TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[biotect]

Libransser,

Many thanks for this!! It's a real help, and I'll get on to it tomorrow. In the meantime, if others want to suggest additional starting sub-topics, now would be the time!!

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[Libransser]

Also, thanks to safas for suggesting it. It was the spark.

Other potential topics:

- [Sticky] State of the TerraLiner*
- [Sticky] TerraLiner's Current Major Roadblocks & Challenges
- User Interface & User Experience Design
- Towable Trailers and Other Towable Toys
- Heating, Ventilation & Air-Conditioning
- Legal Boring Stuff To Account For
- Chassis
- Home Automation Technologies
- Assistive Driving Technologies
- Health Preservation, Sanitation & Disease Prevention Systems
- Safety Measures & Equipment
- General Electrical Systems
- Slide-Outs, Pop-Ups, Fold-Downs & Other Moveable Structures
- Powerplants & Drivetrains
- Hydraulic, Air & Other Fluid Systems

* The current hard-set & candidate choices for the TerraLiner.

 

[biotect]

Hi Libransser,

I took your two lists, combined them, and then added a few of my own. Let me know what you think! And to everyone else: please add anything that we've missed!


|-- ExPo Forums Index

|-- General Expedition Camper Discussion and Modifications


​

|--Design Exercise: 12m TerraLiner Class-A/Mobile Beach House Crossover


​

|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: What is the TerraLiner? Basic Design Philosophy & Principles
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: What is the TerraLiner? User Experience & Specifications
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: Exterior Appearance
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: Camper Interior Layout
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: Places the TerraLiner can travel and boondock: scenarios
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: TerraLiner's Current Major Hurdles & Challenges
|-- [sticky] CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Power Requirements Calculation
|-- [sticky] CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Powerplants & Drivetrains; Serial vs Parallel Hybrid
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Slide-Outs and Pop-Ups
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Drop-Down Decks & Pergola Awnings
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Mechanically integrating all movable camper box structures
|-- [Sticky] TOAD GARAGE and TOAD: Design Philosophy, User Experience, & Specifications
|-- [Sticky] INDEX of topics
|-- [Sticky] INDEX of potential manufacturers & providers for the TerraLiner
|-- [Sticky] THE FIRST TERRALINER THREAD



​

DESIGN​

|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: Camper Interior Layout
|-- DESIGN: Art Deco & Streamline Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: Retrofuturistic Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: Vintage Bus Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: Chinese Six Bus Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: GLAMPING inspiration
|-- DESIGN: Large Windows & Skylights & sources of inspiration (e.g. Skoolies)
|-- DESIGN: KITCHEN & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN: BATHROOM & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN: LIVING ROOM & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN: BEDROOM & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN: YOGA SPACE & GYM: sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN: REMOVABLE TRUNK-CABINETS, sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN: INTERIOR STAIRCASE & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN: INTERIOR FLOOR COVERING & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN: INTERIOR DOORS & sources of inspiration



​

DESIGN + ENGINEERING​

|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Slide-Outs and Pop-Ups
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Drop-Down Decks & Pergola Awnings
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Mechanically integrating all movable camper box structures
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: the Driving Station and Cab Interior, aesthetics, electronics & user experience
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Front Segmented Windshield
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Windows, Smart Glass and Thermal Blinds
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Cab Seating & Inspiration



​

CHASSIS ENGINEERING​

|-- [sticky] CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Power Requirements Calculation
|-- [sticky] CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Powerplants & Drivetrains; Serial vs Parallel Hybrid
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Turbine Generators
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Diesel Generators
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Battery Packs
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Electric Motors and Regenerative Braking
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Hydrodrive Motors
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Straight-Axle vs Independent and/or Pneumatic Suspension
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Solar Power
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Wind Power
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Rigid, Semi-Moncoque construction and precedents
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: construction materials – aluminum, steel, fiber-glass, carbon fiber



​

CAMPER BOX ENGINEERING​

|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Watermakers, Atmospheric Water Generators, and Rooft-top Rainwater Collection
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Water Filtration, Health Preservation, Sanitation, and Disease Prevention
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Vacu-Flush, Incinerator Toilets, and other bathroom fixtures
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Camper Box Thermal Engineering
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Heating, Ventilation & Air-Conditioning​

|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: General Electrical Systems​

|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Hydraulic, Air & Other Fluid Systems
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Home Automation Technologies
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Entertainment Technologies



​

THE TERRALINER TOAD GARAGE​

|-- [Sticky] TOAD GARAGE and TOAD: Design Philosophy, User Experience, & Specifications
|-- TOAD GARAGE ENGINEERING: Toad Launch and Recovery Systems
|-- TOAD GARAGE ENGINEERING: Toad Garage drive motors: electric or hydraulic?
|-- TOAD GARAGE ENGINEERING: Toad Garage suspension
|-- TOAD GARAGE DESIGN: Interior Layout and the Toys it will carry
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: windsurfers
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: kayaks
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: surfboards
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: kite-surfer
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: diving equipment
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: collapsible WETA trimaran
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: powered paraglider
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: the RIB Dive-Boat



