days.....:sombrero:
Using 200 Wh/kg as a baseline figure, 1 KW then weighs 5 kg, so a 300 KW battery pack should weigh about 1500 kg. Still less than the 2000 kg that I originally guestimated for 200 KW.
Calculating further, how much volume would you very roughly guestimate that 1500 kg of such batteries might occupy, circa 2018 - 2020? Just a flat figure in cubic meters would be sufficient, and it doesn't have to be exact. It just needs to be an "educated" guess; and if anyone on the forum could make that educated guess, it would be you. I would then take that number in cubic meters and distribute the batteries where I saw fit. One of the virtues of the Tesla small-battery approach is that it allows tremendous flexibility when it comes to battery placement.
All best wishes, and again, many thanks,
Biotect
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I am.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...speculating-on-batteries-power-price-versionsMany thanks for that correction. Still, 165 Wh/kg is a much better figure than the one that I originally guessed. And it gives me a nice "design target", because I figure that by 2018 - 2020, the density might be as good as 200 Wh/kg. Remember, some designers just don't care about such things, and they will just vaguely specify "oh, and the motorhome will be a serial hybrid." Whereas I want to eventually come up with CAD drawings that seem half-realistic.
Now even 200 Wh/kg would seem to justify a 300 KW battery pack instead of a 200 KW battery pack, again the goal being maximum noise-free glamping, even in equatorial climates that have poor DNI and low wind. Most people think that maximum DNI is available at the equator, but they are wrong, because most equatorial countries are sopping wet with rain, and overcast with clouds. So too, most equatorial countries have low average wind-speeds. But it will be exactly when driving through equatorial countries that the TerraLiner will want maximum air-conditioning, so a 300 KW battery pack combined with a 300 KW generator will make the TerraLiner far less of a nuisance for other campers, or anyone within earshot.
A 100,000 BTU Air-Conditioning system would consume about 30 KWh, but because the TerraLiner will be well-insulated, I don't think one needs to multiply that figure by 24 hours. Rather, using my earlier estimates, the TerraLiner will probably consume a maximum of 70 - 100 KWh per day when glamping in climates that have a high Heat Index (100 - 120), and that will require full use of the Air-Conditioning system. So with a 300 Kw battery pack, even if there's poor solar and little wind, the TerraLiner should be able to enjoy at least 4 days of noise-free glamping before having the run the 300 KW generator for an hour to recharge the battery pack. Probably longer; probably more like a week.
egn has written that even 1 hour per 4 days is too much, and that other campers will freak out, especially the Germans who think that Air-Conditioning "ist einfach nicht zu rechtfertigen" (simply not justifiable), and should be "absolute verboten" (absolutely forbidden). But the TerraLiner will be autonomously "dry camping" mostly on farmland anyway, getting to know local people, instead of just hooking up with the same crowd of well-off First-World motorhomers. So there probably won't be any Germans anywhere in sight to complain about a generator running for just one hour every four days.....:sombrero:
Using 200 Wh/kg as a baseline figure, 1 KW then weighs 5 kg, so a 300 KW battery pack should weigh about 1500 kg. Still less than the 2000 kg that I originally guestimated for 200 KW.
Calculating further, how much volume would you very roughly guestimate that 1500 KW of such batteries might occupy, circa 2018 - 2020? Just a flat figure in cubic meters would be sufficient, and it doesn't have to be exact. It just needs to be an "educated" guess; and if anyone on the forum could make that educated guess, it would be you. I would then take that number in cubic meters and distribute the batteries where I saw fit. One of the virtues of the Tesla small-battery approach is that it allows tremendous flexibility when it comes to battery placement.
All best wishes, and again, many thanks,
Biotect
predicts that Tesla will use cells with 343 Wh/kg by 2020. That would bring the pack to about 200 Wh/kg, which validates your guess.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/11353-Dimensions-of-battery-pack says that Tesla pack has very roughly 260 Wh/l.
http://totalbatteryconsulting.com/i...ort/Extract-from-the-Tesla-battery-report.pdf says that cells in it are 630 W/l.
Sounds reasonable.
If we use the prediction from the 1st link together with the current size, we arrive at roughly 337 Wh/l. However, the author also predicts packaging to get denser. So I'd guess a total of 350-400 Wh/l.
300 kWh would take 0.75-0.85 m^3. If this volume was spread evenly below the floor, it would raise it by roughly 3-3.5 cm. I guess that if you tried to push it this flat, your packaging would get less efficient. So prepare to have 1/3 of the floor raised by 10 cm.
Don't forget that battery needs cooling. The pack dissipates heat to a coolant fluid. You still need to move it to the atmosphere.
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biotect
Designer
safas,
Many thanks for those estimates and calculations; tremendously useful. So I should be imagining a flat space somewhere that's 10 cm high, 2.3 or 2.4 m wide (or thereabouts), and 4 m long. That comes to .92 cubic meters, but no worries, I get the idea. Great news that my guess will probably pan out by 2020.
As for cooling, that's another level of engineering I haven't gotten into yet....:sombrero:
As I remarked with regard to Cab Area design above, for instance, there's only so far one can go without talking to specialists. It's best to get as many of one's ducks lined up and one's sense of the "basic moves" straight before one does. But eventually I'm going to have to start making some phone-calls.... In the meantime, I'll continue working on the "back-log" of posts; it's quite amazing how many ideas germinate simply through the process of blogging .
All best wishes,
Biotect
Many thanks for those estimates and calculations; tremendously useful. So I should be imagining a flat space somewhere that's 10 cm high, 2.3 or 2.4 m wide (or thereabouts), and 4 m long. That comes to .92 cubic meters, but no worries, I get the idea. Great news that my guess will probably pan out by 2020.
As for cooling, that's another level of engineering I haven't gotten into yet....:sombrero:
As I remarked with regard to Cab Area design above, for instance, there's only so far one can go without talking to specialists. It's best to get as many of one's ducks lined up and one's sense of the "basic moves" straight before one does. But eventually I'm going to have to start making some phone-calls.... In the meantime, I'll continue working on the "back-log" of posts; it's quite amazing how many ideas germinate simply through the process of blogging .
All best wishes,
Biotect
nick disjunkt
Adventurer
The glass in Jim's cab is bullet resistant. I didn't enquire on the level of protection as it was never of much relevance to me, but it seems to be around 15mm thick, although it is hard to tell. The glass is curved and seems to be identical in shape to the original windscreen as I cannot see any modifications to the original Mercedes aperture. I'll look for a manufacturers stamp when I get a chance but this type of truck was not made in huge numbers so it should be possibles to get a curved screen made, without it being prohibitively expensive.
The screen is made of at least two layers, as some incident before I bought the truck has cracked the outer layer of glass on the passenger side, but not the inner layer.
The screen is made of at least two layers, as some incident before I bought the truck has cracked the outer layer of glass on the passenger side, but not the inner layer.
biotect
Designer
Hi Nick,
Yes, it would have to be layered to be "bullet resistant".
