The bigger the truck, the greater the (misplaced?) concern about payload?

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Maybe just semantics, but there is no regulation regarding GVWR for trucks for private use, so far as the law is concerned. The number is the manufacturer warranty and liability limit. In some other countries that number is the law however (you'll get a ticket if you are over), and it isn't surprising that the number is higher. Is the Colorado exactly the same, in tires, springs, etc? Another factor is that in most countries they use trucks almost exclusively as trucks (hauling, towing) rather than passenger cars. A 1,000 lb payload would be useless.

I didn't realize the driving fatality rate was so high in the US compared to most developed countries! Hitting animals is far down the list of accident causes though... and I don't see anything that would fit in the category of "overloading".

I didn't quote your whole post Rruff but that is a good point about private use though I seem to recall reading that it may be a state-by-state issue (as in, some states may enforce private GVWR numbers). It's been a while since I looked. Either way, I tend to adopt the "Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" methodology so regardless of what the law reads, I'll do what I think is safe and reasonably mitigates risk, so I tend to stick in the designated numbers.

And yeah - those driving numbers are shocking aren't they? It's most certainly the most dangerous thing most people do on a daily basis.

The nuance with #1 is that the roads and use case in Aus *may* allow there to be a lower factor of safety, they don't have the mountain ranges and potential speeds we do. So with that said, if a person lived in Nebraska they may be safer to be at or over GVWR than if they lived the West. Obviously Manuf. are not going to dictate GVWR based on location so they use one size fits all.

We all know well that mid-size trucks with full size loads ain't gunna cut it here in WA/OR/ID, even though it's allowed in AUS. Can you imagine coming off a pass in CO with 2300+ pounds in the back of a Tacoma/Hilux!?

Yeah fair - there are a few 130 kph roads in Australia, but far more common are roads that are 100-110 kph routes. They do have some mountainous areas but not like the Rockies. But that being said, I've not seen any information that suggests GVWR specs are based on the driving conditions in the country they are in; I don't know if they use science and crash testing, or chicken bones and tea leaves to come up with the numbers. But I do know the numbers always seem to align with CAFE categories, so I'm suspicious. It would be brilliant if manufactures could tell us how they arrived at their payload and GVWR specs; that would inform us what needs to be upgraded in order to safely carry greater loads and reduce some of the guesswork!

I also agree with your second statement with a caveat - a stock mid size truck with a full size load is not going to be a fun time in the mountains, no disagreement there. But, a mid-size trucks with better brakes, load-appropriate tires, and suspension to carry the weight? I'm less confident that this scenario would be a deathtrap.

If anybody wants to loan me their mid-size truck and about $20k for components so I can upgrade it, I will go do a test for a few weeks in the mountains and report back. It's just one of the many sacrifices I'm willing to make for this community

 

[nickw]

I didn't quote your whole post Rruff but that is a good point about private use though I seem to recall reading that it may be a state-by-state issue (as in, some states may enforce private GVWR numbers). It's been a while since I looked. Either way, I tend to adopt the "Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" methodology so regardless of what the law reads, I'll do what I think is safe and reasonably mitigates risk, so I tend to stick in the designated numbers.

And yeah - those driving numbers are shocking aren't they? It's most certainly the most dangerous thing most people do on a daily basis.



Yeah fair - there are a few 130 kph roads in Australia, but far more common are roads that are 100-110 kph routes. They do have some mountainous areas but not like the Rockies. But that being said, I've not seen any information that suggests GVWR specs are based on the driving conditions in the country they are in; I don't know if they use science and crash testing, or chicken bones and tea leaves to come up with the numbers. But I do know the numbers always seem to align with CAFE categories, so I'm suspicious. It would be brilliant if manufactures could tell us how they arrived at their payload and GVWR specs; that would inform us what needs to be upgraded in order to safely carry greater loads and reduce some of the guesswork!

I also agree with your second statement with a caveat - a stock mid size truck with a full size load is not going to be a fun time in the mountains, no disagreement there. But, a mid-size trucks with better brakes, load-appropriate tires, and suspension to carry the weight? I'm less confident that this scenario would be a deathtrap.