​

THE TERRALINER TOAD​

|-- TOAD: Basic design parameters, User Experience, & Specifications
|-- TOAD: Vehicle Options and Design
|-- TOAD: Camperette Options and Design



​

MISCELLANEOUS​

|-- TerraLiner Security Measures & Safety Equipment
|-- The Ethics of Motorhoming in the Third World
|-- Legal Boring Stuff To Account For
​

All Best Wishes,



Biotect

​

​

 

[Libransser]

I think there are too many stickys. Only a handful of those are essential and it's not really a big of an issue for the others considering there's going to be a couple of indexes with links to them. Even some of the stickys I suggested wouldn't make the cut. For me, 5 stickys would be the absolute maximum, allowing the other discussion threads to be seen without the stickys getting too much in the way. But that's just my opinion.

The title prefixes are nice, using the Sort By Title feature would allow to group them for easier identification.

Wouldn't it be better to change the DESIGN prefix to INSPIRATION for those threads that would only contain precedents & inspiration stuff versus the actual design being done for the TL?

I wonder if there is value in having direct comparisons (Serial vs Hybrid, Solid Axle vs Independent) this early in the sub-forum. It has already been discussed in this thread, which I see will be in the sub-forum archived.

We are missing a thread about general bathroom stuff, we are only including toilets and inspirational stuff.

What would this be about? And how would it not be already included in the other related threads?

|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Mechanically integrating all movable camper box structures
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: construction materials – aluminum, steel, fiber-glass, carbon fiber

You didn't change the title for the legal stuff XD.

 

[biotect]

I guess I thought of "mechanically integrating" as the place where we'd figure out how to combine drop-down decks with slide-outs. But perhaps it's repetitive, and unnecessary.

Construction materials is exactly what it says: out of what materials should the TerraLiner be constructed, and where. Even in high-end motorhomes Prevost uses a completely stainless-steel frame, whereas Newell uses steel below, and aluminum above. Both have their virtues and weakness. Although personally, I like that idea of aluminum-skin construction for all sorts of reasons, and I know that Iain is heavily biased in favor of aluminum. So that thread would discuss materials, their virtues, and their defects.

Please, go ahead and edit the "sticky" list, down to the 5 that you consider the most essential. I'll use whatever edit you think best. And use text colored red to add any things that I might have forgot, or to cut things that seem redundant. That also goes for anyone else reading this -- safas, Luke H, Silverado, egn, Haf-E: please feel free to intervene! It would be good to have a well-worked-out list before I talk to the Administrators.

I did forget a few more things:


|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Wheels and Tires
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Braking Systems for Electric Vehicles
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: TerraLiner Service Logistics
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Impact and Damage Mitigation, Skid-Plates, Roll-bars, Bull-bars, etc.


As for Design/inspiration: I'd like to leave both Design and inspiration in those title blocks. That way they would be threads where I could post sketches, but also threads where others can post interesting images they've found. To participate, they won't have to be designers themselves; all they'd need to know how to do, is upload images. I'd like all threads to very much encourage image-uploading, but the design threads in particular.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[Libransser]

I guess I thought of "mechanically integrating" as the place where we'd figure out how to combine drop-down decks with slide-outs. But perhaps it's repetitive, and unnecessary.

Then let's combine them in one thread. That seems like an important consideration to take into account right from the beginning, as it will affect the design of both.

Construction materials is exactly what it says: out of what materials should the TerraLiner be constructed, and where. Even in high-end motorhomes Prevost uses a completely stainless-steel frame, whereas Newell uses steel below, and aluminum above. Both have their virtues and weakness. Although personally, I like that idea of aluminum-skin construction for all sorts of reasons, and I know that Iain is heavily biased in favor of aluminum. So that thread would discuss materials, their virtues, and their defects.

Of course, but what I mean is that isn't that something to be discussed in each one of the specific threads? Seems pretty straight-forward to talk about what material the wheels should be in the Wheels & Tires thread, what material the chassis should be in the Chassis thread, what material the camper skin should be in the Camper thread, and so on, than to do that in a separate thread. After all, the material's properties can affect a great deal the route a design takes, or even dictate if it's possible at all.

If it's only used to objectively discuss materials would it serve more to gather facts and as a handy reference?

As for Design/inspiration: I'd like to leave both Design and inspiration in those title blocks. That way they would be threads where I could post sketches, but also threads where others can post interesting images they've found. To participate, they won't have to be designers themselves; all they'd need to know how to do, is upload images. I'd like all threads to very much encourage image-uploading, but the design threads in particular.