************************************************
1. Bullet-Proof Glass: Energy Absorption Glass
************************************************
That's the basic principle behind bullet-proof glass: a layer (or usually multiple layers) of polycarbonate alternate with toughened ordinary glass to force the energy of the bullet to disperse laterally, slowing it down. The polycarbonate's purpose is to "contain" the shattering of the glass layers, ensuring that they shatter laterally. The more layers, the thicker the glass, and the bigger the bullets it can stop -- see http://www.explainthatstuff.com/bulletproofglass.html , http://science.howstuffworks.com/question476.htm , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_glass , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/bullet-resistant-glass-bullet-proof-glass/ , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/flat-sheet-bullet-resistant-glass-faq/ , http://www.csi-safetell.co.uk/ballistic-attack-rating-products.html , and http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/08/there-is-no-such-a-thing-as-bulletproof-glass/ . But thicker glass of course weighs more, and is more opaque. So bullet-proof glass needs to be "calibrated" to the level of the expected threat. I need to research Dupont's "Armura" package a bit more, and find out what kind of glass it installs. Because as suggested earlier, the TerraLiner's level of protection should, I think, be calibrated to what one might want in Brazil. And not, say, what one might need in Syria.....
Here are some of the better videos that I've found on the web on the topic of bulletproof and security glass. They all underline the idea that it's multi-layered, and that the purpose of the layers is to disperse energy laterally. It's "energy absorbing" glass. Note that the first video sort of gets things wrong. The layers of polycarbonate (basically, plastic) do not in themselves have the capacity to stop a bullet. Their purpose, again, is merely to force the shattering of the glass layers to disperse laterally, and this lateral dispersion of energy slows the bullet down. Enough layers and enough lateral dispersion of energy, and the bullet stops.
[video=vimeo;23516047]https://vimeo.com/23516047[/video]
And see Texas Armoring's Youtube channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbs0qzR3p_LHYvyoNsDgt2w .
I understand that curved bullet-proof glass most certainly exists, but the issue is getting a hold of it in the middle of nowhere. thjakits raised the issue quite a while ago regarding windshield breakage, and suggested very strongly (as was his habit...) that ideally the TerraLiner windshield elements should be flat, so that if they break, they can be easily replaced..... in the middle of nowhere.
************************************************
2. Curved Bullet-Proof Glass Exists, and Can be Custom-Manufactured. But Does it Resist Spidering and White-Out?
************************************************
Now thinking it through a bit further, if the windshield were bullet-reistant glass as per your Unimog, Nick, then the impact by a flying rock or debris from an irresponsible truck in front would not break it. But it probably would cause the kind of visibility-obscuring impact pattern that you can see in the videos above. So the TerraLiner would still be "drivable" (to an extent), but with impaired visibility. And a police officer might catch one out. So one would have to wait somewhere, in the middle of nowhere, until the replacement sheet of a huge front windshield arrives. The mere shipment of a windshield as large as that in the Burstner Panorama or the Panther would be a logistical nightmare in itself. That's another reason why some degree of windshield "segmentation" would be desirable. In a segmented windshield, if damage occurs, then it would be limited to a smaller segment of glass that could be more easily managed and replaced.
However, your observation that curved bullet-proof (or "resistant") glass can be easily custom-manufactured, is quite correct -- see for instance http://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/products/bullet-resistant-glass.html , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/bullet...-glass/#curved_bullet_resistant_vehicle_glass , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/curved-bullet-resistant-vehicle-glass/, and http://www.bulldogdirect.com/curved-bullet-resistant-glass-faq/ . Tyneside even offers "solar control", glazing solutions that might minimize solar gain, and/or heat loss. One advantage of having thicker bullet-proof glass may simply be thermal: it might provide better insulation against both heat loss and heat gain. Bulldog also offers to incorporate a smart-glass "switchable" layer -- see http://www.bulldogdirect.com/switchable-electric-glass/ .
Needless to say, any bullet-proof glass used for a vehicle has to be "non-spall", which means that on the inside there's no splintering. This may seem odd, but "spalling" bullet-proof glass does exist, glass which produces splinters on the inside. It exists because it's cheaper, and is often used in buildings where the amount of surface to be covered is huge, and a cheaper alternative that is still somewhat protective is desired -- see for instance http://glassolutions.co.uk/sites/default/files/documents/vetrotech_-_high_security_glass_0.pdf or http://dlubakglass.com/products/bul...ty-glass-bullet-resistant-nij-and-en-no-spall .
What then interests me in particular are the kinds of bullet-proof glass that are not only non-spalling, but also don't seem to produce much of a "shatter pattern". I understand that the shatter is necessary for energy-dispersal. But in the second-to-last video above, the glass seems to be both very bullet-resistant, and yet preserves a high degree of visibility after bullet impact. The "shatter pattern" remains quite small. I wonder why? If "limited shatter pattern" glass of this kind could be custom-manfucactured in curved segments, then the end result would be a much more aerodynamic and elegant TerraLiner Cab Area. Even if a rock or bullet hit such a curved glass segment, it would not cause a major visibility-impairing shatter pattern. So the TerraLiner could keep driving until the replacement segment arrives.
The products illustrated in the second-to-last-video are "Makrolon Hygard BR 750 and BR1000", and contain no regular glass at all -- see http://www.gat.com.au/Makrolon.html , http://www.eplastics.com/c.621686/pdf/Hygard_Brochure.pdf , http://proplastik.ee/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Makrolon-Hygard.pdf , http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/polycarbonate-br-security-makrolon.pdf , http://www.eplastics.com/c.621686/pdf/Makrolon Hygard.pdf , http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/polycarbonate-fab-guide-makrolon.pdf , http://manualzz.com/doc/7030691/makrolon®-polycarbonate-fabrication-guide , https://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/Makrolon Architectural Brochure.pdf , http://www.sheets.covestro.com/en/Products/Americas/Hygard-Laminates/Hygard-BR-1000 , http://www.sheets.covestro.com/en/Products/Americas/Hygard-Laminates/Hygard-BR-1250 , http://www.sheets.covestro.com/en/Products/Americas/Hygard-Laminates/Hygard-MS-1250 , http://www.csi-safetell.co.uk/ballistic-attack-rating-products.html , and http://www.eplastics.com/bullet-resistant-sheet .
The thinner ballistic sheets are BR750 and BR1000, while the thickest and most bullet-proof sheets seem to be BR 1250 and MS1250 -- see https://www.professionalplastics.co...content/downloads/Hygard_BR1000_Datasheet.pdf , http://corpo.polyalto.com/webdocs/570/Copie de MakolonBR1000.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/makrolon/HYGARD/BR1250/PDS006_BR1250.pdf , http://corpo.polyalto.com/webdocs/570/Copie de MakrolonBR1250.pdf , http://www.acplasticsinc.com/techsheets/MSDS_HYGARD_BR1250.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/makrolon/HYGARD/BR1250/MSD008_BUSENSH205371.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/hygardbr1250.html , http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/polycarbonate-mak-hygard-MS1250-curbell.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/makrolon/HYGARD/MS1250/PDS090_Hygard_MS1250.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/hygardms1250.html , and https://roehmschweiz.ch/produkte/platten/makrolon/hygard/ms-1250-farblos/ .
