TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[Haf-E]

The i8 Hybrid BMW is sort of both a serial hybrid and a parallel hybrid - the front axle is electric drive only (serial) but the rear wheels are powered by either the engine, electric motor or both (parallel) .

BMW i8 shows how good such a parallel hybrid can work.

 

[biotect]

nick,

Many thanks for that. Your candid commentary is excellent, and much appreciated. The "disconcerting" photos are terrific as well.

As I wrote, this problem was vexing me for months. But once I started thinking about serial hybrids, and once dwh proposed the engine+generator located on a "front slide-out", everything fell into place. As an argument for serial instead of parallel hybrid, this may not hold much force with those who have no problem with a pusher engine placement. For instance, egn has often advocated pusher engine placement in the past. But for design reasons I want a rear deck, "fan tail" swing-outs, floor-to-ceiling sliding doors, and a spectacular expanse of horizontal Art Deco windowing across the back of the TerraLiner.

The first image is a very rough doodle I sketched over a year ago; the remaining images are the various sources of design inspiration.









So for me, "overall" design considerations are important, too, not just engineering considerations. And I clearly indicated interest in a rear deck at the very beginning of the thread, and any number of times since then.....:coffeedrink:

Ergo, no parallel hybrid, at least for me.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[biotect]

For a project like yours, I wouldn't even consider an external roll cage - a.k.a., "Rhino Bars". Too ugly, too much aerodynamic laminar flow disruption, and not really needed anyway.

A couple of beefy front and rear bumpers, and perhaps a few strategically placed brush guards should be adequate protection for the bodywork. The structure itself protected by the ribs and stringers of the bodywork, like the pics you've posted of buses.

I doubt if anyone is going to tip your truck over on its side. And if they do...they'll probably just ship the truck somewhere to get it fixed and catch a flight home.

OR...

You could include an internal cage into the body, and have attachment points so that protection bars or plates could be bolted through the body to the cage, so that the force of external hits would be transferred to the cage. I'm picturing something like I saw on a pic of a modern Airstream trailer, though perhaps not as large:


View attachment 261074

dwh,

Superb advice, and much appreciated.

Those attachment plates on Airstream trailers are to protect the easily-dented aluminum body from rocks on the road. They can then be replaced as needed. But dwh, your habit of lateral, "out of the box", thinking has generated a wonderful, much more beautiful solution than an external roll cage. The rear of the vehicle could have "super-bumpers" that resemble these Airstream protection plates. Or, the rear corners of the motorhome that are likeliest to hit a tree when backing up would not be carbon fiber, but rather, would be a titanium roll cage.....

I suppose what's really desired in the back is not just shock-absorbing "horizontal" bumpers, but also shock-absorbing "vertical bumpers" as well, on the sides, and the top. I could not find any good images of the thing I have in mind, but given the perennial problem of backing up trucks into loading docks that have angled drive-down pavements (i.e. the truck does not back up on a flat, horizontal surface, but rather on a surface that's angled down), there must exist products on the market that are, in effect, "vertical bumpers", or "top of truck" bumpers. I don't know what such products are called. So unless someone with a background in trucking who is reading this (optimusprime?) can give me a name to search in google, it may take me some time to find illustrative images.

The only things I've been able to find, so far, are illustrations of loading dock bumpers/seals. These are bumpers located on the loading dock itself, that also function as seals to keep out the elements once the truck is docked -- see http://www.rotaryproductsinc.com/inflatable-dock-seals.html , http://www.kokeinc.com/dock_equip/120_truck_shelter.html , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_dock :






But you get the general idea. I agree completely that piping everywhere as per Romuald Koperski's Siberian MAN KAT or the Orangewerk vehicle is not really necessary, and that an internal frame, as illustrated in those images of bus space-frames, posted earlier in the thread, would be best. But for the problem of backing up specifically, what's wanted is not so much piping that merely transfers force to created damage elsewhere, but rather, proper shock-absorbing bumpers running around the entire edge of the back square of the vehicle.....

It's really LoRoad's encounter with a tree when backing up in the dark that concerns me the most, because I can imagine this as by far the most common type of accident.

But: with that said, it would be really good to know what kinds of accident are most common for mainstream motorhomes in general; and expedition motorhomes in particular. If anyone reading this knows the answers, please post!!