Then let's add it as a prefix so when sorting by title, or doing a quick visual scan, we can easily identify them.

So, how about this:

---

|-- ExPo Forums Index

|-- General Expedition Camper Discussion and Modifications
​

|-- Design Exercise: 12m TerraLiner Class-A/Mobile Beach House Crossover
​

|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: What is the TerraLiner? Basic Design Philosophy & Principles
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: What is the TerraLiner? User Experience & Specifications
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: What is the TerraLiner? Basic Design Philosophy, Principles & Specifications
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: Exterior Appearance
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: Camper Box Interior Layout
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: Places the TerraLiner can travel and boondock: scenarios
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: State of the TerraLiner & TerraLiner's Current Major Hurdles
|-- [sticky] CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Power Requirements Calculation
|-- [sticky] CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Powerplants & Drivetrains; Serial vs Parallel Hybrid
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Slide-Outs and Pop-Ups
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Drop-Down Decks & Pergola Awnings
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Mechanically integrating all movable camper box structures
|-- [Sticky] TOAD GARAGE and TOAD: Design Philosophy, User Experience, & Specifications
|-- [Sticky] INDEX of topics
|-- [Sticky] INDEX: Index of Topics
|-- [Sticky] INDEX of potential manufacturers & providers for the TerraLiner
|-- [Sticky] HELP: How to Upload Images and Post Videos
|-- INDEX: Potential Manufacturers & Providers for the TerraLiner
|-- [Sticky] THE FIRST TERRALINER THREAD
​

DESIGN​

|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: Camper Interior Layout
|-- DESIGN: Camper Box Interior Layout
|-- DESIGN: Art Deco & Streamline Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Art Deco & Streamline - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: Retrofuturistic Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Retrofuturistic - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: Vintage Bus Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Vintage Buses - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: Chinese Six Bus Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Chinese-Six Buses - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: GLAMPING inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Glamping - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: Large Windows & Skylights & sources of inspiration (e.g. Skoolies)
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Large Windows & Skylights - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: KITCHEN & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Kitchens - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: BATHROOM & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Bathrooms - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: LIVING ROOM & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Living Rooms - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: BEDROOM & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Bedrooms - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: YOGA SPACE & GYM: sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Yoga Space & GYM - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: REMOVABLE TRUNK-CABINETS, sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Removable Trunk-Cabinets - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: INTERIOR STAIRCASE & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Interior Staircases - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: INTERIOR FLOOR COVERING & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Interior Floor Covering - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN: INTERIOR DOORS & sources of inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Interior Doors - Sources of Inspiration

​

DESIGN + ENGINEERING​

|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Slide-Outs and Pop-Ups
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Drop-Down Decks & Pergola Awnings
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Mechanically integrating all movable camper box structures
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Slide-Outs, Pop-Ups, Drop-Down Decks & Pergola Awnings
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: the Driving Station and Cab Interior, aesthetics, electronics & user experience
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Cabin & Driving Station Interior, Seating, & Electronics
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Front Segmented Windshield
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Windows, Smart Glass and Thermal Blinds
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Windshields, Windows, Skylights, Smart Glass and Thermal Blinds
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Cab Seating & Inspiration

​

CHASSIS ENGINEERING​

|-- [sticky] CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Power Requirements Calculation
|-- [sticky] CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Powerplants & Drivetrains; Serial vs Parallel Hybrid
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Powerplants, Powertrains & Power Requirements Calculation
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Turbine Generators
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Diesel Generators
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Battery Packs
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Batteries and Battery Technologies
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Electric Motors and Regenerative Braking
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Braking Systems
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Hydrodrive Motors
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Straight-Axle vs Independent and/or Pneumatic Suspension
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Suspension Systems
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Solar Power
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Wind Power
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Rigid, Semi-Monocoque Construction and Precedents
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Construction Materials – Aluminum, Steel, Fiberglass, Carbon Fiber
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Wheels and Tires
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Braking Systems for Electric Vehicles
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: TerraLiner Service Logistics
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Impact and Damage Mitigation, Skid-Plates, Roll-bars, Bull-bars, etc.