I guess the technical terms for bullet-proof glass that has a limited "shatter pattern" are "resists spidering" or "resists white-out":
************************************************
3. Can All-Plastic Bullet-Proof Windows Resist Rifle Bullets, and not just Handguns?
************************************************
Note, however, that in the second-to-last video above the only firearms tested are handguns. Handguns are not the real challenge, but rather, rifles are. Rifle bullets travel at much higher speeds, so I wonder whether this kind of glass could be created, and still prove rifle-resistant? As it turns out, the thicker sheets of Makrolon/Hygard claim exactly this capability. Here are some PDFs (I have outlined the most relevant sections in green):
************************************************
************************************************
CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
.,
Yes, it would have to be layered to be "bullet resistant".
************************************************
1. Bullet-Proof Glass: Energy Absorption Glass
************************************************
That's the basic principle behind bullet-proof glass: a layer (or usually multiple layers) of polycarbonate alternate with toughened ordinary glass to force the energy of the bullet to disperse laterally, slowing it down. The polycarbonate's purpose is to "contain" the shattering of the glass layers, ensuring that they shatter laterally. The more layers, the thicker the glass, and the bigger the bullets it can stop -- see http://www.explainthatstuff.com/bulletproofglass.html , http://science.howstuffworks.com/question476.htm , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_glass , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/bullet-resistant-glass-bullet-proof-glass/ , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/flat-sheet-bullet-resistant-glass-faq/ , http://www.csi-safetell.co.uk/ballistic-attack-rating-products.html , and http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/08/there-is-no-such-a-thing-as-bulletproof-glass/ . But thicker glass of course weighs more, and is more opaque. So bullet-proof glass needs to be "calibrated" to the level of the expected threat. I need to research Dupont's "Armura" package a bit more, and find out what kind of glass it installs. Because as suggested earlier, the TerraLiner's level of protection should, I think, be calibrated to what one might want in Brazil. And not, say, what one might need in Syria.....
Here are some of the better videos that I've found on the web on the topic of bulletproof and security glass. They all underline the idea that it's multi-layered, and that the purpose of the layers is to disperse energy laterally. It's "energy absorbing" glass. Note that the first video sort of gets things wrong. The layers of polycarbonate (basically, plastic) do not in themselves have the capacity to stop a bullet. Their purpose, again, is merely to force the shattering of the glass layers to disperse laterally, and this lateral dispersion of energy slows the bullet down. Enough layers and enough lateral dispersion of energy, and the bullet stops.
[video=vimeo;23516047]https://vimeo.com/23516047[/video]
And see Texas Armoring's Youtube channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbs0qzR3p_LHYvyoNsDgt2w .
I understand that curved bullet-proof glass most certainly exists, but the issue is getting a hold of it in the middle of nowhere. thjakits raised the issue quite a while ago regarding windshield breakage, and suggested very strongly (as was his habit...) that ideally the TerraLiner windshield elements should be flat, so that if they break, they can be easily replaced..... in the middle of nowhere.
************************************************
2. Curved Bullet-Proof Glass Exists, and Can be Custom-Manufactured. But Does it Resist Spidering and White-Out?
************************************************
Now thinking it through a bit further, if the windshield were bullet-reistant glass as per your Unimog, Nick, then the impact by a flying rock or debris from an irresponsible truck in front would not break it. But it probably would cause the kind of visibility-obscuring impact pattern that you can see in the videos above. So the TerraLiner would still be "drivable" (to an extent), but with impaired visibility. And a police officer might catch one out. So one would have to wait somewhere, in the middle of nowhere, until the replacement sheet of a huge front windshield arrives. The mere shipment of a windshield as large as that in the Burstner Panorama or the Panther would be a logistical nightmare in itself. That's another reason why some degree of windshield "segmentation" would be desirable. In a segmented windshield, if damage occurs, then it would be limited to a smaller segment of glass that could be more easily managed and replaced.
However, your observation that curved bullet-proof (or "resistant") glass can be easily custom-manufactured, is quite correct -- see for instance http://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/products/bullet-resistant-glass.html , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/bullet...-glass/#curved_bullet_resistant_vehicle_glass , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/curved-bullet-resistant-vehicle-glass/, and http://www.bulldogdirect.com/curved-bullet-resistant-glass-faq/ . Tyneside even offers "solar control", glazing solutions that might minimize solar gain, and/or heat loss. One advantage of having thicker bullet-proof glass may simply be thermal: it might provide better insulation against both heat loss and heat gain. Bulldog also offers to incorporate a smart-glass "switchable" layer -- see http://www.bulldogdirect.com/switchable-electric-glass/ .
Needless to say, any bullet-proof glass used for a vehicle has to be "non-spall", which means that on the inside there's no splintering. This may seem odd, but "spalling" bullet-proof glass does exist, glass which produces splinters on the inside. It exists because it's cheaper, and is often used in buildings where the amount of surface to be covered is huge, and a cheaper alternative that is still somewhat protective is desired -- see for instance http://glassolutions.co.uk/sites/default/files/documents/vetrotech_-_high_security_glass_0.pdf or http://dlubakglass.com/products/bul...ty-glass-bullet-resistant-nij-and-en-no-spall .
What then interests me in particular are the kinds of bullet-proof glass that are not only non-spalling, but also don't seem to produce much of a "shatter pattern". I understand that the shatter is necessary for energy-dispersal. But in the second-to-last video above, the glass seems to be both very bullet-resistant, and yet preserves a high degree of visibility after bullet impact. The "shatter pattern" remains quite small. I wonder why? If "limited shatter pattern" glass of this kind could be custom-manfucactured in curved segments, then the end result would be a much more aerodynamic and elegant TerraLiner Cab Area. Even if a rock or bullet hit such a curved glass segment, it would not cause a major visibility-impairing shatter pattern. So the TerraLiner could keep driving until the replacement segment arrives.
The products illustrated in the second-to-last-video are "Makrolon Hygard BR 750 and BR1000", and contain no regular glass at all -- see http://www.gat.com.au/Makrolon.html , http://www.eplastics.com/c.621686/pdf/Hygard_Brochure.pdf , http://proplastik.ee/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Makrolon-Hygard.pdf , http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/polycarbonate-br-security-makrolon.pdf , http://www.eplastics.com/c.621686/pdf/Makrolon Hygard.pdf , http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/polycarbonate-fab-guide-makrolon.pdf , http://manualzz.com/doc/7030691/makrolon®-polycarbonate-fabrication-guide , https://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/Makrolon Architectural Brochure.pdf , http://www.sheets.covestro.com/en/Products/Americas/Hygard-Laminates/Hygard-BR-1000 , http://www.sheets.covestro.com/en/Products/Americas/Hygard-Laminates/Hygard-BR-1250 , http://www.sheets.covestro.com/en/Products/Americas/Hygard-Laminates/Hygard-MS-1250 , http://www.csi-safetell.co.uk/ballistic-attack-rating-products.html , and http://www.eplastics.com/bullet-resistant-sheet .
The thinner ballistic sheets are BR750 and BR1000, while the thickest and most bullet-proof sheets seem to be BR 1250 and MS1250 -- see https://www.professionalplastics.co...content/downloads/Hygard_BR1000_Datasheet.pdf , http://corpo.polyalto.com/webdocs/570/Copie de MakolonBR1000.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/makrolon/HYGARD/BR1250/PDS006_BR1250.pdf , http://corpo.polyalto.com/webdocs/570/Copie de MakrolonBR1250.pdf , http://www.acplasticsinc.com/techsheets/MSDS_HYGARD_BR1250.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/makrolon/HYGARD/BR1250/MSD008_BUSENSH205371.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/hygardbr1250.html , http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/polycarbonate-mak-hygard-MS1250-curbell.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/makrolon/HYGARD/MS1250/PDS090_Hygard_MS1250.pdf , http://www.sdplastics.com/hygardms1250.html , and https://roehmschweiz.ch/produkte/platten/makrolon/hygard/ms-1250-farblos/ .