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[dwh]

Dock bumpers.

https://www.google.com/images?q=doc...0.msedr...0...1ac.1.34.img..2.0.0.sFblWrE2YQI

 

[optimusprime]

Dock bumpers??!
Hi Biotect, good to see you're back.

Most commercial trucks have large rubber 'halfpipe' ( for a better word) bolted to the back of the vehicle.
Now bear in mind these are commercial vehicles that are built to standard specs, loading bays are of a standard design and size,and on your HGV test you have to do a reverse into a simulated bay,without hitting anything!!
The bumpers are there mainly to avoid damage to the loading dock if the vehicle backs into it to hard.
A lot of trucks now have reversing cameras and sensors.
( i have often wondered why reversing lights, back up lights in US parlance, are just a couple of not really bright lamps low down on the rear bumper/ fender. Some decent reversing lights should be incoporated into the design!)

Now on the question of bodywork protection.
Yes an external cage will protect the bodywork from tree branches etc, but as has been said, it could cause twisting elsewhere.
Then again, if you hit anything hard enough, it will break!

 

[optimusprime]

Hi NeverEnough,

Excellent summary of arguments for "mongo IS" and 6x6, and a frank, candid admission that "turtling" is a potential problem. Why is lifting the middle axle on ordinary paved roads so critical for you? It has come up a few times in the thread. Egn was against a lifting axle, and he drives his 6x6 everywhere:





So why would lifting the second axle be important for you? Just reduced fuel consumption, or additional reasons? As things are panning out, it will indeed prove possible for the TerraLiner to weigh 18 tons or less -- after all, Peter Thompson's Mañana weighs this much, and Mañana is 10.74 m long (see http://www.thompsons.au.com/motorhome/ ), and was not constructed out of carbon fiber and titanium....:sombrero:

So again, just curious why you and a few others think that lifting one axle for road driving is so critically important.

All best wishes,



Biotect

Not critically important, but a nice feature to have.
Less wear on tyres,(as long as the tyres not raised have sufficient load ratings)
Less tyre noise when travelling on concrete roads for long distances.
If you can enable all wheels to be able to be lifted individually,then changing wheels would be quicker!
Saving on fuel as wheels not needed to be driven,plus less friction.

 

[biotect]

All,

Here is a really great video of a wide range of trucks having fun: Magirus, MAN, Tatra, Unimog, IFA, etc.

Campo, about 2:35 into the video is a perfect example of what appears to be a Magirus truck "turtling". It has gotten stuck on the peak of a hill because its breakover angle was insufficient, i.e. because its inter-axle distance was too great:




Again, for breakover angle, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakover_angle . Has this ever happened to you in your 4x4? Do you know of anyone to whom it has happened? For me, this seems to be one of the strongest arguments in favor of a 6x6, because with three axles instead of two, the inter-axle distance could be minimized for a vehicle 9.5 or 10 m long.

All best wishes,


Biotect

[I addressed this question about turtling to campo, but NeverEnough kindly replied:]

Yes, in a jeep, truck, atv and even motorcycle, but not in my RV. There's something "impractical" about putting several hundred K at risk trying to get to a campsite! So I'm just not too concerned with center lift or a lot of other stuff, because I just want my slide-outs (not mention doors and windows) to work after bouncing down rough roads for hundreds of miles- which is much more difficult than it might sound.

So what is my argument for IS? It's faster over rough roads, and time is valuable. Being able to travel just a little faster without inflicting unwanted (and expensive) wear and tear on a trick camper can add a lot of value to the journey. My rig does great on washboard at high speed because of the huge wheels. It would do even better with a mongo IS. And I'd pick up a few more miles per hour on the ruts and cobble, which is what really slows you down. Sure, there are occasional tricky spots that require good angles and strong construction, but I take it slow and I'm not afraid to back up, turn around, and find another way. As for 6x6, I like the idea for the redundancy, floatation, traction, even for the angles to get in and out of a wash or stream ford. But I'd like it a lot more if one pair could lift for the inevitable 90% of travel on paved roads (meaning a rig light enough to be well within spec on just 4 wheels).

Hi NeverEnough,

Excellent summary of arguments for "mongo IS" and 6x6, and a frank, candid admission that "turtling" is a potential problem. Why is lifting the middle axle on ordinary paved roads so critical for you? It has come up a few times in the thread. Egn was against a lifting axle, and he drives his 6x6 everywhere:

A lift axle would certainly reduce fuel consumption, but the ride will probably not be as comfortable as with 3 axles on road, as the suspension has to be harder at same weight.