​

CAMPER BOX ENGINEERING​

|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Watermakers, Atmospheric Water Generators, and Roof-Top Rainwater Collection
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Watermakers, Atmospheric Water Generators, & Rainwater Collection
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Water Filtration, Health Preservation, Sanitation, and Disease Prevention
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Health Preservation, Sanitation, and Disease Prevention
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: VacuFlush, Incinerator Toilets, and Other Bathroom Fixtures
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Toilets, Showers, Tubs and Other Bathroom Fixtures
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Camper Box Thermal Engineering
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Heating, Ventilation & Air-Conditioning
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: General Electrical Systems
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Hydraulic, Air & Other Fluid Systems
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Home Automation Technologies
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Entertainment Technologies
​

THE TERRALINER TOAD GARAGE​

|-- [Sticky] TOAD GARAGE and TOAD: Design Philosophy, User Experience, & Specifications
|-- TOAD TRAILER: Design Philosophy, Specs, Interior Layout & Toy Carrying Capacities
|-- TOAD GARAGE ENGINEERING: Toad Launch and Recovery Systems
|-- TOAD GARAGE ENGINEERING: Toad Garage drive motors: electric or hydraulic?
|-- TOAD GARAGE ENGINEERING: Toad Garage suspension
|-- TOAD TRAILER: Drivetrain, Suspension, Braking and Other Systems
|-- TOAD GARAGE DESIGN: Interior Layout and the Toys it will carry
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: windsurfers
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: kayaks
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: surfboards
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: kite-surfer
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: diving equipment
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: collapsible WETA trimaran
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: powered paraglider
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: the RIB Dive-Boat
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Windsurfing Boards & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Kayaks & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Surfboards & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Kite-Surfer & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Diving Equipment & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Collapsible WETA Trimaran & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Powered Paraglider & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: The RIB Dive-Boat & Gear

​

THE TERRALINER TOAD​

|-- TOAD: Basic design parameters, User Experience, & Specifications
|-- TOAD: Vehicle Options and Design
|-- TOAD: Camperette Options and Design
|-- TOAD: Vehicle & Camperette Design and Specifications

​

MISCELLANEOUS​

|-- TerraLiner Security Measures & Safety Equipment
|-- The Ethics of Motorhoming in the Third World
|-- Legal Boring Stuff To Account For
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: TerraLiner Security Measures and Equipment
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: TerraLiner, Pedestrians & Occupants Safety Measures and Equipment
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: The Ethics of Motorhoming in the Third World
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: Legal Boring Stuff To Account For
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: Places the TerraLiner Can Travel and Boondock: Scenarios
|-- INDEX: Potential Manufacturers & Providers for the TerraLiner
​

---

Some notes:

I chose to reduce/combine several threads when I perceived too much fragmentation, when a topic being left on its own could have a shorter life, or when a group of topics would be pulling from each other too much, like using something here automatically would change what goes there.

It was specially hard, for example, on the "Powerplants, Powertrains & Power Requirements Calculation" thread, where I had to include the generators as they would work as a powerplant, or as a powertrain, and the choice of serial versus parallel would affect powerplants, drivetrains and power calculations. I also had to shoehorn (electric) motors here, as part of the powertrain.

I would like to expand on the reasoning behind my choices and where everything fits, but that will have to wait, I'm sleepy now.

Either way, I think it is better to start a bit more general with the topics. If the conversation gets too specific it's always easier to split it into a new thread to focus sorely on that, whereas combining threads is a bit harder and messy, although nothing otherworldly.

I had to shorten a few titles, but I think all of them are below the 85 character limit for thread titles.

 

[Libransser]

Here is a clean up version:


|-- ExPo Forums Index

|-- General Expedition Camper Discussion and Modifications
​

|-- Design Exercise: 12m TerraLiner Class-A/Mobile Beach House Crossover
​

|-- [Sticky] DESIGN: What is the TerraLiner? Basic Design Philosophy, Principles & Specifications
|-- [Sticky] DESIGN/ENGINEERING: State of the TerraLiner & TerraLiner's Current Major Hurdles
|-- [Sticky] INDEX: Index of Topics
|-- [Sticky] HELP: How to Upload Images and Post Videos
|-- [Sticky] THE FIRST TERRALINER THREAD
​

DESIGN​

|-- DESIGN: Camper Box Interior Layout
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Art Deco & Streamline - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Bathrooms - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Bedrooms - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Chinese-Six Buses - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Glamping - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Interior Doors - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Interior Floor Covering - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Interior Staircases - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Kitchens - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Large Windows & Skylights - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Living Rooms - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Removable Trunk-Cabinets - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Retrofuturistic - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Vintage Buses - Sources of Inspiration
|-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Yoga Space & GYM - Sources of Inspiration
​

DESIGN + ENGINEERING​

|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Cabin & Driving Station Interior, Seating, & Electronics
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Slide-Outs, Pop-Ups, Drop-Down Decks & Pergola Awnings
|-- DESIGN/ENGINEERING: Windshields, Windows, Skylights, Smart Glass and Thermal Blinds
​

CHASSIS ENGINEERING​

|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Batteries and Battery Technologies
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Braking Systems
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Construction Materials: Aluminum, Steel, Fiberglass, Carbon Fiber
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Powerplants, Powertrains & Power Requirements Calculation
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Rigid, Semi-Monocoque Construction and Precedents
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Solar Power
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Suspension Systems
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: TerraLiner Service Logistics
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Wheels and Tires
|-- CHASSIS ENGINEERING: Wind Power
​