I guess the technical terms for bullet-proof glass that has a limited "shatter pattern" are "resists spidering" or "resists white-out":
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3. Can All-Plastic Bullet-Proof Windows Resist Rifle Bullets, and not just Handguns?
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Note, however, that in the second-to-last video above the only firearms tested are handguns. Handguns are not the real challenge, but rather, rifles are. Rifle bullets travel at much higher speeds, so I wonder whether this kind of glass could be created, and still prove rifle-resistant? As it turns out, the thicker sheets of Makrolon/Hygard claim exactly this capability. Here are some PDFs (I have outlined the most relevant sections in green):
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biotect
Designer
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In short, the answer to the question posed by this section seems to be "yes, sort of". Makrolon/Hygard MS-1250 does seem resistant to a wide variety of rifles, including a 9 mm UZI, and is UL level 6 -- see http://www.eplastics.com/bullet-resistant-sheet :
Makrolon/Hygard MS-1250 is not that thick, just 1.275 inches, or roughly 3.3 cm. That's not very thick in the world of bullet-proof glass. So what does UL-6 actually mean?
Well, it means that this kind of bullet-proof glass can withstand one hit from a larger, .308 caliber rifle (that's UL level 5), but it can't withstand multiple hits from a .308 (that's UL level 8) -- see http://www.tssbulletproof.com/bulle...tant-barriers/bullet-proof-protection-levels/ , http://www.usbulletproofing.com/Ratings.htm , http://www.nationwidestructures.com/ballistic-key.html , http://armatinc.com/ballistic-standards/ul-752-standards-chart/ , http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=752 , and http://www.thefirearms.guide/ammo/what-is-caliber. .22 is the most common rifle caliber, after which I'd say the Winchester range of calibers are the most popular, i.e. .243, .270, .308, and .300 Magnum. In hunting, these will take one progressively from dear and hogs up to moose, bear, and other big game at long range. The .556 is a NATO round used by militaries around the world, and in its hunting version it's still a .223, but packs much more power, so for small-to-medium-sized game. As such, the .556 caliber rates UL Level 7. See http://gunnoob.com/RifleShotgunGuides/RifleBulletCartridgeGuide.aspx , http://www.survivopedia.com/top-ammo-for-survival-guns/# , http://www.chuckhawks.com/12_rifle_cartridges.htm , http://www.thedailysheeple.com/can-you-guess-which-firearm-calibers-are-the-most-popular_052015 , http://www.positiveshooting.com/calibres.html , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber , and http://www.thefirearms.guide/wp-content/uploads/common-calibers.pdf .
Looking at the following comparative chart of caliber diameters on the far left, you would think that some of the larger hand-gun calibers would be more dangerous than the rifle calibers. But a .50 caliber round shot from a sniper rifle is a UL Level 10 threat, because of its incredible velocity, whereas a .44 magnum handgun caliber is only a Level 4 threat -- see http://www.thefirearms.guide/ammo/what-is-caliber :
I'd say that it would be especially important that the TerraLiner's windows be able to wind-stand the impact of a Winchester .308 bullet, because it's one of the most widely used calibers around the world, by both militaries and big-game hunters. In NATO issue the .308 is slightly different, and is called the 7.62x51 mm caliber. Once again, UL Level 5 bullet-proof glass can withstand one hit from this caliber -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×51mm_NATO and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester . But one has to move up to UL Level 8 bullet-proof glass to withstand multiple hits.
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4. Should the TerraLiner be able to withstand multiple hits from an AK-47 during a car-jacking?
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This raises the question whether the TerraLiner's windshield should be able to withstand multiple attacks from the roughly equivalent 7.62X39 round used in Russian AK-47's -- see http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2007/09/03/308-winchester-vs-762x51-nato/ . As the two images posted below suggest, the round used in an AK-47 is quite a bit shorter than a Winchester .308 (both indicated with green annotation):
Although not clearly indicated on the UL Level charts above, I would guess that multiple hits from an AK-47 round would be a UL Level 8 threat, and at least one website confirms as much -- see and http://www.tssbulletproof.com/bullet-proof-glass-rating-system-explained/ . The website just referenced does a very good job explaining the somewhat "arbitrary" and occasionally counter-intuitive nature of the UL rating system. But it does agree that it's not really long-barrelled high-caliber hunting rifles that a car or 7-11 store is likely to encounter, but rather, an UZI, an M16, or an AK-47.
If I had to predict the kind of rifle that the TerraLiner would be likeliest to encounter in an attempted car-jacking in South America, Africa, or Asia, it would be the AK-47.
The problem is that when communism collapsed in Russia, AK-47's flooded the world market, and not only killed lots of people in Africa, but their mere ubiquitous presence was the fuel that fed lots of conflicts that could otherwise have been avoided. The AK-47 ls a gun that can be used by idiots and children, because it never jams, does not require finicky maintenance, it's cheap and easy to use, and it's widely available -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47 . In the video above produced by Texas Armoring, they shoot a Mercedes multiple times (I counted 12) with an AK-47. So I would guess that the bullet-proof glass installed in the Mercedes is UL Level 8, at a minimum. And they probably used an AK-47 for precisely the reason that I just gave: because they wanted to stage "the most realistic" car-jacking scenario. But notice how the Mercedes windshield experiences plenty of white-out in the course of the shooting, and the Mercedes could not be driven afterwards, at least from a visibility point of view.
Is UL Level 8 actually necessary? Again, I would be curious to know what the Brazilian middle class has installed in their cars.
I then wonder how Makrolon/Hygard MS-1250 all-plastic bulletproof glass might compare to the window-elements in Dupont's Armura. We know that MS-1250 is UL Level 6 Ballistic grade, and it's possible that Armura windowing is as well. But Armura windowing is probably a less technically advanced (and no doubt cheaper) polycarbonate/tempered glass sandwich, of the kind that produces massive spidering and white-out when shot. For a member of the Brazilian middle class caught in a traffic jam, and subject to an attack by a carjacker, massive white-out isn't much of a problem. They will simply be glad that they survived the attack, and will then have their car towed to the nearest "Armura" installer, to have the window replaced. Whereas if the TerraLiner is in the middle of nowhere and one of its windshield segments gets hit with a rock, a rock that produces massive white-out, it will face a visibility problem. So that's why finding an all-plastic, bullet-proof windowing solution is so important. Even if it is thicker and more expensive than the glass/polycarbonate laminate that Armura probably uses, if the ballistic properties of MS-1250 are as good or better than Armura, and if MS-1250 can be shaped into curves, then problem solved.
Personally, if the weight were not too heavy, and it still provided enough transparency, I would prefer UL Level 8 all-plastic bullet-proof windows. That way the TerraLiner could withstand an attempted car-jacking even by some trigger-happy kid wielding an AK-47, shooting the TerraLiner's windows multiple times. And later on, once safely at a distance, the TerraLiner could keep driving, because the all-plastic bulletproof windows would still provide good visibility. So the TerraLiner could happily wait a few months until the replacement windows arrived from the United States or Europe. Driving another 1000 km would not be a problem because of an attempted carjacking, because there would be only minimal white-out.
