TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain
- Thread starter biotect
- Start date
egn
Adventurer
As I already wrote and grizzlyj confirmed, mobile cranes are no offroad vehicle. Stearing can be much more complex without any risk for breakdown.
My critics regarding the rear axle steering of the Unicat doesn't mean that it is impossible, but I think this was a solution far from optimum.
Of course, you can build robuster all-wheel steering, but is it worth the cost for vehicles of 10-12 m?
The steering is always at risk with off-road vehicle, because steering axles are much more complex then normal axles and often there are components that can be hit by obstacles.
It may be necessary to ensure a valid turning circle. But my opionen is similiar to grizzlyj, vehicles requiring all-wheel steering aren't something for the mass.
BTW, today I was at an offroad event and the son of a buddy showed his all-wheel-drive all-wheel-steering sx45 8x8: :Wow1:
It is very capable offroad, but as every axle has its own motor differentials are missing. I gave him the tipp to switch the motors in series connection to get electrical differential by having the same current to thru all the motors. Next time we will see what the result will be. :truck: :smiley_drive:
My critics regarding the rear axle steering of the Unicat doesn't mean that it is impossible, but I think this was a solution far from optimum.
Of course, you can build robuster all-wheel steering, but is it worth the cost for vehicles of 10-12 m?
The steering is always at risk with off-road vehicle, because steering axles are much more complex then normal axles and often there are components that can be hit by obstacles.
It may be necessary to ensure a valid turning circle. But my opionen is similiar to grizzlyj, vehicles requiring all-wheel steering aren't something for the mass.
BTW, today I was at an offroad event and the son of a buddy showed his all-wheel-drive all-wheel-steering sx45 8x8: :Wow1:
It is very capable offroad, but as every axle has its own motor differentials are missing. I gave him the tipp to switch the motors in series connection to get electrical differential by having the same current to thru all the motors. Next time we will see what the result will be. :truck: :smiley_drive:
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biotect
Designer
Hi Moe,
The off-road mobile clinic thing has kinda been done already....
Don't know about an 8x8, but a 6x6 Zetros-based mobile rabies clinic is now traveling around India:
See http://www.missionrabies.com/thetruck/ , http://www.autoevolution.com/news-g...-used-for-rabies-control-in-india/138455.html , http://www.autoevolution.com/news/m...e-used-for-rabies-control-in-india-64656.html , http://www.expedition-trucks.com/brokers/mercedes-benz-zetros-6x6-veterinary-hospital , and http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-1130193-1-1622009-1-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html . As for an 8x8 version, one imagines that the U.S. Army has already built any number of mobile field hospitals mountable on 8x8 Oshkosh trucks.
So to be honest, the "mobile clinic" is not that interesting as a vehicle type; or at least it's not that interesting to me. It's a fairly standard design exercise seized upon by any number of MFA students. Blogs that track concept-vehicles are full of "mobile hospital" or "disaster-relief" proposals, no doubt because some designers feel the need to prove themselves socially relevant, and they dread the idea that they might become mere lackeys facilitating capitalist consumption.
*****************************
1. Design is not Glorified Social Work
Now my own politics tend to be center-left: a Euro-style Social Democrat who votes SPD in Germany, and Labor in Britain (I can vote in both countries, when resident). So I am not critiquing this tendency from a right-wing or libertarian perspective. If you want to get a sense of where my politics locate, just check out the "Ethics of Third World Travel by Motorhome" thread, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...rd-World-Travel-by-Motorhome?highlight=ethics . Rather, I am critiquing this tendency as a designer, and as an artist. IMHO, some of the least interesting art is "socially committed" or "politically relevant" art. There is a lot to be said for Art-for-Art's sake. What's wrong with visual experimentation and exploration as an end in itself? It's enjoyable for the explorer, and so too, it tends to be valued more in the long run by the culture (think Impressionism, and almost every other Art "ism" that follows).
I kinda feel the same way about design. As a designer, my central goal should be visual excellence, "haptic" and 3D excellence, experiential excellence. As a designer, I am not being paid to serve as mere glorified social worker who can draw.
Now this does not mean that designers can or should ignore ethical and political issues. I started the "Ethics of Third World Travel by Motorhome" thread for a reason. As the discussion on that thread evolves and complexifies, I'm hoping to gradually focus on the "design ethics" of Third-World-capable motorhomes.
For instance, I find myself wondering what the "best" Third-World traveling motorhome should look like, in terms of exterior appearance? A motorhome that looks likes a garbage truck, for instance, might be considered "better" because it will tend to blend in with commercial trucks traveling Third-World roads. On the other hand, although a country like India is very poor -- in the rural areas in particular -- even rural Indians have seen lots of shiny new 13 m Euro-buses, if only because Indian bus-transport companies use them. I once took a 20 hour trip on just such a super-bus, complete with frigid-cold AC, and a steady stream of Bollywood movies blaring away on multiple monitors. And no, the coach was not full of westerners. If memory serves, almost everyone else on the bus was middle-class Indian. So a Newell traveling through India would probably not raise many eyebrows, because from a distance the Newell's exterior looks much like a bus. But granted, an unmodified Newell probably could not handle Indian roads.
So sure, ethical issues are important, up to a point. But again I am a designer, not a social worker, and the things that make a given vehicle type or market "interesting" for a designer, are a bit different than the things that social workers find important.
*****************************
2. Why the Expediton-RV market is so compelling
From a design point of view, the off-road expedition-RV market is utterly fascinating, if only because:
(1) It is still mostly a bespoke market. I remember reading somewhere that even Earthroamer has produced only something like 100 vehicles so far, in total.
(2) Because it is still a bespoke market, design solutions have not yet stabilized. There are lots of divergent opinions regarding what the best or ideal offload motorhome might be. There is even argument over whether the thing should be small, medium, or large!
(3) The considerable difference between the Earthroamer "super-truck-camper solution", versus the UniCat or ActionMobil "garbage-truck solution", is a case in point. They address more or less the same market demographic, but their design solutions are divergent.