CAMPER BOX ENGINEERING​

|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Camper Box Thermal Engineering
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Entertainment Technologies
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: General Electrical Systems
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Health Preservation, Sanitation, and Disease Prevention
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Heating, Ventilation & Air-Conditioning
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Home Automation Technologies
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Hydraulic, Air & Other Fluid Systems
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Toilets, Showers, Tubs and Other Bathroom Fixtures
|-- CAMPER ENGINEERING: Watermakers, Atmospheric Water Generators, & Rainwater Collection
​

THE TERRALINER TOAD & TOAD GARAGE TRAILER​

|-- TOAD: Vehicle & Camperette Design and Specifications
|-- TOAD TRAILER: Design Philosophy, Specs, Interior Layout & Toy Carrying Capacities
|-- TOAD TRAILER: Drivetrain, Suspension, Braking and Other Systems
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Windsurfing Boards & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Kayaks & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Surfboards & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Kite-Surfer & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Diving Equipment & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Collapsible WETA Trimaran & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: Powered Paraglider & Gear
|-- TERRALINER TOYS: The RIB Dive-Boat & Gear
​

MISCELLANEOUS​

|-- MISCELLANEOUS: TerraLiner Security Measures and Equipment
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: TerraLiner, Pedestrians & Occupants Safety Measures and Equipment
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: The Ethics of Motorhoming in the Third World
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: Legal Boring Stuff To Account For
|-- MISCELLANEOUS: Places the TerraLiner Can Travel and Boondock: Scenarios
|-- INDEX: Potential Manufacturers & Providers for the TerraLiner
​

 

[biotect]

Hi Libransser,

Fantastic work, very systematic and well thought-through. Let me mull it over for a few weeks, and so too, let others mull it over. It's best to approach the Administrators only once we have a fairly complete list. I've already added a few more thread-titles that I missed, for instance, something as basic as |-- DESIGN/INSPIRATION: Class A & Liner Motorhomes. I'll give us a limit of January 25th, just in case others want to add a few more items. And then I'll post a final consolidated list on January 26th, and contact the forum Administrators.

This is a terrific idea, Libransser, and it really will solve the thread's problems. For instance, at the beginning of each new sub-thread, I will post links to relevant pages in "The Original TerraLiner Thread". So the sub-threads will also in effect become an index referencing the original thread, with the first few posts of each sub-thread devoted to discussing the topic as developed thus far, as well as providing lots of embedded hot-links to the original thread. I may ask the Adminstrators to allow me to set up all of the above threads "privately" at first, so that I can establish the tone and scope of each sub-thread in the first few posts. Needless to say, once it's up and running, others will be able to add additional sub-threads for topics that we still managed to miss. But it seems important to set a clear direction for each sub-thread with a few opening posts, so that participants won't be lost.

It's a wonderful proposal; let's see if the ExPo administrators are in favor!

All best wishes,




Biotect

 

[Iain_U1250]

Found a few "challenging roads" for Terraliner

 

[biotect]

Hi Iain,
Amazing, simply terrific video, and some truly frightening roads. But roads that would be loads of fun to drive for the TerraLiner's super-compact, 4x4 TOAD!!:wings:

All best,


Biotect

 

[grizzlyj]

Hi Biotect et al

No, I have not yet read all this monster but I will catch up when I can.

My last camper had 395 85 R20 XZLs and I could change them on split rims by myself fairly easily. And, if I dropped one flat I could stand it up again on flat, smooth ground.

But I recently had a chance to play with mounted 16.00 R20s, and having rolled them out the back of a van, the one that laid flat stayed there! No way can I pick that up!! Nice though, even if some sort of pulley system would be needed to get the tyre to where its needed, and then aligning the bolts would be another thing altogether! So sticking to 14.00s as I think you said you would seems a good idea just from a manageability point of view.

Also, and I'm sure its easily got overable by the R&D budget of this thread, but a MAN Kat 1 I looked at recently did have the subframe isolated from chassis movement as direct from the army, so stiff but not that stiff perhaps?

Cheers

:ylsmoke:

 

[biotect]

Hi grizzlyj,

Good to hear from you. The solution would be further stiffening.

Take a good look at the Newell chassis, and what I wrote about how Newell builds its coaches in post #2331 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1991724#post1991724. Also see http://www.newellcoach.com/features/construction/ and http://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/newell-chassis-255502.html :






I figure MAN would provide the SX-44 ladder frame; the steering (tandem steering in front, and rear-axle steering in back, because the TerraLiner will have a Chinese-Six axle configuration): and progressive-coil suspension suspension. And that's about it. The drive-train will be serial-hybrid, and it remains to be seen whether MAN would be the best provider. I just came across a terrific 198 page document about hybrid technologies produced by the Department of Defence in 2012, so we'll see where I stand once I've worked my way through it -- see http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA567008 .