Furthermore, it does seem like specialists exist who are willing to fabricate "all plastic" bulletproof glass to be custom-fitted to vehicles -- see http://www.bulldogdirect.com/bullet...ss/#bullguard_bullet_resistant_clear_plastics , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/bullguard-bullet-resistant-clear-plastics/ , wmf http://www.associatedplastics.com/security_glazing.php . But in the second reference from Bulldogdirect, it's clear that this company's all-plastic products are designed to protect only against hand-guns. Given that better Makralon/Hygard products like MS-1250 do exist, I wonder if a provider like Bulldogdirect would be willing to create and install a curved MS-1250 windshield and windows, the kind that can withstand attack by some rifles, including a 9 mm UZI?
In addition, it's worth noting that Texas Armoring presumably preps some of its vehicles to resist assassination attempts, and typically an assassin will use a large-caliber sniper rifle, with a .50 caliber bullet:
Whereas one should not expect that the TerraLiner will be subject to assassination attempts using such high-caliber rifles and bullets. :ylsmoke:
Another company explicitly advertises that it is the only firm that can provide 8 cm thick bullet-proof glass to protect against a .50 mm round from a Browning machine gun or sniper rifle -- see http://www.isbi.us/levels.htm . For the TerraLiner, this seems entirely unnecessary. But it does bear repeating that Brazilian car-jackers do now employ rifles, and I wonder how many of them are now wielding AK-47's?
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5. Why Biotect Knows so much about Guns
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Here is an ugly little Biotect secret: when growing up, his father imported "sporting goods" from all over the world, which was a euphemism for importing firearms. So Biotect grew up not only catching and filleting lots of fish, he also grew up killing lots of deer, and a few big-horn sheep out in British Columbia using high-caliber rifles. Biotect also developed sniper-level capability practicing at a farm in northern Ontario. Biotect and his brother were given a pair of Walther 2000 sniper rifles as a birthday present when Biotect was 15, and his brother was 12 -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_WA_2000 , http://www.snipercentral.com/walther-wa2000/ , http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/de/walther-wa-2000-e.html , and http://www.carlwalther.com/wa2000.htm .
For better or worse, Biotect is also intimately familiar with the full range of Berettas, from the 9 mm standard NATO-issue pistol, to the SO-5, the preferred shotgun for Olympic competitions -- see http://www.beretta.com/en-us/so5/ andhttp://www.shooting.by/im/results/The_Top_20_of_the_Worlds_Greatest_Competitive_Shotgunners.pdf . When Biotect was 14, Dad thought it important to take Biotect on a tour of various gun-manufacturers that he had business relations with in Europe, including Beretta, located in Gardone Val Trompia near Brescia. Biotect and Dad got a personalized guided tour of the Beretta private collection, which includes a gold-plated submachine gun. About 20 of them were made for the personal bodyguard of some Saudi Prince back in the 1970s.
Biotect was also very fond of his Vostok TOZ-35 specialized target pistol; Dad had the monopoly importing Russian firearms, until communism collapsed.
But when Biotect was 19 he had a "Near Death Experience" because of a car accident. Flatlined in a hospital, experienced ego-annhilation in the Great White Light, and after waking up from a coma, vowed to never touch a gun again. Biotect's brother took over the family business, and continues to hunt and fish to this day. Whereas Biotect tries to stay vegetarian (but it's not easy for him, because he still loves meat), and he has become a Buddhist. Biotect's brother in many ways resembles the happy-go-lucky firearms enthusiast depicted by an American actor in the videos above (the actor is not really Russian), and Biotect's brother shoots and hunts with a big smile on his face, and joy in his heart. Whereas Biotect unfortunately no longer can, and has developed a somewhat "tortured" relationship to firearms, because he still loves how they look. He's an industrial designer, after all....
So when we begin talking about guns, Biotect knows whereof he speaks....:sombrero:
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6. Many Thanks, Nick: A Curved (but still segmented) TerraLiner Panoramic Windshield may be Possible After All..:sunny:
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In short, many thanks for your post, Nick, and many thanks for making me think a bit further about the Cab Area windowing. If the kind of all-plastic bullet-proof glass that I just described exists (Makrolon/Hygard MS-1250?), and could be custom-manufactured into curved sections, and if it could provide at least a "Brazilian" level of protection, then there would be no need for flat panel segments after all.....
Problem solved, and a far more elegant TerraLiner would be the result.
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7. A Somewhat Self-Indulgent Gun-Tour Down Memory Lane
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What the hell, I haven’t touched a gun in over a decade, so I’m going to indulge myself here with a bit of gun-porn. It’s an itch that that I cannot scratch except virtually, and I figure a bit of virtual scratching might also increase my cred with some of the more “militareseque” types here on Expo.
I am now a Buddhist, and I am a designer, so some thread participants might have the mistaken impression that I’m some kind of pacifist artsy-farsty Euro-******. That's partly true: I am a pacifist, I do have a European passport, and I am an artsy-fartsy. But I am not homosexual, although I have lots of friends in the design world who are. And if I were personally asked by the Dalai Lama to assassinate someone a kilometer away using a high-caliber sniper rifle for some good Buddhist reason, perhaps I could do it. I don’t really know anymore, because I am so out of practice. But my brother certainly could do it, and more than 15 years ago I could have done it.
Those who understand gun-lust, will know just how hard it is to get out of one's system. So here it goes: some virtual scratching and lots and lots of beautiful gun porn.
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8. Beretta
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Berettas are the Mercedes of shotguns, the most expensive being the “SO” series of over-and-unders – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta , http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabbrica_d'Armi_Pietro_Beretta , http://www.beretta.com/en/ , http://www.beretta.com/it-it/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/premium-world/finder/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/so10-eell/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/so10-eell/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/so6-eell/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/sso6-eell/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/so6-eell-izumi/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/so-sparviere/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/giubileo/ , https://www.youtube.com/user/BerettaVideos , and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCyOn4_t4AqVmPb1TbHqo :
[video=youtube;q6b932J6oJk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6b932J6oJk&index=24&list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCy On4_t4AqVmPb1TbHqo[/video] [video=youtube;7TbXPbaWWVs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TbXPbaWWVs&list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCyOn4_t4AqV mPb1TbHqo&index=20[/video]
[video=youtube;UCBZrUIFKG8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCBZrUIFKG8&index=17&list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCy On4_t4AqVmPb1TbHqo[/video]
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CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
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CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST
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In short, the answer to the question posed by this section seems to be "yes, sort of". Makrolon/Hygard MS-1250 does seem resistant to a wide variety of rifles, including a 9 mm UZI, and is UL level 6 -- see http://www.eplastics.com/bullet-resistant-sheet :
Makrolon/Hygard MS-1250 is not that thick, just 1.275 inches, or roughly 3.3 cm. That's not very thick in the world of bullet-proof glass. So what does UL-6 actually mean?