So why would lifting the second axle be important for you? Just reduced fuel consumption, or additional reasons? As things are panning out, it will indeed prove possible for the TerraLiner to weigh 18 tons or less -- after all, Peter Thompson's Mañanaweighs this much, and Mañana is 10.74 m long (see http://www.thompsons.au.com/motorhome/ ), and was not constructed out of carbon fiber and titanium....:sombrero:

So again, just curious why you and a few others think that lifting one axle for road driving is so critically important.

All best wishes,



Biotect

Not critically important, but a nice feature to have.
Less wear on tyres,(as long as the tyres not raised have sufficient load ratings)
Less tyre noise when travelling on concrete roads for long distances.

If you can enable all wheels to be able to be lifted individually, then changing wheels would be quicker!

Saving on fuel as wheels not needed to be driven,plus less friction.

Hi optimusprime,

That is an interesting idea! :exclaim: ..:bowdown:

I reconstructed the whole sequence of posts above, so that the general line of discussion is completely clear to everyone.

I am still not 100 % certain about the overall weight issue. If the TerraLiner is over 18 tons, then all six wheels on the road at all times would prove legally necessary.

But even if 6x6 on the road proves legally necessary when driving, having individual tire-lifting capability for all 6 wheels would still be very desirable, for precisely the reason you just gave. Given that the TerraLiner will be a 6x6, if each wheel has Independent Suspension and independently controllable hydraulics, you are right, wheels could be lifted individually for a tire change, or even just a tire fix. And that would be very, very convenient.....:sombrero:

Furthermore, come to think about it, I wonder how more ordinary big MAN-KATs like egn's Blue Thunder with straight axles do a tire change?

egn?

Or optimusprime: when your big commercial truck blows a wheel, what do you do? How do you change a tire? Do you have a monster-sized jack? Would such a jack work in the middle of the desert, on soft sandy terrain? Or on a relatively soft earth surface?

Note that even in a very ordinary straight-axle 4x4 MAN KAT, with the right hydraulics the two front wheels could also lift independently:





See http://www.kley-mobile-werkstatt.de/ueber-mich/ , http://www.kley-mobile-werkstatt.de/Bilder/ , and posts #285 and #286 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page29 . I am not exactly sure what's going on in this MAN KAT, hydraulically speaking. The technical description on the website reads as follows:

- Hydropneumatic suspension (instead of coil springs)
- The vehicle can be hydraulically raised or lowered manually
- Each cylinder individually adjustable
- Straighten the vehicle on uneven ground
- Customize the Einfedertiefe, side slope, depending on load
- Front / rear axle hydraulically stabilized (for a curve roll)
- Stabilization for off-road front / rear deactivated
- General suspension front and rear lockable eg crane work

See http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...werkstatt.de/Fahrzeugausstattung/&prev=search and http://www.kley-mobile-werkstatt.de/Fahrzeugausstattung/ .

Notice, however, that the rear wheels still do not seem to lift independently, at least not in these images........ But egn might be able to provide further details, because egn is friends with Marcel, the owner.


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Dock bumpers??!

Most commercial trucks have large rubber 'halfpipe' ( for a better word) bolted to the back of the vehicle.

The bumpers are there mainly to avoid damage to the loading dock if the vehicle backs into it to hard.

optimusprime, do you have any images of the such large rubber "half-pipes" mounted on the backs of truck trailers? Or links to websites that might describe them in greater detail, for instance, the websites of manufacturers, or re-sellers?


All best wishes, and Happy Christmas!



Biotect

 

[optimusprime]

Ronfell Group.
Website, vehiclewheelchocks.com ( i can't get link to work)

 

[optimusprime]

on the subject of jacking up my truck, we get a tyre fitting company to do it for us.
They use pnuematic powered jacks, they just place the jack under the appropriate axle,and lift the required wheel.
They either then remove the wheel and attend to the tyre on the ground, or they remove the tyre from the wheel in situ.

This obviously won't work on soft ground without placing the jack on some kind material to spread the load.

 

[biotect]

.

on the subject of jacking up my truck, we get a tyre fitting company to do it for us.
They use pnuematic powered jacks, they just place the jack under the appropriate axle,and lift the required wheel.
They either then remove the wheel and attend to the tyre on the ground, or they remove the tyre from the wheel in situ.

This obviously won't work on soft ground without placing the jack on some kind material to spread the load.