(4) Even within a single company, a wide range of design solutions have been explored, just in the last decade. UniCat has created Unimog, Zetros, and MAN-based vehicles, and Armadillo the same.
For an aspiring transportation designer, then, it's an exciting market niche. Of course cars have recently become more exciting too, in the last 5 - 10 years or so, because electric has taken off so dramatically. Many top-flight transportation designers working for major car manufacturers (Ford, Mercedes, BMW, etc.) have jumped ship, leaving jobs where they enjoyed seniority and six-figure salaries, in order to join fledging electric start-ups. So all round, it's an exciting time to be a designer of wheeled vehicles. But even still, the expedition RV market-segment strikes me as particularly intriguing, because it is so wide-open, and does not seem to have ossified yet around any "standard" or "best practice" solutions.
*****************************
As for fly-by-wire in an expedition RV, I'll leave it to grizzlyj and egn to weigh in on that one. Egn seems to have a background in electrical engineering, so his response to your proposal might prove most apropos.
Now, to respond to grizzlyj's excellent post..... :chowtime:
All best wishes,
Biotect
The off-road mobile clinic thing has kinda been done already....
Don't know about an 8x8, but a 6x6 Zetros-based mobile rabies clinic is now traveling around India:
See http://www.missionrabies.com/thetruck/ , http://www.autoevolution.com/news-g...-used-for-rabies-control-in-india/138455.html , http://www.autoevolution.com/news/m...e-used-for-rabies-control-in-india-64656.html , http://www.expedition-trucks.com/brokers/mercedes-benz-zetros-6x6-veterinary-hospital , and http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-1130193-1-1622009-1-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html . As for an 8x8 version, one imagines that the U.S. Army has already built any number of mobile field hospitals mountable on 8x8 Oshkosh trucks.
So to be honest, the "mobile clinic" is not that interesting as a vehicle type; or at least it's not that interesting to me. It's a fairly standard design exercise seized upon by any number of MFA students. Blogs that track concept-vehicles are full of "mobile hospital" or "disaster-relief" proposals, no doubt because some designers feel the need to prove themselves socially relevant, and they dread the idea that they might become mere lackeys facilitating capitalist consumption.
*****************************
1. Design is not Glorified Social Work
Now my own politics tend to be center-left: a Euro-style Social Democrat who votes SPD in Germany, and Labor in Britain (I can vote in both countries, when resident). So I am not critiquing this tendency from a right-wing or libertarian perspective. If you want to get a sense of where my politics locate, just check out the "Ethics of Third World Travel by Motorhome" thread, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...rd-World-Travel-by-Motorhome?highlight=ethics . Rather, I am critiquing this tendency as a designer, and as an artist. IMHO, some of the least interesting art is "socially committed" or "politically relevant" art. There is a lot to be said for Art-for-Art's sake. What's wrong with visual experimentation and exploration as an end in itself? It's enjoyable for the explorer, and so too, it tends to be valued more in the long run by the culture (think Impressionism, and almost every other Art "ism" that follows).
I kinda feel the same way about design. As a designer, my central goal should be visual excellence, "haptic" and 3D excellence, experiential excellence. As a designer, I am not being paid to serve as mere glorified social worker who can draw.
Now this does not mean that designers can or should ignore ethical and political issues. I started the "Ethics of Third World Travel by Motorhome" thread for a reason. As the discussion on that thread evolves and complexifies, I'm hoping to gradually focus on the "design ethics" of Third-World-capable motorhomes.
For instance, I find myself wondering what the "best" Third-World traveling motorhome should look like, in terms of exterior appearance? A motorhome that looks likes a garbage truck, for instance, might be considered "better" because it will tend to blend in with commercial trucks traveling Third-World roads. On the other hand, although a country like India is very poor -- in the rural areas in particular -- even rural Indians have seen lots of shiny new 13 m Euro-buses, if only because Indian bus-transport companies use them. I once took a 20 hour trip on just such a super-bus, complete with frigid-cold AC, and a steady stream of Bollywood movies blaring away on multiple monitors. And no, the coach was not full of westerners. If memory serves, almost everyone else on the bus was middle-class Indian. So a Newell traveling through India would probably not raise many eyebrows, because from a distance the Newell's exterior looks much like a bus. But granted, an unmodified Newell probably could not handle Indian roads.
So sure, ethical issues are important, up to a point. But again I am a designer, not a social worker, and the things that make a given vehicle type or market "interesting" for a designer, are a bit different than the things that social workers find important.
*****************************
2. Why the Expediton-RV market is so compelling
From a design point of view, the off-road expedition-RV market is utterly fascinating, if only because:
(1) It is still mostly a bespoke market. I remember reading somewhere that even Earthroamer has produced only something like 100 vehicles so far, in total.
(2) Because it is still a bespoke market, design solutions have not yet stabilized. There are lots of divergent opinions regarding what the best or ideal offload motorhome might be. There is even argument over whether the thing should be small, medium, or large!
(3) The considerable difference between the Earthroamer "super-truck-camper solution", versus the UniCat or ActionMobil "garbage-truck solution", is a case in point. They address more or less the same market demographic, but their design solutions are divergent.
(4) Even within a single company, a wide range of design solutions have been explored, just in the last decade. UniCat has created Unimog, Zetros, and MAN-based vehicles, and Armadillo the same.
For an aspiring transportation designer, then, it's an exciting market niche. Of course cars have recently become more exciting too, in the last 5 - 10 years or so, because electric has taken off so dramatically. Many top-flight transportation designers working for major car manufacturers (Ford, Mercedes, BMW, etc.) have jumped ship, leaving jobs where they enjoyed seniority and six-figure salaries, in order to join fledging electric start-ups. So all round, it's an exciting time to be a designer of wheeled vehicles. But even still, the expedition RV market-segment strikes me as particularly intriguing, because it is so wide-open, and does not seem to have ossified yet around any "standard" or "best practice" solutions.