Well, it means that this kind of bullet-proof glass can withstand one hit from a larger, .308 caliber rifle (that's UL level 5), but it can't withstand multiple hits from a .308 (that's UL level 8) -- see http://www.tssbulletproof.com/bulle...tant-barriers/bullet-proof-protection-levels/ , http://www.usbulletproofing.com/Ratings.htm , http://www.nationwidestructures.com/ballistic-key.html , http://armatinc.com/ballistic-standards/ul-752-standards-chart/ , http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=752 , and http://www.thefirearms.guide/ammo/what-is-caliber. .22 is the most common rifle caliber, after which I'd say the Winchester range of calibers are the most popular, i.e. .243, .270, .308, and .300 Magnum. In hunting, these will take one progressively from dear and hogs up to moose, bear, and other big game at long range. The .556 is a NATO round used by militaries around the world, and in its hunting version it's still a .223, but packs much more power, so for small-to-medium-sized game. As such, the .556 caliber rates UL Level 7. See http://gunnoob.com/RifleShotgunGuides/RifleBulletCartridgeGuide.aspx , http://www.survivopedia.com/top-ammo-for-survival-guns/# , http://www.chuckhawks.com/12_rifle_cartridges.htm , http://www.thedailysheeple.com/can-you-guess-which-firearm-calibers-are-the-most-popular_052015 , http://www.positiveshooting.com/calibres.html , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber , and http://www.thefirearms.guide/wp-content/uploads/common-calibers.pdf .
Looking at the following comparative chart of caliber diameters on the far left, you would think that some of the larger hand-gun calibers would be more dangerous than the rifle calibers. But a .50 caliber round shot from a sniper rifle is a UL Level 10 threat, because of its incredible velocity, whereas a .44 magnum handgun caliber is only a Level 4 threat -- see http://www.thefirearms.guide/ammo/what-is-caliber :
I'd say that it would be especially important that the TerraLiner's windows be able to wind-stand the impact of a Winchester .308 bullet, because it's one of the most widely used calibers around the world, by both militaries and big-game hunters. In NATO issue the .308 is slightly different, and is called the 7.62x51 mm caliber. Once again, UL Level 5 bullet-proof glass can withstand one hit from this caliber -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×51mm_NATO and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester . But one has to move up to UL Level 8 bullet-proof glass to withstand multiple hits.
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4. Should the TerraLiner be able to withstand multiple hits from an AK-47 during a car-jacking?
************************************************
This raises the question whether the TerraLiner's windshield should be able to withstand multiple attacks from the roughly equivalent 7.62X39 round used in Russian AK-47's -- see http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2007/09/03/308-winchester-vs-762x51-nato/ . As the two images posted below suggest, the round used in an AK-47 is quite a bit shorter than a Winchester .308 (both indicated with green annotation):
Although not clearly indicated on the UL Level charts above, I would guess that multiple hits from an AK-47 round would be a UL Level 8 threat, and at least one website confirms as much -- see and http://www.tssbulletproof.com/bullet-proof-glass-rating-system-explained/ . The website just referenced does a very good job explaining the somewhat "arbitrary" and occasionally counter-intuitive nature of the UL rating system. But it does agree that it's not really long-barrelled high-caliber hunting rifles that a car or 7-11 store is likely to encounter, but rather, an UZI, an M16, or an AK-47.
If I had to predict the kind of rifle that the TerraLiner would be likeliest to encounter in an attempted car-jacking in South America, Africa, or Asia, it would be the AK-47.
The problem is that when communism collapsed in Russia, AK-47's flooded the world market, and not only killed lots of people in Africa, but their mere ubiquitous presence was the fuel that fed lots of conflicts that could otherwise have been avoided. The AK-47 ls a gun that can be used by idiots and children, because it never jams, does not require finicky maintenance, it's cheap and easy to use, and it's widely available -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47 . In the video above produced by Texas Armoring, they shoot a Mercedes multiple times (I counted 12) with an AK-47. So I would guess that the bullet-proof glass installed in the Mercedes is UL Level 8, at a minimum. And they probably used an AK-47 for precisely the reason that I just gave: because they wanted to stage "the most realistic" car-jacking scenario. But notice how the Mercedes windshield experiences plenty of white-out in the course of the shooting, and the Mercedes could not be driven afterwards, at least from a visibility point of view.
Is UL Level 8 actually necessary? Again, I would be curious to know what the Brazilian middle class has installed in their cars.
I then wonder how Makrolon/Hygard MS-1250 all-plastic bulletproof glass might compare to the window-elements in Dupont's Armura. We know that MS-1250 is UL Level 6 Ballistic grade, and it's possible that Armura windowing is as well. But Armura windowing is probably a less technically advanced (and no doubt cheaper) polycarbonate/tempered glass sandwich, of the kind that produces massive spidering and white-out when shot. For a member of the Brazilian middle class caught in a traffic jam, and subject to an attack by a carjacker, massive white-out isn't much of a problem. They will simply be glad that they survived the attack, and will then have their car towed to the nearest "Armura" installer, to have the window replaced. Whereas if the TerraLiner is in the middle of nowhere and one of its windshield segments gets hit with a rock, a rock that produces massive white-out, it will face a visibility problem. So that's why finding an all-plastic, bullet-proof windowing solution is so important. Even if it is thicker and more expensive than the glass/polycarbonate laminate that Armura probably uses, if the ballistic properties of MS-1250 are as good or better than Armura, and if MS-1250 can be shaped into curves, then problem solved.
Personally, if the weight were not too heavy, and it still provided enough transparency, I would prefer UL Level 8 all-plastic bullet-proof windows. That way the TerraLiner could withstand an attempted car-jacking even by some trigger-happy kid wielding an AK-47, shooting the TerraLiner's windows multiple times. And later on, once safely at a distance, the TerraLiner could keep driving, because the all-plastic bulletproof windows would still provide good visibility. So the TerraLiner could happily wait a few months until the replacement windows arrived from the United States or Europe. Driving another 1000 km would not be a problem because of an attempted carjacking, because there would be only minimal white-out.
Furthermore, it does seem like specialists exist who are willing to fabricate "all plastic" bulletproof glass to be custom-fitted to vehicles -- see http://www.bulldogdirect.com/bullet...ss/#bullguard_bullet_resistant_clear_plastics , http://www.bulldogdirect.com/bullguard-bullet-resistant-clear-plastics/ , wmf http://www.associatedplastics.com/security_glazing.php . But in the second reference from Bulldogdirect, it's clear that this company's all-plastic products are designed to protect only against hand-guns. Given that better Makralon/Hygard products like MS-1250 do exist, I wonder if a provider like Bulldogdirect would be willing to create and install a curved MS-1250 windshield and windows, the kind that can withstand attack by some rifles, including a 9 mm UZI?
In addition, it's worth noting that Texas Armoring presumably preps some of its vehicles to resist assassination attempts, and typically an assassin will use a large-caliber sniper rifle, with a .50 caliber bullet:
Whereas one should not expect that the TerraLiner will be subject to assassination attempts using such high-caliber rifles and bullets. :ylsmoke:
Another company explicitly advertises that it is the only firm that can provide 8 cm thick bullet-proof glass to protect against a .50 mm round from a Browning machine gun or sniper rifle -- see http://www.isbi.us/levels.htm . For the TerraLiner, this seems entirely unnecessary. But it does bear repeating that Brazilian car-jackers do now employ rifles, and I wonder how many of them are now wielding AK-47's?