If anybody wants to loan me their mid-size truck and about $20k for components so I can upgrade it, I will go do a test for a few weeks in the mountains and report back. It's just one of the many sacrifices I'm willing to make for this community

You are one of the few folks on this website that doesn't take debating / disagreeing personally - I appreciate that!

There may also be performance expectations - here in the states we have very high expectations regarding acceleration and handling, manuf may feel like the bar is set a lot lower in Aus so they can produce a rig that is stiff as hell and the blokes in Aus are ok with it.

I think the danger of allowing individuals to upgrade is that guy A (like yourself) is going to spend the $ and time to do it right and guy B is going to do it as cheaply as possible, no consistency. There would really need to be a 3rd party validator owning some liability in upgrading the trucks (like in Aus) or I'm not sure if it would be viable.

I do think there is a chance that there are some minor components that differ, things like motor mounts, spring perch's, frame sections, etc. that are made to a crash safety / EPA / pricepoint that are not obvious differences between markets but may exist when looking into specific part #'s. I know Hiluxes and Tacomas shared a lot of parts back in the early 2000's, but there were some differences in the front end (from what I remember)...

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

You are one of the few folks on this website that doesn't take debating / disagreeing personally - I appreciate that!

There may also be performance expectations - here in the states we have very high expectations regarding acceleration and handling, manuf may feel like the bar is set a lot lower in Aus so they can produce a rig that is stiff as hell and the blokes in Aus are ok with it.

I think the danger of allowing individuals to upgrade is that guy A (like yourself) is going to spend the $ and time to do it right and guy B is going to do it as cheaply as possible, no consistency. There would really need to be a 3rd party validator owning some liability in upgrading the trucks (like in Aus) or I'm not sure if it would be viable.

I do think there is a chance that there are some minor components that differ, things like motor mounts, spring perch's, frame sections, etc. that are made to a crash safety / EPA / pricepoint that are not obvious differences between markets but may exist when looking into specific part #'s. I know Hiluxes and Tacomas shared a lot of parts back in the early 2000's, but there were some differences in the front end (from what I remember)...

Cheers for the kind words Nickw. It's just trucks after all! And I find I learn a lot more than I contribute to these conversations.

Fully agree that I'd want a validator of some kind like they have in Australia if it were to be the practice here in Canada. That spurs another conversation about how these various regulators actually help vs how they are perceived to help; I think the TSA is perhaps the best example of this and is often referred to as "Security theater" but I would stretch that to say it's more like 'Regulatory theater' -- similar initiatives exist in food and drug and other sectors of the economy too. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad there are groups out there that make sure my Tylenol is fentanyl free and my hotdogs have less than 5% roach, but I do sometimes wonder how effective they truly are at making sure regulations are sensible and enforced. But that's a conversation for a beer at a pub!

It would be fantastic to do a deep dive into part numbers of various NA vs ROW vehicles. I did a bit on mine with the Isuzu when I was planning on taking it internationally so I know certain parts are interchangeable, but my scope was limited to wear parts only - I didn't look at things like engine mounts as they don't typically wear out the way a brake pad or bushing will. Maybe someday if I have the time and gumption I'll do a more robust one!

 

[RAM5500 CAMPERTHING]

For me, it's not an issue about violating the holy sticker on the door, it's about abusing my truck. Why would I beat on my truck by overloading it? Some people might not mind but I need my vehicles to last so I stay within their design limits.

EXACTLY

 

[gatorgrizz27]

I believe in the 75% rule. Never load greater then 75% of your payload rating, or pull greater then 75% of your max towing. I bought greater then what I needed and personally have better piece of mind. When I was younger, I bought a truck that was 6250 gvw......and quicky out grew it. Now I own one at 11,800 gvw and 27,500 gcvw. Some of you may quote the SAE J towing numbers as max, but my 7.3 gas hits well above it's weight class. I had no idea it did when I bought it and just makes me that much happier. Better to have and not need it, then need it and not have it.

The problem with payload and towing numbers is that people take them as an “end all, be all”, partly because the manufacturers present them that way to get sales.