*****************************
As for fly-by-wire in an expedition RV, I'll leave it to grizzlyj and egn to weigh in on that one. Egn seems to have a background in electrical engineering, so his response to your proposal might prove most apropos.
Now, to respond to grizzlyj's excellent post..... :chowtime:
All best wishes,
Biotect
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That is a cool little truck I could suggest a second, one for each foot :smiley_drive:
Just regarding drive by wire, the Vario Pilot on a U400/500 Mog allows the steering wheel to be either side I think with no physical connection other than wiring. The auto box is remote, and I'm sure braking can be sorted. If LHD and RHD are both possible, then so should remotely driven while on the throne etc
I could suggest a second, one for each foot :smiley_drive:Just regarding drive by wire, the Vario Pilot on a U400/500 Mog allows the steering wheel to be either side I think with no physical connection other than wiring. The auto box is remote, and I'm sure braking can be sorted. If LHD and RHD are both possible, then so should remotely driven while on the throne etc
egn
Adventurer
I have to comment here that a friend visited an offroad show in singapore a few years ago, and visited Armadillo there. The owner openly cofirmed that Armadillo effectively copied the Unicat design. There is no innovation from Armadillo, at least not regarding the vehicle concept.
egn
Adventurer
:wavey::wavey::wavey:
I am not really sure if my answer can be the reference here. :bigbossHL:
Because on one side my company is doing advanced research regarding advanced driver assistance systems and highly autonomous driving for major oems here in Germany. On the other side i decided that I don't want a vehicle base for our expedition RV that contains electronics. Of course, the KAT 1 use a bit of analog electronic for the torque converter control, but as cold war vehicle this is even hardend against EMP. :victory: And I have never heard that it did fail, but I stil have a backup, because I am also a high availability guy. :ylsmoke:
For me it does just make no sense to move a vehicle alone in remote areas in Russia, Asia, Africa and South America, without the ability to repair the vehicle. The technology behind a KAT1 is so simple that every experienced mechanic can make repairs with the appropriate documentation. There are not many special tools necessary and have them with me in an original army tool box.
You will just not find any service center in remote areas. So you have to help yourself or you have to rely on local mechanics. If you go with a modern truck there then you will be lost. The advantage of the old technology is that it is effectively open when you have the service manuals. The repair is now problem then, because broken parts can be at most places within a few days. But with modern vehicles the functionality is contained in numerous ECUs in the vehicle. Diagnostic can be only done with very expensive test systems, that are just not available in remote areas. This leads then to such strange events that technical personal and equipment has to be flown in just for simple repair.
This is the main reason why I like our KAT. It uses simple and very reliable military technology without komplex electronic. It can be repaired everywhere with available tools. Russian trucks like Ural and Kamaz are even simpler and can be repaired with just a large hammer. :hehe:
So sorry, I don't want to see any drive by wire in an expedition vehicle, even I earn my money to develop technology around this components.
Of course, we like comfort in the cabin. So the cabin contains a lot of electrical components. But everything that is important is already redundant or will be redundant in the future:
Everything else important is covered by spare parts. Other components are not essential. To be able to diagnostic problems in the electrical system and keep the impact of a failing component as small S possible, I not only avoided any fancy management solutions, but also decided to avoid products that combine multiple functions, like inverter and charger. The electrical system also isolated from the outside. When there is a mains connection than it is through the two independent cahrgerges with a voltage range from 90-260 V. This all reduces the risk regarding the electrical system considerably.
You may call this all paranoic, but for me the main attribute of an real expedition vehicle is to be able to survive (in comfort :coffeedrink in remote areas, even some component fails. YMMV :wavey:
I am not really sure if my answer can be the reference here. :bigbossHL:
Because on one side my company is doing advanced research regarding advanced driver assistance systems and highly autonomous driving for major oems here in Germany. On the other side i decided that I don't want a vehicle base for our expedition RV that contains electronics. Of course, the KAT 1 use a bit of analog electronic for the torque converter control, but as cold war vehicle this is even hardend against EMP. :victory: And I have never heard that it did fail, but I stil have a backup, because I am also a high availability guy. :ylsmoke:
For me it does just make no sense to move a vehicle alone in remote areas in Russia, Asia, Africa and South America, without the ability to repair the vehicle. The technology behind a KAT1 is so simple that every experienced mechanic can make repairs with the appropriate documentation. There are not many special tools necessary and have them with me in an original army tool box.
You will just not find any service center in remote areas. So you have to help yourself or you have to rely on local mechanics. If you go with a modern truck there then you will be lost. The advantage of the old technology is that it is effectively open when you have the service manuals. The repair is now problem then, because broken parts can be at most places within a few days. But with modern vehicles the functionality is contained in numerous ECUs in the vehicle. Diagnostic can be only done with very expensive test systems, that are just not available in remote areas. This leads then to such strange events that technical personal and equipment has to be flown in just for simple repair.
This is the main reason why I like our KAT. It uses simple and very reliable military technology without komplex electronic. It can be repaired everywhere with available tools. Russian trucks like Ural and Kamaz are even simpler and can be repaired with just a large hammer. :hehe:
So sorry, I don't want to see any drive by wire in an expedition vehicle, even I earn my money to develop technology around this components.
Of course, we like comfort in the cabin. So the cabin contains a lot of electrical components. But everything that is important is already redundant or will be redundant in the future:
- at least 2 independent battery banks (currently 6)
- multiple energy sources (alternator, solar, generator)
- 2 solar charge controlers
- 2 mains chargers
- 2 inverters
- redundant cables, relays
- redundant heating
- redundant pumps
Everything else important is covered by spare parts. Other components are not essential. To be able to diagnostic problems in the electrical system and keep the impact of a failing component as small S possible, I not only avoided any fancy management solutions, but also decided to avoid products that combine multiple functions, like inverter and charger. The electrical system also isolated from the outside. When there is a mains connection than it is through the two independent cahrgerges with a voltage range from 90-260 V. This all reduces the risk regarding the electrical system considerably.