Hi optimus,

Many thanks for the explanation. In other words, the tire-changing service comes to you, anywhere on a regular road in England, right? They are a service that shows up with a van and a big pneumatic jack, right?

So how do MAN-KAT 6x6 owners change their own tires, in the middle of the desert?

Or how do they change their tires on the Canning Stock Route, as documented earlier in the thread -- see posts #609 to #612 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page61 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page62 ; see the original website at http://www.kapschefsky.lkw-allrad.de , http://www.kapschefsky.lkw-allrad.de/australien/Australien-1.htm , http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...sky.lkw-allrad.de/australien/Australien-1.htm :










For the Canning Stock Route, seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canning_Stock_Route , http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/travel/destinations/2009/06/the-canning-stock-route/ , http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2010/03/11/2842928.htm , and http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/canning-stock-route .

In the course of traveling the Canning Stock Route, this 6x6 MAN-KAT owner had to fix or change tires no less than 19 times.....:Wow1: .... But in his images he doesn't actually show the process of tire-changing; just the damage, and a destroyed tire being raised by his crane.

egn, your input here is much needed, and would prove invaluable..... ....Or, the input of anyone else who is willing to hazard a guess.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[biotect]

Ronfell Group.

Website, vehiclewheelchocks.com ( i can't get link to work)

Hi optimus,

Many thanks for the reference to Ronfell. These links should all work: http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/product-category/hgv-bumpers/ , http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/product/200-78-hgv-bumper/ , http://www.flameretardantrubber.com/products/ , http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/product-category/rubber-buffers/ , and http://www.flameretardantrubber.com .

In the following image from the Ronfell website, where are the bumpers located on the rear of the vehicle? Again, see http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/200-78-hgv-bumper.jpg , http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/HGV-Rear.jpg , http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/product/200-78-hgv-bumper/ :





What do others think?

LoRoad, if this kind of large rubber "half-pipe" bumper had been mounted on the sides and the top of the back of your expedition camper, do you think it would have made much of a difference when you backed into a tree?

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[optimusprime]

Yes, that is correct.
You'll find most commercial operators have such arrangements.
There are also some legal reasons for operators to do so.( at least here in the UK)

Please bear in mind, all my experience is of driving trucks on UK roads and motorways,plus when i left school ( many many yrs ago) i went into training as an HGV fitter. ( truck mechanic) so all my knowledge is UK based.
Others here are far more experienced in the practical side of ' on the rd

As for changing the wheel on a large truck, its not technically different from that of a car, just bigger and more importantly,heavier!
Most of the ex military type trucks i have seen have connections for air tools,so undoing the wheel nuts is taken care of that way,otherwise a long extension bar would be required,which of course comes with its own problems.
Then of course you have to lift the offending wheel/axle,which usually involves a bottle jack,but that of course is good on a firm level surface.

Others on here are far more qualified than me to comment on the need for repairs on the trail,so to speak.

 

[optimusprime]

Hi optimus,

Many thanks for the reference to Ronfell. These links should all work: http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/product-category/hgv-bumpers/ , http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/product/200-78-hgv-bumper/ , http://www.flameretardantrubber.com/products/ , http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/product-category/rubber-buffers/ , and http://www.flameretardantrubber.com .

In the following image from the Ronfell website, where are the bumpers located on the rear of the vehicle? Again, see http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/200-78-hgv-bumper.jpg , http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/HGV-Rear.jpg , http://www.vehiclewheelchocks.com/product/200-78-hgv-bumper/ :


View attachment 261248


What do others think?

LoRoad, if this kind of large rubber "half-pipe" bumper had been mounted on the sides and the top of the back of your expedition camper, do you think it would have made much of a difference when you backed into a tree?

All best wishes,


Biotect

The bumpers are usually placed horizontally across the end of the truck/ trailer of the cargo bed floor. Plus they have some that go about a foot or so up the end of the body. ( this also provides some protection to the bodywork if it gets knocked by fork lift trucks that are unloading/loading the truck)

you just have to ensure that where its fixed,the structure is strong enough to take any bumps!

 

[dwh]

View attachment 261248

That truck wouldn't have them, because it has a "lift gate" (drop down hydraulically operated platform).