If your payload is 2,500 lbs, you can do 1,000 miles of pothole/washboard roads in Baja loaded to 2,499 lbs with zero problems, but if you are at 2,501 lbs running 55 mph down a smooth paved 2 lane road the frame is going to break in half…

It‘s more like “how heavy of a backpack can you carry?” From here to the end of the driveway? A mile? 8 miles through rocky terrain at 10,000 ft? There are no ”absolutes”.

My 2003 Silverado 2500HD has a payload capacity of 3800 lbs.
A 2020 F250 CCSB has a payload capacity of 1800 lbs.
I’d be willing to wager the newer truck will handle the same weight better, even if it was overloaded by 100%.

 

[tacollie]

We all know well that mid-size trucks with full size loads ain't gunna cut it here in WA/OR/ID, even though it's allowed in AUS. Can you imagine coming off a pass in CO with 2300+ pounds in the back of a Tacoma/Hilux!?

Colorado's full of heavily overloaded Tacomas, 4runners, and Jeeps. I've drove heavily overloaded Tacomas and 4runners around Colorado for 14 years. Then I drove a overloaded Tundra for 2 years. I never had issues. The worst vehicles I've ever driven in Colorado were economy cars and minivans that offer no engine braking and have tiny brakes. The biggest piece of junk was the 2021 Chrysler Pacifica we rented to shuttle family last summer. We cooked those brakes coming down passes. That thing was sketchy. I do have to say my crappy spine loved the seats ?

 

[nickw]

Colorado's full of heavily overloaded Tacomas, 4runners, and Jeeps. I've drove heavily overloaded Tacomas and 4runners around Colorado for 14 years. Then I drove a overloaded Tundra for 2 years. I never had issues. The worst vehicles I've ever driven in Colorado were economy cars and minivans that offer no engine braking and have tiny brakes. The biggest piece of junk was the 2021 Chrysler Pacifica we rented to shuttle family last summer. We cooked those brakes coming down passes. That thing was sketchy. I do have to say my crappy spine loved the seats ?

I've driven overloaded Tacomas (my 01) and my Ranger (2019), we must be going down different 'passes' I guess!? My last run pulling a 4000 lb trailer in the mountains (gravel roads) in ID was sketchy at best....Ranger rated at 7500! Cooked the hell out of my brakes, 4wd low was an option, that truck didn't like that one bit.

 

[tacollie]

I've driven overloaded Tacomas (my 01) and my Ranger (2019), we must be going down different 'passes' I guess!? My last run pulling a 4000 lb trailer in the mountains (gravel roads) in ID was sketchy at best....Ranger rated at 7500! Cooked the hell out of my brakes, 4wd low was an option, that truck didn't like that one bit.

4000lbs trailer is different than 1000lbs overweight. I towed a FJ55 and another time a FJ40 with a Tacoma. It sucked both times but Tacomas aren't supposed to be used for towing those vehicles.

My Tacomas weren't stock. 1000lbs over GVWR on stock springs would be a different story. What I've learned is I spent a lot of time and money trying to make Toyota's ok at carrying weight when I should have just bought a F-250 in the first place?

 

[Grasslakeron]

My brother and i are under two different camps.....same amount of money.

My brother believes that buying the ultra lightest gear is the way to go. Weighs everything to the ounce. Buys a light truck to keep all his lite gear. His cost, the same as I. I buy a heavier truck that can do more. I buy cast iron cookware to last several lifetimes. His titanium cookware is already dented up. His mileage is the same as mine. Yes, he drives faster, but I don't. I guess it boils down to what camp you want to be in.

 

[nickw]

4000lbs trailer is different than 1000lbs overweight. I towed a FJ55 and another time a FJ40 with a Tacoma. It sucked both times but Tacomas aren't supposed to be used for towing those vehicles.

My Tacomas weren't stock. 1000lbs over GVWR on stock springs would be a different story. What I've learned is I spent a lot of time and money trying to make Toyota's ok at carrying weight when I should have just bought a F-250 in the first place?

It was a braked trailer, so I'm guessing in the ballpark of carrying an extra 1000 lbs payload in a Tacoma based on the gain % the trailer was set at....but regardless, the damn thing was "RATED" to tow 7500.