You may call this all paranoic, but for me the main attribute of an real expedition vehicle is to be able to survive (in comfort :coffeedrink
in remote areas, even some component fails. YMMV :wavey:
biotect
Designer
Hi grizzlyj,
Fantastic post, packed full of information!
****************************
1. All-Wheel-Steering, not Cranes
I am slightly dyslexic, so no doubt misremembered “56 mph” as “65 mph”. It was some kind of news flyer I came across a few years back, advertising the latest advances allowing all-terrain cranes to travel fast on paved highways. But you are quite right, most cranes seem designed for 55 mph :bowdown: – see http://www.equipcokuwait.com/Grove.html and http://www.tilindia.in/material/product/imp_allterrain.htm .
This is all a distraction, however, because again, I never proposed using an all-terrain crane as a chassis base! Only brought up cranes because they seemed like excellent examples of all-wheel-steering for 6x6 or 8x8. From the very beginning, imagined rear-axle steering as something that MAN's “modification competence center” would install on a SX-45 chassis. And as you yourself just wrote, Mercedes Unimogs also come with rear-wheel steering as factory-fitted option:
So even relatively short, off-road vehicles like Unimogs -- which tend to be well under 9 m -- will have optional rear-wheel steering, because maneuverability seems to be an issue for some customers.
Everything that you said about the availability of parts, the effects of vehicle length and height on geographic reach, the Mog's portal axle design, overall vehicle weight, etc. etc., was all very well taken. To be quite honest, I haven't been thinking 8x8 at all, but rather, 6x6. And I haven't been thinking 12 m, but rather, 9 m - 10 m, as per egn's KAT.
****************************
2. To Flex or not to Flex....?
So too, I think I will probably follow egn's advice regarding the advantages of a "no-flex" chassis. If you recall, in the post that began this thread, I was still sitting on the fence when I wrote:
To which egn replied:
Perhaps the most important reason why I want to follow egn's advice, is because doing so would be innovative. grizzlyj, I am really grateful for your quick description of your “ideal” expedition vehicle, but what you've described already exists. It's a mid-range UniCat, mounted on a Unimog chassis. As an MFA thesis project, then, what would be the value in simply duplicating what has already been done before?
Furthermore, the main reason my concept-vehicle might prove interesting, is precisely because it would feature a fully integrated interior design, of the sort that egn fondly remembers. As well as an exterior that would be “Euro-campsite friendly”, in the same way that Earthroamers are “American-campsite friendly” . But an exterior that also has maximum positive influence on experiences of polyvalent, multi-message encounter with locals in the Third World -- see “The Ethics of Third World Travel by Motorhome” for an explanation, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...rd-World-Travel-by-Motorhome?highlight=ethics .
****************************
3. System Simplicity
Moe: Egn's description above of his KAT, and the desirability of simple systems that can be easily repaired in remote areas, kind of settles things for me. Non-flex chassis and no fly-by-wire seems the way to go. The only question now is whether one has to buy an ancient cold-war KAT chassis to achieve this level of systems simplicity?
Egn, do you think the newest SX-45s are designed to be equally electronics-free and reparable? There is the engine of course (to be discussed next), but also mechanisms like the steering, drive train, brakes, pneumatic suspension, etc.. Your KAT does at least have hydraulic power-steering, right? But what about leveling?
As you no doubt already know, the latest thing in both the conventional and off-road market is air-suspension that also handles leveling -- see for instance http://actionmobil.com/images/pdf/journal/Actionmobil-Journal-2010-3-En.pdf , http://www.hwhcorp.com/activeaircontrol3.html , http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml35458.pdf , http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml45343.pdf , http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml39976r.pdf , and http://www.hwhcorp.com/activeaircontrol3.html . Your KAT probably doesn't have this, so how do you handle leveling? With conventional jacks?
The SX-45 brochure advertises "optional hydro-pneumatic suspension with integrated, regulated load-dependent shock absorbers and extremely long spring travel for top driving stability under thetoughest conditions. It is equipped with a height adjustment and can be locked in any position." Would you get something like this, or would you avoid it?
What about tyre inflation/deflation, for desert driving? The SX-45 can be equipped with "a pressure control system which permits controlled deflating and inflating of the tyres even during driving. The tyre pressure can thus be adjusted according to the surface conditions within no time at all." Or what about the SX-45's braking: "On command the dual-circuit air brake system with the electronic brake system EBS responds effectively. It also has ABS, with aspecial off-road logic for reliable use on loose ground. The brake pedal actuated EVB engine brake, relieves the wheel brake andprovides additional safety." See:
If it turns out that a new SX-45 chassis is too "hi-tech" for your taste, would you look to Tatra instead?
****************************
4. Quick SOR draft-sketch
Summarizing thus far:
 MAN SX-45 6x6 base chassis, with rigid box-frame
 All-wheel-steering (if mechanically robust and near fool-proof)
 Total length: 9 – 10 m
 Fully integrated cab/body design
 Target demographic: same as 3-axle UniCat and ActionMobil vehicles
 "Go anywhere" in the Third World and First World
 RV park friendly
 Encounter-enabler - :friday:
All best wishes,
Biotect
Fantastic post, packed full of information!
****************************
1. All-Wheel-Steering, not Cranes
I am slightly dyslexic, so no doubt misremembered “56 mph” as “65 mph”. It was some kind of news flyer I came across a few years back, advertising the latest advances allowing all-terrain cranes to travel fast on paved highways. But you are quite right, most cranes seem designed for 55 mph :bowdown: – see http://www.equipcokuwait.com/Grove.html and http://www.tilindia.in/material/product/imp_allterrain.htm .