Side-note: frame-lengthening, rear-axle steering, a Chinese-Six axle configuration, and two steered tandem front axles are no problem at all for MAN. See posts #1864 to #1878 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1955162#post1955162 and following. These are advertised by MAN itself as factory-installed modifications that can be ordered through MAN's "Modification Competence Center".



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1. A Brief Tangent on Active Air, Hydro-Pneumatic Suspension, and the Citroen DS


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I'm also still not quite certain about the suspension part, because I like the idea of independent suspension on all three axles, as per Oshkosh's TAK 4. TAK 4 is commercially available, even though it was originally developed for the military -- see posts #1107 to #1112 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1738814#post1738814 and following, and #1119 - #1125 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1739065#post1739065 and following.

But I also like the idea of hydro-pneumatic suspension, which is available for the MAN SX series trucks:

The secret of [the SX's] high mobility is the progressive coil spring suspension for extremely long spring travel which permits rapid adjustment to the terrain. Additional shock absorbers with integrated dampers on the rear axle are available on request. A special highlight is the optional hydro-pneumatic suspension with integrated, regulated, load-depednent shock-absorbers and extremely long spring travel for top driving stability under the toughest conditions. It is equipped with a height adjustment and can be locked in any position.

And then there's "Active Air" automatic leveling, a system that constantly micro-adjusts a motorhome suspension to compensate for cross-winds, cornering, etc. -- see http://www.hwhcorp.com/activeaircontrol3.html . Skip ahead 3 minutes, 20 seconds into the video:










I wonder if this sort of active suspension could be combined somehow with MAN's hydro-pneumatic suspension? HWH's Active-Air is designed to be used in motorhomes that have air-bag suspensions, so I suppose not. But I wonder whether a hydro-pneumatic equivalent exists? Citroen's "hydro-active" suspension is perhaps not that different from military versions of hydro-pneumatic suspension (?), and Citroen's suspension does much the same as HWH's Active Air -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension :






Suspension is a huge can of worms. We dipped into it once before in the thread, with no resolution and lots of agro, so I've been leaving it alone for now. I don't want to open that whole can of worms again. But I am curious to know whether military hydro-pneumatic suspension systems have capabilities similar to a Citroen DS, or HWH's Active Air? If anyone reading this knows the answer, please post!! Hydro-pneumatic suspension seems to be a "big thing" in contemporary military vehicles, so it would be good to know more about it, and what it can and can't do, in its military versions. safas?....

The Citroen DS is also one of the greatest cars of all time, and arguably the most beautiful. I love the DS's curvilinear design, hence the surplus of videos, and some more images below.....:sombrero: See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...-worlds-most-beautiful-car.html?frame=2347092 , http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-citroen-ds-19-why-its-the-ultimate-classic-car-1430501156 , http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/introducing-auto-ego/?ref=topics , http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/01/automobiles/collectibles/01EGO.html , http://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/13/magazine/memory-a-madeleine-on-wheels.html?pagewanted=all , http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/a...rench-futuristic-and-desired-by-few.html?_r=0 , http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/17/this-citron-ds-is-a-real-transformer/ , https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/driven-citroën-ds-décapotable , and https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/citroen/ds-23/1974/206277 :








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Notice in particular how beautiful the DS looks when set beside water. Curvilinear and water go together, and rectilinear and water do not. Curvilinear is the "natural" design language of a surf-glamper.

The French so loved the DS that they nicknamed it "the goddess", and the famous literary critic Roland Barthes wrote a short essay celebrating its marriage of design and engineering excellence -- see http://www.influx.co.uk/features/citroen-ds/ :

“I think that cars today are almost the exact equivalent of the great Gothic cathedrals: I mean the supreme creation of an era, conceived with passion by unknown artists, and consumed in image if not in usage by a whole population which appropriates them as a purely magical object.”

“It is obvious that the new Citroen has fallen from the sky inasmuch as it appears at first sight as a superlative object. We must not forget that an object is the best messenger of a world above that of nature: one can easily see in an object at once a perfection and an absence of origin, a closure and a brilliance, a transformation of life into matter (matter is much more magical than life), and in a word a silence which belongs to the realm of fairy-tales.”

“The D.S. – the “Goddess” – has all the features (or at least the public is unanimous in attributing them to it at first sight) of one of those objects from another universe which have supplied fuel for the neomania of the eighteenth century and that of our own science-fiction: the Deesse is first and foremost a new Nautilus.”