I just wish 3/4T / 1 T trucks were the size they were 20 years ago....

 

[nickw]

My brother and i are under two different camps.....same amount of money.

My brother believes that buying the ultra lightest gear is the way to go. Weighs everything to the ounce. Buys a light truck to keep all his lite gear. His cost, the same as I. I buy a heavier truck that can do more. I buy cast iron cookware to last several lifetimes. His titanium cookware is already dented up. His mileage is the same as mine. Yes, he drives faster, but I don't. I guess it boils down to what camp you want to be in.

I'm more in your camp to be honest.....at least when it comes to trucks. Bicycles and motorcycles are a different animal.

 

[ramblinChet]

So many "experienced" people here just don't get it. Your personal stories of overloaded vehicles during normal driving conditions have absolutely zero value. Virtually every possible configuration of any vehicle feels fine in normal conditions.

The great danger you are missing here is how would your overloaded vehicle handle and react in an emergency situation? I am not talking about a drive when you are in control of the vehicle - I am talking about a portion of a drive when you are standing on the brakes and prying at the steering wheel with both hands barely able to control your vehicle. The GVWR, payload rating, suspension, braking, steering, etc. have all been painstakingly designed and rigorously tested to operate within a defined and acceptable profile.

For those of you who are uneducated and/or irresponsible and drive overloaded vehicles, I challenge you to overload your rig and begin rolling down Wolf Creek Pass at night, with poor visibility, and tell us how well your rig handles when you swerve into oncoming traffic to avoid an animal crossing the road and then attempt to swerve back into your lane since you are now about to crash head-on into an 80,000 pound 18-wheeler. Share your amazing ability to control a vehicle which is operating well outside of it's operating envelope.

I would expect this sort of irresponsible and uneducated discussion from teenagers or guys in their 20s with a devil-may-care attitude. But from this group, seriously? Arguing that exceeding load limits is nothing to worry about since, "I did this blah, blah, blah..."

 

[nickw]

Maybe just semantics, but there is no regulation regarding GVWR for trucks for private use, so far as the law is concerned. The number is the manufacturer warranty and liability limit. In some other countries that number is the law however (you'll get a ticket if you are over), and it isn't surprising that the number is higher. Is the Colorado exactly the same, in tires, springs, etc? Another factor is that in most countries they use trucks almost exclusively as trucks (hauling, towing) rather than passenger cars. A 1,000 lb payload would be useless.

I didn't realize the driving fatality rate was so high in the US compared to most developed countries! Hitting animals is far down the list of accident causes though... and I don't see anything that would fit in the category of "overloading".

The 25 Top Causes of Car Accidents in the US

Learn some of the top causes of car accidents on the road as well as helpful tips to help prevent future car accidents while driving.

seriousaccidents.com

1. Speeding. Speed kills, and traveling above the speed limit is an easy way to cause a car accident.
2. Rain. Car accidents happen very often in the rain because water creates slick and dangerous surfaces for cars, trucks, and motorcycles
3. Design Defects. Automobiles have hundreds of parts, and any of those defective parts can cause a serious car accident.
4. Tailgating. Many fatal car accidents have occurred when a motorist dangerously tailgated another driver at high speeds. You can prevent these car accidents by giving the car in front of you a one-car-length buffer for every 10 mph you drive.
5. Ice. Ice is a major cause of car accidents for cities with cold weather climates.
6. Snow. Like ice, cities with cold winters know all-too-well just how dangerous snow can be for commuters.
7. Potholes. Drivers run the risk of losing control of their car or blowing out a tire when they drive over potholes.
8. Tire Blowouts. Tire blowouts can cause you to lose control of your vehicle, and they are especially dangerous for bigger automobiles like semi-trucks.
9. Deadly Curves. Many motorists have lost control of their cars along a dangerous curve and lost their lives in a car accident.
10. Animal Crossings. Wild animals will wade out into the street, and it’s up to you to make sure that you don’t get into a car accident with them.

I distilled your list down to items that are effected by having an overloaded rig.