This is all a distraction, however, because again, I never proposed using an all-terrain crane as a chassis base! Only brought up cranes because they seemed like excellent examples of all-wheel-steering for 6x6 or 8x8. From the very beginning, imagined rear-axle steering as something that MAN's “modification competence center” would install on a SX-45 chassis. And as you yourself just wrote, Mercedes Unimogs also come with rear-wheel steering as factory-fitted option:
So even relatively short, off-road vehicles like Unimogs -- which tend to be well under 9 m -- will have optional rear-wheel steering, because maneuverability seems to be an issue for some customers.
Everything that you said about the availability of parts, the effects of vehicle length and height on geographic reach, the Mog's portal axle design, overall vehicle weight, etc. etc., was all very well taken. To be quite honest, I haven't been thinking 8x8 at all, but rather, 6x6. And I haven't been thinking 12 m, but rather, 9 m - 10 m, as per egn's KAT.
****************************
2. To Flex or not to Flex....?
So too, I think I will probably follow egn's advice regarding the advantages of a "no-flex" chassis. If you recall, in the post that began this thread, I was still sitting on the fence when I wrote:
To which egn replied:
Perhaps the most important reason why I want to follow egn's advice, is because doing so would be innovative. grizzlyj, I am really grateful for your quick description of your “ideal” expedition vehicle, but what you've described already exists. It's a mid-range UniCat, mounted on a Unimog chassis. As an MFA thesis project, then, what would be the value in simply duplicating what has already been done before?
Furthermore, the main reason my concept-vehicle might prove interesting, is precisely because it would feature a fully integrated interior design, of the sort that egn fondly remembers. As well as an exterior that would be “Euro-campsite friendly”, in the same way that Earthroamers are “American-campsite friendly” . But an exterior that also has maximum positive influence on experiences of polyvalent, multi-message encounter with locals in the Third World -- see “The Ethics of Third World Travel by Motorhome” for an explanation, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...rd-World-Travel-by-Motorhome?highlight=ethics .
****************************
3. System Simplicity
Moe: Egn's description above of his KAT, and the desirability of simple systems that can be easily repaired in remote areas, kind of settles things for me. Non-flex chassis and no fly-by-wire seems the way to go. The only question now is whether one has to buy an ancient cold-war KAT chassis to achieve this level of systems simplicity?
Egn, do you think the newest SX-45s are designed to be equally electronics-free and reparable? There is the engine of course (to be discussed next), but also mechanisms like the steering, drive train, brakes, pneumatic suspension, etc.. Your KAT does at least have hydraulic power-steering, right? But what about leveling?
As you no doubt already know, the latest thing in both the conventional and off-road market is air-suspension that also handles leveling -- see for instance http://actionmobil.com/images/pdf/journal/Actionmobil-Journal-2010-3-En.pdf , http://www.hwhcorp.com/activeaircontrol3.html , http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml35458.pdf , http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml45343.pdf , http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml39976r.pdf , and http://www.hwhcorp.com/activeaircontrol3.html . Your KAT probably doesn't have this, so how do you handle leveling? With conventional jacks?
The SX-45 brochure advertises "optional hydro-pneumatic suspension with integrated, regulated load-dependent shock absorbers and extremely long spring travel for top driving stability under thetoughest conditions. It is equipped with a height adjustment and can be locked in any position." Would you get something like this, or would you avoid it?
What about tyre inflation/deflation, for desert driving? The SX-45 can be equipped with "a pressure control system which permits controlled deflating and inflating of the tyres even during driving. The tyre pressure can thus be adjusted according to the surface conditions within no time at all." Or what about the SX-45's braking: "On command the dual-circuit air brake system with the electronic brake system EBS responds effectively. It also has ABS, with aspecial off-road logic for reliable use on loose ground. The brake pedal actuated EVB engine brake, relieves the wheel brake andprovides additional safety." See:
If it turns out that a new SX-45 chassis is too "hi-tech" for your taste, would you look to Tatra instead?
****************************
4. Quick SOR draft-sketch
Summarizing thus far:
 MAN SX-45 6x6 base chassis, with rigid box-frame
 All-wheel-steering (if mechanically robust and near fool-proof)
 Total length: 9 – 10 m
 Fully integrated cab/body design
 Target demographic: same as 3-axle UniCat and ActionMobil vehicles
 "Go anywhere" in the Third World and First World
 RV park friendly
 Encounter-enabler - :friday:
All best wishes,
Biotect
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biotect
Designer
Egn,
Great little truck, now it just needs wings to fly…...
*****************************************
But seriously, grizzlyj, moe, and egn, do you know what the ultimate RV would be?
A TARDIS:
Egn, if you're not familiar with this, it's the vehicle used by “Doctor Who”, in the long-running British sci-fi series of the same name – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who . I'm a big fan, if only because the plot-lines are clever and convoluted, and the lighting-fast British banter is great.
Doctor Who flies through space and time in a spaceship – the TARDIS – that doesn't even look like a spaceship. Instead, it looks like a police-box. But thanks to advanced Time-Lord quantum engineering, the TARDIS is small on the outside, but huge on the inside, complete with swimming pool, multi-story library, and miles of corridors. It's the ultimate “home away from home”, a universe unto itself that, nonetheless, is completely mobile.
Comes with Jenna Coleman, too.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenna_Coleman , http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1923915776/nm1982510?ref_=nmmd_md_nxt , http://www.imdb.com/media/rm974956288/nm1982510?ref_=nmmd_md_nxt .
***********************************
Now I was wondering about Hymers. The biggest Hymer seems to be 8.5 m long, but grizzlyj, you said that most Euro-pitches are 5.99 m – see http://www.hymer.com/medien/pdf/1348660555-12090220_14_UK-KL_II.pdf :
There is clearly a market for these big Hymers, otherwise they would not exist. And it's not merely a bespoke, custom market: Hymer is not Variomobil, Ketterer, or Volkner. Enough people are buying 8.5 m Hymers to justify their production. So where and how do these 8.5 m vehicles fare at RV parks in Europe?
If neither of you knows the answer to this question, no worries. But thought I should ask, just in case you might know.
All best wishes,
Biotect
Great little truck, now it just needs wings to fly…...