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5. Why Biotect Knows so much about Guns
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Here is an ugly little Biotect secret: when growing up, his father imported "sporting goods" from all over the world, which was a euphemism for importing firearms. So Biotect grew up not only catching and filleting lots of fish, he also grew up killing lots of deer, and a few big-horn sheep out in British Columbia using high-caliber rifles. Biotect also developed sniper-level capability practicing at a farm in northern Ontario. Biotect and his brother were given a pair of Walther 2000 sniper rifles as a birthday present when Biotect was 15, and his brother was 12 -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_WA_2000 , http://www.snipercentral.com/walther-wa2000/ , http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/de/walther-wa-2000-e.html , and http://www.carlwalther.com/wa2000.htm .
For better or worse, Biotect is also intimately familiar with the full range of Berettas, from the 9 mm standard NATO-issue pistol, to the SO-5, the preferred shotgun for Olympic competitions -- see http://www.beretta.com/en-us/so5/ andhttp://www.shooting.by/im/results/The_Top_20_of_the_Worlds_Greatest_Competitive_Shotgunners.pdf . When Biotect was 14, Dad thought it important to take Biotect on a tour of various gun-manufacturers that he had business relations with in Europe, including Beretta, located in Gardone Val Trompia near Brescia. Biotect and Dad got a personalized guided tour of the Beretta private collection, which includes a gold-plated submachine gun. About 20 of them were made for the personal bodyguard of some Saudi Prince back in the 1970s.
Biotect was also very fond of his Vostok TOZ-35 specialized target pistol; Dad had the monopoly importing Russian firearms, until communism collapsed.
But when Biotect was 19 he had a "Near Death Experience" because of a car accident. Flatlined in a hospital, experienced ego-annhilation in the Great White Light, and after waking up from a coma, vowed to never touch a gun again. Biotect's brother took over the family business, and continues to hunt and fish to this day. Whereas Biotect tries to stay vegetarian (but it's not easy for him, because he still loves meat), and he has become a Buddhist. Biotect's brother in many ways resembles the happy-go-lucky firearms enthusiast depicted by an American actor in the videos above (the actor is not really Russian), and Biotect's brother shoots and hunts with a big smile on his face, and joy in his heart. Whereas Biotect unfortunately no longer can, and has developed a somewhat "tortured" relationship to firearms, because he still loves how they look. He's an industrial designer, after all....
So when we begin talking about guns, Biotect knows whereof he speaks....:sombrero:
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6. Many Thanks, Nick: A Curved (but still segmented) TerraLiner Panoramic Windshield may be Possible After All..:sunny:
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In short, many thanks for your post, Nick, and many thanks for making me think a bit further about the Cab Area windowing. If the kind of all-plastic bullet-proof glass that I just described exists (Makrolon/Hygard MS-1250?), and could be custom-manufactured into curved sections, and if it could provide at least a "Brazilian" level of protection, then there would be no need for flat panel segments after all.....
Problem solved, and a far more elegant TerraLiner would be the result.
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7. A Somewhat Self-Indulgent Gun-Tour Down Memory Lane
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What the hell, I haven’t touched a gun in over a decade, so I’m going to indulge myself here with a bit of gun-porn. It’s an itch that that I cannot scratch except virtually, and I figure a bit of virtual scratching might also increase my cred with some of the more “militareseque” types here on Expo.
I am now a Buddhist, and I am a designer, so some thread participants might have the mistaken impression that I’m some kind of pacifist artsy-farsty Euro-******. That's partly true: I am a pacifist, I do have a European passport, and I am an artsy-fartsy. But I am not homosexual, although I have lots of friends in the design world who are. And if I were personally asked by the Dalai Lama to assassinate someone a kilometer away using a high-caliber sniper rifle for some good Buddhist reason, perhaps I could do it. I don’t really know anymore, because I am so out of practice. But my brother certainly could do it, and more than 15 years ago I could have done it.
Those who understand gun-lust, will know just how hard it is to get out of one's system. So here it goes: some virtual scratching and lots and lots of beautiful gun porn.
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8. Beretta
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Berettas are the Mercedes of shotguns, the most expensive being the “SO” series of over-and-unders – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta , http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabbrica_d'Armi_Pietro_Beretta , http://www.beretta.com/en/ , http://www.beretta.com/it-it/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/premium-world/finder/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/so10-eell/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/so10-eell/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/so6-eell/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/sso6-eell/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/so6-eell-izumi/ , http://www.beretta.com/en/so-sparviere/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/giubileo/ , https://www.youtube.com/user/BerettaVideos , and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCyOn4_t4AqVmPb1TbHqo :
[video=youtube;q6b932J6oJk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6b932J6oJk&index=24&list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCy On4_t4AqVmPb1TbHqo[/video] [video=youtube;7TbXPbaWWVs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TbXPbaWWVs&list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCyOn4_t4AqV mPb1TbHqo&index=20[/video]
[video=youtube;UCBZrUIFKG8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCBZrUIFKG8&index=17&list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCy On4_t4AqVmPb1TbHqo[/video]
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But personally, I always preferred the more "classic" (or 19th century?) appearance of Beretta's side-by-sides – see http://www.beretta.com/en-us/486-parallelo/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/diana/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/imperiale-montecarlo/ , and http://www.beretta.com/it-it/486-by-marc-newson-doppietta/ :
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But personally, I always preferred the more "classic" (or 19th century?) appearance of Beretta's side-by-sides – see http://www.beretta.com/en-us/486-parallelo/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/diana/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/imperiale-montecarlo/ , and http://www.beretta.com/it-it/486-by-marc-newson-doppietta/ :
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I never owned a side-by-side myself, however; mine was an SO-5 over-and-under -- see http://www.beretta.com/en/so5/ :
The second image shows an SO-5 with an uncarved stock. It comes that way so that the stock can then be custom-shaped to suit the shooter.
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I never owned a side-by-side myself, however; mine was an SO-5 over-and-under -- see http://www.beretta.com/en/so5/ :
The second image shows an SO-5 with an uncarved stock. It comes that way so that the stock can then be custom-shaped to suit the shooter.
