TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[biotect]

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Hi thjakits,

A fantastic set of posts, that will significantly advance the discussion.


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1. The Solid Axle versus Independent Suspension debate, and the Problem with Portals


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Although you seem to be outnumbered, thjakits, you made some really good arguments for solid axles. Only you and egn have explicitly advocated solid axles; everyone else seems to favor Independent Suspension, including experienced "real" explorers and overlanders like campo and NeverEnough. I have been deliberately sitting on the fence, because I personally lack the experience and knowledge necessary to decide one way or another, with regard to overlanding carrying an apartment on the back.

I think dwh is right, that Independent Suspension does not necessarily mean that the vehicle will have a lower centerline. The one image that dwh posted illustrates this perfectly:





But thjakits, your points about (1) the complexity and additional moving parts that IS entails; (2) the possibility of great ride comfort with solid axles using an advanced suspension system (air suspension, coil springs, hydro-pneumatic, kinetic, or some combination of these); and (3) no need for IS in any case, because fast off-road travel, military style, is not a project requirement – these points are all terrific, and very well taken.

Thanks for that systematic defence of solid axles. Certainly hard to argue with most of your points. But how would you answer dwh's argument earlier in the thread, that if all wheels have electric hub motors, then a solid axle no longer seems to make much sense? And how would you answer dwh's excellent recent post about the problem of portals? And finally, how would you answer the question about turning radius? Solid axles have notoriously bad turning radiuses, in comparison to IS.

I have to confess, I never much liked the idea of portals, but it was just intuition. I could not explain why. dwh's quote from Bill Caird just gave voice to my intuition: portals are a piece of kit intended primarily for use in Unimogs, driving at low speeds off-road -- see post #1020 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...edition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page102 .


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2. Windowing: Segmented Art Deco Front Windshield


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Nice observation about the Kimberley trailer: lots of window surface, but composed of smaller, easily replaceable panes:






As luck would have it, this works out well with my overall “Art Deco” design aesthetic: Art Deco architects created huge expanses of glass out of small segments of horizontal windows.

Even before you suggested it, I have been very self-consciously distinguishing between those windows needed for driving, and the rest.

Damage to the windshield most clearly is a potential problem, and I have already acknowledged this very specifically – see post #989, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page99 :





So again thjakits, your point about the difficulty of replacing a large, 2.5 x 2.3 m windshield in the middle of the jungle was very well taken.

What do you then think about my idea of a Burstner panorama-type large window, composed of either vertical or horizontal segments, as per Art Deco horizontal windowing? Hope that you've had time to at least glance at these posts about a “segmented Art Deco” windshield – see posts #871 to #875 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page88 ; posts #907 to #911 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page91 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page92 ; and post #949 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page95 .

This TerraLiner's segmented windshield could be composed out of horizontal segments:





Or vertical segments:





And here is the Burstner Panorama again:






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See posts #100 and #101, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page10 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page11 .


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3. Windowing: Storage Space versus Windows


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As for the storage space versus windows trade-off, think of it this way:

In an integrated camper that has a huge, full-length pop-up, if the areas where one does not need or even want many windows (the bathroom, for instance, parts of the kitchen), are located down below, and the bedroom and living spaces created by the standing-height pop-up are located above, then that's where the windows would be, right? All of the big windows would be in the pop-up; none of them would be in the lower box.

When the pop-up is down, these big-windows would still show, of course, but even if they were broken, the erstwhile thief would only encounter the wall of the lower box behind them. When the pop-up is raised, however, these windows would be at least 2.5 m off the ground, so inaccessible to said thief or vandal.

I can't show you my design, but that's basically why I am not too concerned about the security issue. I was mainly concerned, instead, about debris possibly damaging these huge side-windows located in the pop-up. But dwh's Lexan shutters proposal has taken care of that, and as you are now willing to admit, debris damaging side-windows is not such a big issue anyway. It's the front windshield that is the problem, because it is most vulnerable to damage.


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4. Windowing: Shutters


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As for keeping the side windows clean, again, I've just stated that all windows will have shutters; I still haven't decided whether I want them to be transparent Lexan shutters, or solid shutters as per the Paradise Motorhomes expedition rig:








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5. Windowing: All the Layers.....


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Or some kind of combination of layers..... the technical details of the windows still needs to be worked out. And this partly depends on rough-ballpark thermal calculations that campo will be doing.

As near as I can tell, for the big windows in the pop-up I will need:


(1) A high R-rating to prevent thermal loss, so triple or even quadruple-pane, as suggested by dwh. From my upstairs bedroom I want a panoramic view of vast swathes of snow-covered tundra, while remaining safe, warm, and confortable inside my well-insulated camper shell, despite all the windowing. As per those Burstner Panorama photos just shown.


(2) An ability to completely shut out and/or moderate thermal gain in the desert, via smart glass, or semi-transparent roller blinds, or both – see posts #107 to #112, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page11 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page12 :








(3) Another layer of thermal roller blinds made of Reflectix (or something similar), to cut down on thermal loss even further – see post #106 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page11 :





(4) An external “shutter” that does not protect so much against debris, but rather, against dust and dirt, as you suggested thjakits (the Paradise Motorhomes pictures above).


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6. Axle Spacing and Steering


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thjakits, you brought up axle steering, and having the front two steer in an equally-spaced arrangement sounds right. But if two axles are clustered in the rear then I think the usual solution would be to have the very last axle steer as well, and the second axle non-steerable. Of course, all three axles could be steerable, in any arrangement.