*****************************************
But seriously, grizzlyj, moe, and egn, do you know what the ultimate RV would be?
A TARDIS:
Egn, if you're not familiar with this, it's the vehicle used by “Doctor Who”, in the long-running British sci-fi series of the same name – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who . I'm a big fan, if only because the plot-lines are clever and convoluted, and the lighting-fast British banter is great.
Doctor Who flies through space and time in a spaceship – the TARDIS – that doesn't even look like a spaceship. Instead, it looks like a police-box. But thanks to advanced Time-Lord quantum engineering, the TARDIS is small on the outside, but huge on the inside, complete with swimming pool, multi-story library, and miles of corridors. It's the ultimate “home away from home”, a universe unto itself that, nonetheless, is completely mobile.
Comes with Jenna Coleman, too....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenna_Coleman , http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1923915776/nm1982510?ref_=nmmd_md_nxt , http://www.imdb.com/media/rm974956288/nm1982510?ref_=nmmd_md_nxt .***********************************
Now I was wondering about Hymers. The biggest Hymer seems to be 8.5 m long, but grizzlyj, you said that most Euro-pitches are 5.99 m – see http://www.hymer.com/medien/pdf/1348660555-12090220_14_UK-KL_II.pdf :
There is clearly a market for these big Hymers, otherwise they would not exist. And it's not merely a bespoke, custom market: Hymer is not Variomobil, Ketterer, or Volkner. Enough people are buying 8.5 m Hymers to justify their production. So where and how do these 8.5 m vehicles fare at RV parks in Europe?
If neither of you knows the answer to this question, no worries. But thought I should ask, just in case you might know.
All best wishes,
Biotect
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charlieaarons
Explorer
That is a cool little truck
Just regarding drive by wire, the Vario Pilot on a U400/500 Mog allows the steering wheel to be either side I think with no physical connection other than wiring. The auto box is remote, and I'm sure braking can be sorted. If LHD and RHD are both possible, then so should remotely driven while on the throne etc
Just for the record, there IS a mechanical connection for the steering with VarioPilot.
Charlie
egn
Adventurer
The SX45 uses the HEPLEX System introduced with KAT1 A1.1. This system is a pure hydraulic control without any electronic. I would take it anytime if it would affordable to me. But for the original HEPLEX I would have to spend about $30.000 for the conversion.
Air suspension would be also ok to me, if it is adapted to offroad use by having large way of travel. And you have to keep some spares. I have also some spring coils as spare with me.
The braking system has an emergency mode that takes over when the electronic fails, so no problem for me.
From Hymer and others there are a lot of larger camper models longer than 8 m available. Most time they will overnight at the special camper parking spaces, that are large enough and don't use camping spots. Often this larger RVs are used by retired people living part time in them. This models are known as Liners here in Germany.
http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/liner-plus/beschreibung/
http://www.phoenix-reisemobile.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=12&lang=1
They are costing about 100.000 - 300.000 Euro and are located between the models more targeted to families and the specially build coach models build by companies like Volkner.
They try to keep weight below 7.5 t (metric), because owners of the original german class 3 driving license are allowed to drive vehicles up to 7.5 t (EU C1E). For everything heavier the EU C/CE license has to be made. My wife and me made the C driving license - after we bought the KAT.
But now, most people make only the B/BE license, which is limited to 3.5 t. This is a serious problem for the RV market, because a C license will cost at least 2.500 € extra and a lot of people hesitate to go again to the driving school. The EU would need a cheaper special driving license, that covers the large RV market, without the more professional driver oriented content of the truck license C/CE.
The RV manufacturers have responded to this driving license issue be building more smaller RVs up to 3.5 t, but they are constantly in risk to be overloaded. And building very light is expensive and not always good for a long lifetime. Now the new extension B96 allows driving up to 4.25 t. This helps a little bit to ease the pressure, but it is still to low.
The best would be to drop the unnecessary C1/C1E class and allow again driving of vehicles of up to 7.5 t with the normal B/BE driver license for private use. For professional use the same training should apply as for the C/C1 license. I have the feeling that a lot of driving license categories were introduced to subsidize the driving school business. It should be possible to upgrade an owned license to a higher category just by learning the additional items, but in reality it is that you do an expensive complete new training (nearly), just like a driving beginner.
Air suspension would be also ok to me, if it is adapted to offroad use by having large way of travel. And you have to keep some spares. I have also some spring coils as spare with me.
The braking system has an emergency mode that takes over when the electronic fails, so no problem for me.
From Hymer and others there are a lot of larger camper models longer than 8 m available. Most time they will overnight at the special camper parking spaces, that are large enough and don't use camping spots. Often this larger RVs are used by retired people living part time in them. This models are known as Liners here in Germany.
http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/liner-plus/beschreibung/
http://www.phoenix-reisemobile.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=12&lang=1
They are costing about 100.000 - 300.000 Euro and are located between the models more targeted to families and the specially build coach models build by companies like Volkner.
They try to keep weight below 7.5 t (metric), because owners of the original german class 3 driving license are allowed to drive vehicles up to 7.5 t (EU C1E). For everything heavier the EU C/CE license has to be made. My wife and me made the C driving license - after we bought the KAT.
But now, most people make only the B/BE license, which is limited to 3.5 t. This is a serious problem for the RV market, because a C license will cost at least 2.500 € extra and a lot of people hesitate to go again to the driving school. The EU would need a cheaper special driving license, that covers the large RV market, without the more professional driver oriented content of the truck license C/CE.
The RV manufacturers have responded to this driving license issue be building more smaller RVs up to 3.5 t, but they are constantly in risk to be overloaded. And building very light is expensive and not always good for a long lifetime. Now the new extension B96 allows driving up to 4.25 t. This helps a little bit to ease the pressure, but it is still to low.