“It is well known that smoothness is always an attribute of perfection because its opposite reveals a technical and typically human operation of assembling: Christ’s robe was seamless, just as the airships of science-fiction are made of unbroken metal. The D.S 19 has no pretensions about being as smooth as cake-icing, although its its general shape is very rounded; yet it is the dove-tailing of its sections which interest the public most: one keenly fingers the edges of the windows, one feels along the wide rubber grooves which link the back window to its metal surround.”

“There are in the D.S. the beginnings of a new phenomenology of assembling, as if one progressed from a world where elements are welded to a world where they are juxtaposed and hold together by sole virtue of their wondrous shape, which of course is meant to prepare one for the idea of a more benign Nature.”

“We are therefore dealing here with a humanized art, and it is possible that the Deesse marks a change in the mythology of cars. Until now, the ultimate in cars belonged rather to the bestiary of power; here it becomes at once more spiritual and more object-like, and despite some concessions to neomania (such as the empty steering wheel), it is now more homely, more attuned to this sublimation of the utensil which one also finds in the design of contemporary household equipment.”

“The dashboard looks more like the working surface of a modern kitchen than the control room of a factory; the slim panes of matt fluted metal, the small levers topped by a white ball, the very simple dials, the very discreetness of the nickel-work, all this signifies a kind of control exercised over motion rather than performance. One is obviously turning from an alchemy of speed to a relish in driving.”

“The public, it seems, has admirably divined the novelty of the themes which are suggested to it. Responding at first to the neologism (a whole publicity campaign had kept it on the alert for years), it tries very quickly to fall back on a behaviour which indicates adjustment and a readiness to use (“You’ve got to get used to it “). In the exhibition halls, the car on show is explored with an intense, amorous studiousness: it is the great tactile phase of discovery, the moment when visual wonder is about to receive the reasoned assault of touch (for touch is the most demystifying of all senses, unlike sight, which is the most magical).”

“The bodywork, the lines of union are touched, the upholstery palpated, the seats tried, the doors caressed, the cushions fondled; before the wheel, one pretends to drive with one’s whole body. The object here is totally prostituted, appropriated: originating from the heaven of Metropolis , the Goddess is in a quarter of an hour mediatized, actualizing through this exorcism the very essence of petit-bourgeois advancement.”


©Roland Barthes
Reproduced with permission from
Mythologies
Vintage
ISBN 0 09 997220 4
1957

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2. Back to TerraLiner Construction for Maximal Torsional Rigidity


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In any case, I figure that an SX chassis from MAN then gets shipped over to Newell, which becomes responsible for building the TerraLiner on top of it. Newell already has a strong vested interest in building its chassis-frames as rigid as possible, because Newell motorhomes now have four big slide-outs.







If there's any torsion or twist in the chassis, then the slide-outs seize up and bind, and they simply won't work. Again, see post #2231 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1991724#post1991724 for extensive discussion of the problems of slide-outs installed in motorhomes that have cheap, badly built chassis frames.

Even if a slide-out is just a bit out of alignment, its gasket-seals get ruined, and repairing gaskets is expensive and time-consuming. So Newell creates a complete truss-like base-structure out of steel, and builds a fully integrated camper shell on top of that out of aluminum, as pictured above, precisely so that its customers won't have this problem. After all, they're paying on average 1.5 million USD for their Newell motorhomes. The second image is actually a Roadmaster chassis, but you get the general idea: a base-chassis in steel, mated to a camper box shell in aluminum, and the whole thing designed to function vertically as well as horizontally as a single unit, as a very rigid semi-monocoque shell.

Now I don't know how well Newell's truss-structure would compare in off-road conditions versus MAN's SX-44 frame, or IVECO-Astra's heavy-duty rigid truck frames -- see posts #1879 to #1881 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1955301#post1955301 and following. In its military vehicles MAN does not "build" much around its ladder frames, whereas Newell in effect constructs a complete truss structure. In the image on the left above, the side-lockers may appear to have been just dropped or hung down from a ladder frame above, with perhaps only 20 cm of clearance above the road. But this is not what is going on structurally. The whole thing is built like a steel bridge, a bridge about 1 - 1.5 m high, 2.5 m wide, and 13.72 m long. If you look at the image carefully, it looks more like the rigid steel shell of a firetruck, except that it's half-height. All those boxy spaces below are not just very convenient places to store things. They are also thick, steel-walled elements of the truss-structure.

Of course the TerraLiner will have to be different, because it needs 60 - 65 cm of ground clearance, which is the clearance of the axles in any case when mounting Michelin 14.00 tires. Furthermore, the long space between the TerraLiner's tandem axles in front, and the third axle in the rear, does not need to have more ground clearance -- nor any less -- than 65 cm too.