Honestly, after posting all of those images of commercial overlanding trucks, I am a bit less worried now about the breakover angle and turtling. Many commercial overlanding trucks have incredibly long distances between axles; even “Aminah”, the truck that drives along mud tracks in West Africa:







See posts #981 and #982 and posts #987 to #989 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page99 .


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Some commercial overlanding trucks also seem to have positively terrible departure angles; for instance, the vehicles used by Odyssey:





See post #978 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page98 . But maybe I am wrong about this; maybe the camera angles in these images are not doing these vehicles sufficient justice?

Sure, I am still aiming for MAN-KAT level approach and departure angles (45 degrees), and I want the vehicle to be 6x6, to cut down on the distance between the first and second axle. But because the standard “two axles clustered in back” arrangement allows for long side-lockers between the first and second axles, I think that's what I will finally choose. Evenly spaced axles pretty much eliminate any possibility of side-lockers. But even with two axles clustered in back, the TerraLiner will probably end up with an inter-axle distance between the first and second axle that is much less than the inter-axle distance in almost all of the commercial overlanding trucks I've covered so far.


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7. Suspension Systems and Lifting the Wheels Individually


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thjakits, thanks for your really good, reflective advice on Air Suspension versus Kinetic Suspension. And a very nice summary of all the advantages of being able to lift the wheels individually:

With either [kinetic or air suspension] it is easy to rig it to have any wheel or axle raise individually and I certainly would do that!

a) Certainly will help with tire/wheel changes
b) Sometimes, many wheels are not the best solution for traction! If you get into such a situation, it is easy to lift a wheel/axle and provide more weight on the remaining axles/wheels!!
c) Raising wheels is mainly a way to save a few bucks on tire wear in the trucking industry and may also improve the ride when empty.

On the Terraliner with evenly spaced axles it might help with tire wear (....IF your MVGW comes in under the 2-axle limit), but it will certainly look funky with the middle axle in the air! (Though keep the ability! If you have some damage at the axle/wheel/tire you can get it off the ground and the rig rolling until you get to a place where you can fix things!)

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8. Chassis/Body Protection Systems


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Also, really excellent summary of the different possible external protection systems:

a) A protective cage

b) A Brushguard

c) Roll-guards

d) Bullbar

e) Sliders

• Brush-Guards

As dwh suggested, the external piping on Romuald Koperski's trans-Eurasian MAN-KAT is probably not a true roll-cage, but rather, an elaborate brush-guard extended the whole way around the vehicle. And yes, the partyline still holds: in the TerraLiner the roll-cage that will protect the passengers from catastrophic flattening will not be visible, and will be incorporated into the carbon-fiber structure.

So too, the Terraliner will have ample brushguards for lights, front windows, and above the cab area for power lines; pretty much like the Tatra GTC 815 or Orangewerk expedition MAN-KAT -- see posts #617 and #618 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page62 :








Except that in the TerraLiner, I've been endeavoring to incorporate the brushguards into an overall "Art Deco" design aesthetic. Hopefully, they will appear to be natural extensions of the vehicle's design, and not mere add-on piping.

In these Orangewerk images, the central brush-guards above the cab seem to be purpose-built "power line deflectors", of the kind you are suggesting. But nice idea in addition regarding a power-line “lifter”. Care to get more specific, and/or post some images of what you have in mind?


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• Bull-Bars

Thanks for those excellent images of bull-bars on large buses with lots of glass. But I also quite liked your earlier reference to a bull bar that lowers, because that also makes possible dwh's slide-out, range-extending diesel generator-on-a-tray:










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• Stone-Guards

As for stone-guards to protect the windshield further down, an absolute must. (I think the technical term is stone guard and not rock guard: see Orlov's post #717, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page72 ):







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The Paradise Motorhomes expedition vehicle certainly has a windshield stone-guard:








And agreed, at the end of the day, even with rear half-pipe rubber bumpers, the best way to prevent backing into a tree and damaging the rig, is cameras and abundant rear lighting. So too, lots of mirrors and cameras in front.


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• Side-Protection "Sliders"

As for easily replaceable/disposable, side-protection “sliders”, I am not quite sure if I know what you mean. Here are some images: is this what you have in mind?





All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[optimusprime]

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• Side-Protection "Sliders"

As for easily replaceable/disposable, side-protection “sliders”, I am not quite sure if I know what you mean. Here are some images: is this what you have in mind?

View attachment 262353 View attachment 262356 View attachment 262352
View attachment 262354 View attachment 262355


All best wishes,



Biotect

No Bio, those are 'Pedestrian' guards, they are to help stop pedestrians and cyclists in the event of an incident going under the truck whilst in motion and getting run over.

The 'Rock slider' is ( usually) a bolt on length of heavy guage steel, that runs under the sills of the body work,down each side
Of the vehicle between the front and rear wheels.
Its purpose is to do what its name suggests, to allow the vehicle to 'slide' over rocks etc the vehicle has to drive over,
( i'm on an Ipad here, and it will not let me paste links for some reason)

 

[optimusprime]

Typical Rock slider on a Defender.

 

[optimusprime]

On the subject of mirrors, you want as many as you can practically have.
When driving a 'large' vehicle,they are your eyes,if you lose the use of your passenger side ones,you are BLIND down the entire length of thst side of the vehicle! ( in fact it is illegal to drive a large vehicle in the uk if the passenger side mirrors are missing or broken!