The best would be to drop the unnecessary C1/C1E class and allow again driving of vehicles of up to 7.5 t with the normal B/BE driver license for private use. For professional use the same training should apply as for the C/C1 license. I have the feeling that a lot of driving license categories were introduced to subsidize the driving school business. It should be possible to upgrade an owned license to a higher category just by learning the additional items, but in reality it is that you do an expensive complete new training (nearly), just like a driving beginner.
biotect
Designer
Again, a wealth of information – many thanks. Interesting observations about RV driver's licenses, and good to know that a 9 – 10 m motorhome will do fine in Euro RV parks.
Only one question remains, re tyre inflation/deflation for desert driving, i.e. CTIS, "Central Tire Inflation System"; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_tire_inflation_system and http://auto.howstuffworks.com/self-inflating-tire2.htm . The MAN SX-45 brochure states that it can be equipped with "a pressure control system which permits controlled deflating and inflating of the tyres even during driving. The tyre pressure can thus be adjusted according to the surface conditions within no time at all."
Mercedes offers something similar, for instance, for its G-wagen G63 AMG 6x6 – see http://www5.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/the-automotive-declaration-of-independence-g63-amg-6x6/ , http://www.topgear.com/uk/mercedes-benz/g-class/road-test/6x6-driven , http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mercedes-benz/g63-amg-6x6 , http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2013/3/1/Mercedes-Reveals-G63-AMG-6x6-7713208/ , http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130228/carreviews/130229780 , and http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/autosblogpost.aspx?post=4d8da24b-54e8-4e61-87f5-99daafd5682b :
“An onboard compressor with four separate high-pressure air tanks fitted along the sides of the underbody allow you to adjust the tire pressure, taking just 20 seconds to increase from a sand-friendly 7.3 psi up to the 26 psi required for on-road use.”
The G63 AMG 6x6 is based on the G320 CDI 6x6 purpose-built for the Australian military, but I don't know if CTIS comes standard for the military version, too. For a while I've been looking for more information about the military version of the 6x6, but any google-searches tend to get drowned out by articles celebrating the civilian G63 AMG 6x6. So far, I've only been able to find an older PDF about the 280 CDI 6x6, as well as the standard Mercedes military G-wagen brochures -- see http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...dQzCwM7AGSVvDAxbXlHKWIQ&bvm=bv.64542518,d.Yms and http://www.mb-military-vehicles.com/fileadmin/downloads/G_ClassMilitary_en.pdf . Neither one mentions anything about tire pressure control.
But note that the “Entdecker” brochure describing conversion of a 4x4 G-wagen states “Touch screen programmable tire air pressure and temperature monitor is also part of the optional available accessories” – see http://www.mercedes-g-entdecker.com/images_shen/pdf/ENTDECKER_en.pdf .
Built-in, automated tire pressure-control seems like a very useful system to have on the MAN SX-45, but would CTIS be too complicated and a potential headache?
Only one question remains, re tyre inflation/deflation for desert driving, i.e. CTIS, "Central Tire Inflation System"; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_tire_inflation_system and http://auto.howstuffworks.com/self-inflating-tire2.htm . The MAN SX-45 brochure states that it can be equipped with "a pressure control system which permits controlled deflating and inflating of the tyres even during driving. The tyre pressure can thus be adjusted according to the surface conditions within no time at all."
Mercedes offers something similar, for instance, for its G-wagen G63 AMG 6x6 – see http://www5.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/the-automotive-declaration-of-independence-g63-amg-6x6/ , http://www.topgear.com/uk/mercedes-benz/g-class/road-test/6x6-driven , http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mercedes-benz/g63-amg-6x6 , http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2013/3/1/Mercedes-Reveals-G63-AMG-6x6-7713208/ , http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130228/carreviews/130229780 , and http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/autosblogpost.aspx?post=4d8da24b-54e8-4e61-87f5-99daafd5682b :
“An onboard compressor with four separate high-pressure air tanks fitted along the sides of the underbody allow you to adjust the tire pressure, taking just 20 seconds to increase from a sand-friendly 7.3 psi up to the 26 psi required for on-road use.”
The G63 AMG 6x6 is based on the G320 CDI 6x6 purpose-built for the Australian military, but I don't know if CTIS comes standard for the military version, too. For a while I've been looking for more information about the military version of the 6x6, but any google-searches tend to get drowned out by articles celebrating the civilian G63 AMG 6x6. So far, I've only been able to find an older PDF about the 280 CDI 6x6, as well as the standard Mercedes military G-wagen brochures -- see http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...dQzCwM7AGSVvDAxbXlHKWIQ&bvm=bv.64542518,d.Yms and http://www.mb-military-vehicles.com/fileadmin/downloads/G_ClassMilitary_en.pdf . Neither one mentions anything about tire pressure control.
But note that the “Entdecker” brochure describing conversion of a 4x4 G-wagen states “Touch screen programmable tire air pressure and temperature monitor is also part of the optional available accessories” – see http://www.mercedes-g-entdecker.com/images_shen/pdf/ENTDECKER_en.pdf .
Built-in, automated tire pressure-control seems like a very useful system to have on the MAN SX-45, but would CTIS be too complicated and a potential headache?
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biotect
Designer
egn,
Just thought of a few possible names for the vehicle, inspired by your posting re Phoenix, Concorde, etc:
"Earth-Liner", "Global-Liner", or perhaps "TerraLiner".
The last one seems most on-track, because it's latinate, and works just as well in German as English. But it's already used as the name of a bike -- see http://www.bikepedia.com/quickbike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=2004&brand=Koga+Miyata&model=TerraLiner+Oval .
All best,
Biotect
Just thought of a few possible names for the vehicle, inspired by your posting re Phoenix, Concorde, etc:
"Earth-Liner", "Global-Liner", or perhaps "TerraLiner".
The last one seems most on-track, because it's latinate, and works just as well in German as English. But it's already used as the name of a bike -- see http://www.bikepedia.com/quickbike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=2004&brand=Koga+Miyata&model=TerraLiner+Oval
.All best,
Biotect
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egn
Adventurer
CTIS is a nice feature. It is standard on most military vehicles in east-block countries. I have never seen it on the german mainstream military vehicles. I once heard that MAN had a system forthe KAT, but it was to complicated and had to problems with the sealing.