I used to be worried about the problem of "turtling", which I discussed at length in post #750 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1673893#post1673893 . In the following images notice how MAN angles the drive axles upwards so that the ground clearance between the first and second axles is higher than the ground clearance of the axles themselves:







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In other words, MAN increases the height of the peak of the "break-over angle" to perhaps 70 cm or 80 cm, in order to somewhat mitigate the problem of turtling when going over small hills -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakover_angle :








But I've not yet seen a single 6x6 expedition motorhome that does not completely negate this possibility of a better break-over angle, because all of them attach side-lockers between the axles, side-lockers whose bottoms have no more clearance than the axle-centers of the wheels, i..e. 60 - 65 cm. Here is a gamut of images to prove my point:









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Even military versions of the SX-44 will do the same, and throw away what could have been a much better break-over angle:







So for aerodynamic as well as deep fording reasons, I've taken up Libransser's suggestion that the entire bottom of the TerraLiner should be one big continuous skid plate, about 65 cm off the ground. One of the biggest aerodynamic problems for trucks is that their under-bodies are a rough-and-tumble hodgepodge of stuff. Smooth all of that out with underbody sheets of metal, and one can radically improve the underbody laminar flow, and hence, the drag coefficient.

I then figure that between 65 cm above grade, and 1.6 m above grade where the floor of the camper box begins, there should be lots of room for Newell to work its magic building a super-stiff truss structure. The very rigid ladder frame provided by MAN or IVECO-Astra could serve as the "core", and Newell would then further reinforce that to create a super-rigid 1 m thick "box truss", with spaces for the diesel-electric generators, the fuel tanks and water tanks, the 200 KW battery bank, and so on.

The contrast to the images of expedition motorhomes that I just posted above is then this. In the images above, the side-lockers seem like they were just "tacked on", merely "slung down" from the ladder frame. It doesn't seem like they are integral parts of a total truss-structure that runs clear across the width of the vehicle, and encompasses the total volume between 65 cm and 1.6 m above grade. What do I mean by this? Well, again, a truss-structure that looks something like the following:








Except, once again, the TerraLiner's steel truss structure will need 65 cm of ground clearance, provided by those Michelin 14.00 tires. Here too, the first two images are of the Newell chassis, while the second two are of the Roadmaster chassis, which more or less constructs according to the same logic as Newell. For more about the Roadmaster chassis, see posts #732 and #733 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1672458#post1672458 and following.

Also notice how in the DoLeoni MAN-KAT (shown in the second row above), there does not seem to be any intervening pivoting subframe. Take a look at the "Processing" images on the DoLeoni website. As near as I can tell, DoLeoni just mounted the camper box directly on top of the MAN-KAT ladder-frame -- see http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/#prettyPhoto[3425-1 MAN, KAT 1 A 1]/0/ , http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/#prettyPhoto[3425-2 Man, PROCESSING]/0/ , http://www.doleoni.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/CAMPER-MAN-6X6-Febbraio-20121.pdf , http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/#prettyPhoto[3425-3 Man, TECHNICAL DESIGN]/0/ , and http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/#prettyPhoto[3425-4 Man, CAR INTERIORS]/0/ . Maybe there are rubber spacers or very low-rise springs in between, maybe not. But there appears to be no pivoting sub-frame.

Even still, I would not want to do the same with the TerraLiner, because the TerraLiner will have slide-outs, and yet the TerraLiner will also drive into and out of farmer's fields. So the TerraLiner will do a bit of "off-road" driving, and certainly lots of "bad road" driving. As such, the truss-structure that I've just described needs to be even more rigid than an SX-44 ladder frame, and so too it needs to be more rigid than the truss-structure that Newell typically builds.

Think of it this way. In its SX series trucks, MAN relies on the ladder frame and only the ladder frame to provide torsional rigidity:







But the TerraLiner will be a motorhome, not an off-road military delivery truck!

So just like any Class A fully integrated motorhome, one would want Newell to construct all the side-lockers and rear lockers and space to store stuff beside the ladder frame, that one finds in a Newell motorhome. Except that one starts with 65 cm of road clearance, instead of 20 cm. So given that Newell will have to construct all that volume in any case, why not do it properly? Instead of just tacking a few side lockers on the ladder frame rails, why not seize the opportunity to incorporate the SX-44 frame into a truss-like structure of the kind that Newell builds? One will have to create the volume anyway, so why not use this as an excuse to further amplify torsional rigidity? For further discussion, also see post #1887 and following at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1955699#post1955699 .

Also remember that because the TerraLiner will be a serial hybrid with electric hub motors, all the drive-train and transmission stuff that usually runs down the center-line of an AWD 6x6, won't be there. Sure, there may be roughly two tons (200 KW) of Proterra's Nickel Magnesium Cobalt (NMC) batteries packed between and around the ladder-frame rails, but that's a different story.....:sombrero:






See http://www.proterra.com , http://www.proterra.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Tearsheets_ExtendedRange.pdf , and http://www.proterra.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Tearsheets_EnergyStorage.pdf .


All best wishes,





Biotect