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Once again, Beretta SO-5 over-and-unders have traditionally dominated Olympic competitions, although gold-medalist Vincent Hancock uses a Beretta DT11 – see http://www.beretta.com/en-us/shotguns/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/firearms/finder/#a=ClayShooting&mpp=24 , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/so5/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/dt11/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/about/team-beretta/ , and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGlEQw0qtRRa49PwHBVL02spyrvss4Q0P , and http://www.berettausa.com/assets/39/29/Competition_BORE.pdf :
[video=youtube;GXpvsmc0V9I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXpvsmc0V9I&list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCyOn4_t4AqV mPb1TbHqo&index=19[/video] [video=vimeo;61586151]https://vimeo.com/61586151[/video]
Most of the pieces in my father's gun collection are side-by-sides of various makes, e.g. Purdey, Holland & Holland, less-well-known Italian and German makes like Perazzi, Piotti Fratelli, Krieghoff, etc.. They are "classic" or "traditional" shotguns, with lots of fancy engraving and inlay work. Which makes them a wonder to behold, and achingly beautiful. There are also some over-and-under large-caliber rifles, of the kind traditionally used to hunt elephant and rhino. The second rifle barrel is just in case the first shot did not stop the stampeding elephant or rhino that's just about to crush you.....:sombrero:
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Once again, Beretta SO-5 over-and-unders have traditionally dominated Olympic competitions, although gold-medalist Vincent Hancock uses a Beretta DT11 – see http://www.beretta.com/en-us/shotguns/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/firearms/finder/#a=ClayShooting&mpp=24 , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/so5/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/dt11/ , http://www.beretta.com/en-us/about/team-beretta/ , and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGlEQw0qtRRa49PwHBVL02spyrvss4Q0P , and http://www.berettausa.com/assets/39/29/Competition_BORE.pdf :
[video=youtube;GXpvsmc0V9I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXpvsmc0V9I&list=PLGlEQw0qtRRYQCyOn4_t4AqV mPb1TbHqo&index=19[/video] [video=vimeo;61586151]https://vimeo.com/61586151[/video]
Most of the pieces in my father's gun collection are side-by-sides of various makes, e.g. Purdey, Holland & Holland, less-well-known Italian and German makes like Perazzi, Piotti Fratelli, Krieghoff, etc.. They are "classic" or "traditional" shotguns, with lots of fancy engraving and inlay work. Which makes them a wonder to behold, and achingly beautiful. There are also some over-and-under large-caliber rifles, of the kind traditionally used to hunt elephant and rhino. The second rifle barrel is just in case the first shot did not stop the stampeding elephant or rhino that's just about to crush you.....:sombrero:
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9. The Vostok TOZ-35
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As for free pistols, some swear by the Hammerli (now Walther), and no doubt the Vostok TOZ-35 is no longer considered top-of-the-line -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_meter_pistol , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hämmerli , http://www.carl-walther.de/cw.php?lang=en&content=products&sub=1&subsub=13&product=666 :
But back in the 1980’s the TOZ-35 dominated competitions, and I still had plenty of fun with it in the 1990's -- see http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.it/2007/12/toz-35-range-report.html ,http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271504 , http://www.gunauction.com/buy/9460696 , http://www.pilkguns.com/c17.shtml ; http://www.icollector.com/Hammerli-...Martini-Action-Free-Pistol-with-Box_i10495026 , http://www.frontierarms.com.au/products/handguns/hammerli-fp60-free-pistol.html , http://www.icollector.com/Hammerli-...Martini-Action-Free-Pistol-with-Box_i10495026 , http://www.haemmerli.info/en/home.html , and http://www.haemmerli.info/public/downloads/manuals/2793113_Haemmerli_24Seiter_web.pdf . In the second video, skip ahead about 7 minutes for a very thorough description of Left-Handed version of the TOZ-35, including box:
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9. The Vostok TOZ-35
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As for free pistols, some swear by the Hammerli (now Walther), and no doubt the Vostok TOZ-35 is no longer considered top-of-the-line -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_meter_pistol , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hämmerli , http://www.carl-walther.de/cw.php?lang=en&content=products&sub=1&subsub=13&product=666 :
But back in the 1980’s the TOZ-35 dominated competitions, and I still had plenty of fun with it in the 1990's -- see http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.it/2007/12/toz-35-range-report.html ,http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271504 , http://www.gunauction.com/buy/9460696 , http://www.pilkguns.com/c17.shtml ; http://www.icollector.com/Hammerli-...Martini-Action-Free-Pistol-with-Box_i10495026 , http://www.frontierarms.com.au/products/handguns/hammerli-fp60-free-pistol.html , http://www.icollector.com/Hammerli-...Martini-Action-Free-Pistol-with-Box_i10495026 , http://www.haemmerli.info/en/home.html , and http://www.haemmerli.info/public/downloads/manuals/2793113_Haemmerli_24Seiter_web.pdf . In the second video, skip ahead about 7 minutes for a very thorough description of Left-Handed version of the TOZ-35, including box:
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More than any other gun, I thought of my Vostok TOZ-35 as "gun sculpture", because of that incredible, carved handgrip. I was a bit obsessed with that handgrip, and it's probably the origin (or one of them) of my tremendous enthusiasm for biomorphic, curvilinear design.
The Vostok TOZ-35 also had this wonderful wooden case. There was a kind of quasi-religious pleasure in carrying the case to the shooting range, opening it with reverence, and then watching the other marksmen marvel as I pulled out my curved and carefully hand-crafted, Russian goddess of a gun -- see http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/02/shooting-guns :
The Economist is right: shooting at a target with a beautifully sculpted free pistol is a blast. But I have no choice, and can no longer touch these highly evolved, stupendously beautiful killing machines.....
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More than any other gun, I thought of my Vostok TOZ-35 as "gun sculpture", because of that incredible, carved handgrip. I was a bit obsessed with that handgrip, and it's probably the origin (or one of them) of my tremendous enthusiasm for biomorphic, curvilinear design.
The Vostok TOZ-35 also had this wonderful wooden case. There was a kind of quasi-religious pleasure in carrying the case to the shooting range, opening it with reverence, and then watching the other marksmen marvel as I pulled out my curved and carefully hand-crafted, Russian goddess of a gun -- see http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/02/shooting-guns :
The Economist is right: shooting at a target with a beautifully sculpted free pistol is a blast. But I have no choice, and can no longer touch these highly evolved, stupendously beautiful killing machines.....
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10. The Walther 2000
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Again, Dad got my brother and I a pair of Walther 2000s as a birthday present. He was importing Walther pistols, so he got the rifles at cost; my brother still has them. But my father and brother moved the gun collection to the United States ages ago, to avoid Canadian annual gun-registration costs….. In Alberta many gun collections went “underground” for the same reason: imagine having to pay a nominal fee every year to re-register not one or two, but hundreds or even thousands of guns. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_WA_2000 , http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Walther_WA_2000 , http://www.snipercentral.com/walther-wa2000/ , http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/de/walther-wa-2000-e.html , http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=31 , http://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/product/walther-wa2000-sniper-rifle , http://www.giantbomb.com/walther-wa-2000/3055-764/ , http://www.carlwalther.com/wa2000.htm , and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCPK94aHlIdV6BEArb2zBglpOonrNFwWY :
The last video shows a "BB" version replica made for Airsoft game-play; it's not the real thing -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft and http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwo...WALTHER_font_color_red_Pre_Order_Now_font.htm .
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10. The Walther 2000
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Again, Dad got my brother and I a pair of Walther 2000s as a birthday present. He was importing Walther pistols, so he got the rifles at cost; my brother still has them. But my father and brother moved the gun collection to the United States ages ago, to avoid Canadian annual gun-registration costs….. In Alberta many gun collections went “underground” for the same reason: imagine having to pay a nominal fee every year to re-register not one or two, but hundreds or even thousands of guns. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_WA_2000 , http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Walther_WA_2000 , http://www.snipercentral.com/walther-wa2000/ , http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/de/walther-wa-2000-e.html , http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=31 , http://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/product/walther-wa2000-sniper-rifle , http://www.giantbomb.com/walther-wa-2000/3055-764/ , http://www.carlwalther.com/wa2000.htm , and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCPK94aHlIdV6BEArb2zBglpOonrNFwWY :
The last video shows a "BB" version replica made for Airsoft game-play; it's not the real thing -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft and http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwo...WALTHER_font_color_red_Pre_Order_Now_font.htm .
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