Things related to braking, "Tailgaiting", "Ice", "Snow", "Animals" are 100% effected by overloading.

Things related to handling, "Speeding", "Rain", "Curves" are effected by overloading.

Things related to vehicle durability, "Design defects", "Potholes", "Tire Blowouts" are effected by overloading.

So your list proves the point....now does overloading increase risk by .01% or 5% or 25%, who knows....but if that list is accurate you are increasing your risk by a number higher than 0%....

Now you may not be tailgating or speeding or hitting potholes, but the point stands, you need to give yourself 5 seconds gap behind a rig instead of standard 3, not doable in some situations. You need to swerve to miss that huge pothole, may not be doable. You need to go at or under the speed limit, good luck in So Cal....

 

[UglyViking]

… Virtually every possible configuration of any vehicle feels fine in normal conditions. …

For those of you who are uneducated and/or irresponsible and drive overloaded vehicles, I challenge you to overload your rig and begin rolling down Wolf Creek Pass at night, with poor visibility, and tell us how well your rig handles when you swerve into oncoming traffic to avoid an animal crossing the road and then attempt to swerve back into your lane since you are now about to crash head-on into an 80,000 pound 18-wheeler. Share your amazing ability to control a vehicle which is operating well outside of it's operating envelope. …

I'd agree with the first bolded comment. Every modern vehicle is built with huge margins for safety, because normal conditions are only part of the driving experience.

That said, your second comment is sort of the obvious "don't do this". I'd argue that even if you're driving down said pass at night, with poor visibility, under your payload, that if you're having to pull emergency maneuvers you're driving too fast for the conditions.

Overloading is just a single potential aspect that will change how your vehicle handles. Everyone on this thread, including yourself, is changing up wheels, tires, etc. as part of their "build". Your rig isn't going to handle to factory specs with 17" wheels and 37" tires. Sidewall is going to change, rubber compound and tread are different than OEM. You've just changed your vehicles capabilities according to the OEM.

The same goes for where your payload is situated. You're carrying a camper, which is going to change the center of gravity for your vehicle.

My point isn't that you're overloading, or that anyone should be overloading, but rather that any change to the truck from it's OEM configuration puts the OEM numbers in a pretty moot spot.

I'd also ask how you feel about folks who upgrade components mentioned. If I upgrade my springs and shocks, wheels and tires, and brakes in order to account for a heavier load, am I really putting myself at more of a disadvantage than someone who has a completely stock rig but is maxing their payload with a heavy camper? If all my weight is on the rig itself (bumpers, winch, tires, etc.) and I've taken that into account am I not better off than someone who has their weight in a position that raises COG?

These discussions are always kind of funny because literally everyone here is modifying their vehicle outside the factory specs.

 

[rruff]

The GVWR, payload rating, suspension, braking, steering, etc. have all been painstakingly designed and rigorously tested to operate within a defined and acceptable profile.

That's not true at all... there is no "defined and acceptable profile". Stock heavy trucks handle like pigs and ride atrociously over bumps. You can absolutely improve on that greatly with tire and suspension upgrades. Making a 1/2 ton handle better hauling a 3,000 lb load than a stock 1 ton is not tricky.

And just to go into the silly, but socially acceptable zone... what do you think of 80 year old guys getting behind the wheel of a 40ft Class A, with no experience in anything bigger than a Camry? That rig due to its shear size is going to handle and brake worse than all but the most egregiously overloaded pickup. Same for all those semis and big trucks on the freeway. They generally have much better drivers, but most of them don't seem too concerned about following distance. What do they do in emergencies?

Big brakes are nice if you are dragging them for long periods; but I never need to do that since I use engine braking. In emergency stops on any surface, you need enough brake to skid the tires (engage ABS), and past that it doesn't matter.

Reliability and parts longevity are the bigger questions. Not safety... unless you are stupid.

BTW, I've been in several emergency driving situations. First order of business is always slam on the brakes and go straight. If you are going to swerve, do it at the last microsecond, and make damn sure you do it within the limitations of your vehicle. Modern vehicles are made to slam into things head on... do somersaults down the road (and maybe over the cliff), not so much.