There are after market solutions available, like from PTG. But most of them lead the air around the tyre and are at risk to be hit by something. So CTIS makes only sense for me if the air comes through the center of the axle.
As you have time when you are on vacation or a long trip, it is no problem to air down and up manually. As truck has air available anyway, it needs no extra compressor. Poor mans CTIS is to have an air connection at every wheel, combined with thicker valves and a central pressure regulator to set the required tyre pressure. Then you just connect the tyre valves to their air connector, set the pressure and everything goes automatically within reasonable time. When finished you remove the connection and drive on.
Quote from PTG website:
I don't have such a system yet, but I will implement that much cheaper with regular air components in the future. I didn't have to deflate the tyres of the KAT yet. The normal pressure together with 6x6 and differential locks where good enough for any situation we came in, even in deep sand in Russia or Turkey, or in soft and muddy grass elsewhere. :victory:
There are after market solutions available, like from PTG. But most of them lead the air around the tyre and are at risk to be hit by something. So CTIS makes only sense for me if the air comes through the center of the axle.
As you have time when you are on vacation or a long trip, it is no problem to air down and up manually. As truck has air available anyway, it needs no extra compressor. Poor mans CTIS is to have an air connection at every wheel, combined with thicker valves and a central pressure regulator to set the required tyre pressure. Then you just connect the tyre valves to their air connector, set the pressure and everything goes automatically within reasonable time. When finished you remove the connection and drive on.
Quote from PTG website:
I don't have such a system yet, but I will implement that much cheaper with regular air components in the future. I didn't have to deflate the tyres of the KAT yet. The normal pressure together with 6x6 and differential locks where good enough for any situation we came in, even in deep sand in Russia or Turkey, or in soft and muddy grass elsewhere. :victory:
:friday:
The little list of my ideals is in no way covered by any Mog, since to seat 4 you need a double cab, on a square cab Mog that leaves a 3.1m rear platform, not ideal for four to sleep and eat. (although you could stretch that with a slightly bigger overhang but it would still be a squash). Apart from the portal axles which a fair few travellers have had problems with parts while away, and the initial purchase price. So more simple axles and a lower cost would be needed both for me and to eat into a much bigger RV market.
If that same chassis had an integrated cab you would have a much better chance of accommodating 4 people in a camper, and making use of the length taken by the bonnet on a custom cab would also help a great deal. You could also stay half the weight of a MAN KAT 6x6, and half the fuel consumption.
5.99m is "often" the standard camper space, so smaller than that doesn't (I would think) increase choice in campsites, Aires, Stellplatz etc but longer than that is more likely to require booking. Many UK campsites are booked up over school holidays the year before. So freely roaming as you wish day to day in a bigger camper will be harder, not impossible! But no problem if you always prebook over wintering in southern Spain for your 9m tag axle year in, year out, as many do. Maybe you should search for pitch availability for 9m campers?
In talking about electronics, I wonder how many of the potential buyers of your design would pay £500000+ for a design built on an old chassis, since any new chassis will have more complication?
EGN I certainly like your approach to your lovely truck
egn
Adventurer
May be in the UK it is hard to find a place overnight, because all have to use campsites. But in continental europe this is much easier, at least in the countries we visited. There are thousands of official pure RV places and many more sports where you can just stay with your vehicle. We are touring Europe by 8+m long RV since 2002, always during school holidays because one of our daughter is still going to school.
The official and unofficial RV places are listed in the internet, printed and are available as POIs for navigation systems. Here is just a short list:
http://www.campercontact.de/
http://wohnmobilstellplaetze.wordpress.com/2009/07/18/datenbank-wohnmobilstellplatze/
http://www.campingfrance.com/DE/Tou...e-Fuehrer-der-Wohnmobilstellplaetze-in-Europa!
http://www.promobil.de/stellplatz-145.html
http://www.stellplaetze-kostenlos.de/
http://home.arcor.de/telbus/womo-sp/index.html
http://www.camperado.de/stellplaetze/
http://www.amazon.de/wohnmobilstell...e=1&rh=n:186606,k:wohnmobilstellplätze europa
You should clearly differentiate between camp sites and RV sites. Camp sites have a very limited availability and are really tight during high season. Normally you go there to stay a week or more. For this you get and pay a lot of comfort.
Most people using an RV use a totally different mode of traveling. They stay only 1-2 nights most of the time at a place. Sometimes RV sites have limit regarding nights you can stay. You have then to move on. A lot of the RV sites cost nothing or only a small amount. In exchange you don't have the amenities you can enjoy at a caravan park. On most places you are even not allowed to do camping by placing any chairs next to your RV. And often you have no power hookup. To be able to use RV sites your vehicle has to be self sufficient at least a few days with fresh water, grey and black water and electric power. But there also a lot of charge and discharge stations available.
Beside this official RV sites there are a large number of possibilities to park your RV on the continent. We stopped at supermarkets, sport centers, rest areas, wine yards, grave yards, restaurants, farms, ... There are endless possibilities, if you ask the local people. This is also a great chance to get in contact with local people and have a great time.
I know that this isn't possible in the UK, because of the law there. We have also seen similar limits in Ireland, but it worked fine most of the time. In other cases, we just moved on to more guest friendly places and left our money there. May be the RV campers in UK should try to force a change of the legislation to allow something like pure RV sites. Ten years ago the number of RV sites in Germany was not very high. But it exploded because especially the small villages discovered that RVs bring a lot of money into the community. There was once a study that on average about 75 € are spend by RVs per vehicle per night. And you only have to provide a quiet overnight parking site with minimum facilities, like a garbage box.
So when RVs are really used in the sense of how they are called in Germany - "Reisemobil" - then you will always have the chance to find a suitable overnight parking in continental Europe, even you have a larger vehicle.