This would be a common arrangement:

http://www.supremecorp.com/supreme.php?page=product&product=1&section=gallery&gallery=options




As for changing a tire on a big truck, you'll need a bottle jack (for the high weight rating). Phased plasma rifle in the 40 megawatt range....er...I mean bottle jack in the 10 to 20 Ton range would probably be the most common. It will also probably need to be a telescoping, or "double ram" type to get enough height. And to make life a lot easier, big ones can be had with an air fitting so you can use air to pump it up rather than having to use "armstrong" power.

For shop use, or a mobile truck tire fitter (we have them in The States as well), such a jack can be had mounted on a trolley:

To use the bottle jack on a soft surface, you'll need a collection of assorted wood blocks. You might get by with a couple of thick flat pieces, or you might have to setup a proper "cribbing":

Some of the best overland big truck tire info I've seen, is on Bill Caid's site:

http://www.billcaid.com/UnimogRepair/Wheels.html#Tires



This pic from Bill's site shows jack and cribbing behind the air cannon - under a Mog, in a desert. Pretty much says it all. :

 

[biotect]

Some of the best overland big truck tire info I've seen, is on Bill Caid's site:

http://www.billcaid.com/UnimogRepair/Wheels.html#Tires

This pic from Bill's site shows jack and cribbing behind the air cannon - under a Mog, in a desert. Pretty much says it all. :

dwh,

Terrific information, and an amazing link. The opening paragraphs on Bill Caird's website are as clear as can be, and they also answered some questions I had about different types of tires for use in soft sand -- for my questions, see section 2 of post #638, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...edition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page64:

The mog is a big truck and big trucks have big tires. Big, heavy, expensive tires. And big tires generate big work when something goes wrong like a flat or a de-bead.

The stock tire for the 1300 is a 12.5R20 or the metric equivalent. These tires are huge compared to passenger tires, but the are pretty wimpy tires in the entire scheme of things. And they really could never make a trip like the Altar desert. The 14.5R20s are better, but still not up to the task of deep, soft sand. The Michelin XM-47s were the only tire we found that could actually operate in the deep sand and not debead. We also discovered that the Continental Sand Service tires worked well, but they are not DOT rated for highway use which required logistical backflips to be able to use them on the trail.

Over the years I ran many kinds of tires on my truck, mostly Michelins but also Continentals as well. The Contis were fine tires, but hard to find (back then); the Michelins were easier. I ran XL, XS, XM, XML and XZL (395s) models on my truck. The XL and XS tires were, in my opinion, ****. They wore poorly and did not handle air-down situations well. The XMs are THE tire to have if you can find them and can afford them. Last time I checked they were in short supply and about $1200 each. XML tires are not really the correct tire for the 1300. In fact, to run them, we had to install a body lift to allow them to fit. The concept of a body lift on a mog is rather absurd given how big the truck is, but that is what was required to allow the tires to fit without rubbing. The benefit is that XML tires can be had surplus for about $150 for a mostly new tire. And, if most of your travel is going to be on asphalt, why grind down your expensive and rare XMs on the pavement. My solution was to buy a spare set of rims and mount the ex-mil tires and head out. Our trip to Alaska and back was on ex-mil tires. Ditto for a cross-U.S. trip the following year. The 395s really want a 10" rim and the mog rim is 11". So, getting these tires to set the bead is hard (ether-explosion hard). And, because of this, they cannot air down well. 20 psi is the minimum we would run with the bigger tires.

Again, see http://www.billcaid.com/UnimogRepair/Wheels.html#Tires .

So optimusprime is dead right: not only is Independent Suspension highly desirable, but furthermore, it would be highly desirable to have "hydro-pneumatic" Independent Suspension as per the dancing MAN-KAT on the previous page. Suspension of the kind that can retract wheels individually, without any need for a heavy-duty bottle jack:





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Rear Bumpers


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Do you think that half-tube rubber rear bumpers running around the perimeter of the back of the camper box might have mitigated the damage to LoRoad's vehicle, when he backed into a tree? Or is something more substantial necessary, i.e. a real bumper, of the kind that goes on the backs and fronts of vehicles? Not just down below, but all around the rear perimeter, to absorb shocks from higher things (like big tree branches at 3 m above ground) when backing up?

Of course, reverse cameras and sensors are important and will help. But I keep finding myself thinking that Romuald Koperski covered his expedition vehicle with abundant piping for a reason, and it wasn't because he intended to enter a truck rally, flip his vehicle, or do lots of off-roading..... He just wanted to cross Eurasia: see posts #928 to #932, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page93 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page94 :







All best wishes,



Biotect