Thoughts on RRC vs. Disco II?

[Farmerdave]

Hi all,
I'm new to the forum, but have been reading posts for awhile now. I want to build an expedition style rig as a toy to take my kids on trips into the back country. I am leaning toward the Disco II, but the RRC tempts me as well. I'm currently working on a 1953 Willys M38A1 jeep, but it is not big enough to take my kids with me. I have 4 kids, by the way. So what do you Rover experts have to say about the pros and cons of the two models? Bear in mind that it would be a toy and not a daily driver. I am well versed with Lucas the prince of darkness, so no fear there (I have an MG, Lotus, and Triumph). I'm also pretty good at wrenching. I was thinking about a series rig, but I think I would rather have my kids in something with more modern safety features.
Thanks,
Dave

 

[Skookumchuck]

I have a updated Series IIA 1968 109 SW that I take my family everywhere. Nothing wrong with the leafers if you bring them up to snuff.

 

[David Harris]

With four kids, definitely the D2 with the seven seat option. The RRC will be far too small.

 

[Farmerdave]

Well, my wife is not likely to go into the woods with us anyway, so I could fit the kids in just about anything. She uses prosthetic legs so logistics becomes a problem when camping without facilities.

 

[Snagger]

As a keen owner of a lovely RRC, I can only endorse Oryxexpeditioons' viewppoint. The RRC is a great daily car for a family of four, but a family of six won't fit it at the best of times, nevermind with expedition equipment. You really need a seven seat DI or DII. If you go for the DII, try to convert it to coils like the 5 seat DII - the air suspension is a real Achilles heel on an expedition vehicle, and teh hydraulic ACE on the front suspension can be troublesome too. Otherwise, they're a good vehicle.

 

[ZG]

You can find 7 seaters from the factory without ACE and SLS. Either way I was out trailriding in Moab a guy had his G4 D2 rear air go out. I would never suggest an exped vehicle with air that can fail. I would go for the D2, but I'm a bit biased.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Farmerdave]

What is ACE?

 

[Farmerdave]

Is it possible to eliminate the air suspension? Why is it a problem? I have 88,000 miles on my Ford Expedition with air suspension that I mildly drive off road on the ranch every day, ford through creeks, etc. It has never been a problem, other than extremely squeaky disc brakes from all the dust. Does the Rover suspension collapse completely when it fails?

 

[czenkov]

Is it possible to eliminate the air suspension? Why is it a problem? I have 88,000 miles on my Ford Expedition with air suspension that I mildly drive off road on the ranch every day, ford through creeks, etc. It has never been a problem, other than extremely squeaky disc brakes from all the dust. Does the Rover suspension collapse completely when it fails?

ACE = Active Cornering Enhancement (IIRC)

Yes when air fails they go down to bump stops. Convert to coils and Coils rarely fail. I have two classics. One I am kitting for off road. But there are only two of us. My other one has third row seat, I wouldn't use it though. Not what I would call safe. And it is air suspension. I am thinking of keeping it simply because it will not go off road = cream puff.

 

[ZG]

^Yes, active cornering enhancement. When this fails you are SOL! You can convert to coils really easily.

 

[Farmerdave]

Other than the air to coil conversion, what are the weak points that need updating?

 

[czenkov]

I can only speak on Classics - personally I stay away from DII's - just don't interest me.

ABS can be problematic on the Classic I think the pump is $1200 or so. Check his link for a lot of info on the Classic.
http://www.rangerovers.net/modelspecs/index.html

 

[ZG]

You'll have to the head gaskets and the front drive shaft.

 

[Snagger]

What is ACE?

As others answered, it stands for Active Cornering Enhancement. It is a hydraulically actuated, electronically controlled torque rod, much like an anti sway bay, that attempts to improve vehicle stability on DIIs with rear air suspension; the usual fits are coil springs all round for five seaters and coils up front with air at the back for seven seaters, the idea being that rear air suspension can compensate for the weight of an extra two passengers behind the rear axle. The rear EAS sets us some odd dynamics, apparently, which require the ACE to make high speed driving more reasonable.

I'd go for a five seater, or in the OP's case, a seven seater and retrofit HD coils and dampers all round with the ECU module to fool the car into thinking the ACE and EAS are functioning when in fact they're long gone. I know Atlantic British did such coil conversion kits for the RRC and P38, so I assume they'll do them for the DII too.

As for the susceptibility of the air spring system, it is much more complex and thus more vulnerable than simple coil or leaf springs. Between compressor and each air spring (essentially a thick rubber balloon) is a set of high pressure air lines and a valve block, the valves in which are controlled by an ECU, driver controls and axle ride heigh sensors (plastic scissor arms with a rheostat), with all the associated underbody and interior wiring and connections. The rubber of the air springs perishes or abrades with age and use until they split, and usually they rupture along their full length when the vehicle is heavy (seen it happen to a DII on an expedition). Smaller leaks lead to a worn out compressor. Parts are expensive; a coil retrofit is no much dearer than replacing one air spring and is cheaper than replacing a compressor or valve block.

 

[Snagger]

Two other issues that affect TD5 models - performance tuning and the clutch:

The TD5 came in two versions - one for the Defender and one for the Discovery. Theyre essentially identical, but the Discovery's can run at much higher turbo boosts and with longer boosts (its really just the ECU that's different, not the actual mechanical parts). The effect of this is that Discovery engines, especially if they have suffered after-market performance tweaking, can warp their exhaust manifolds, which tends to shear the manifold studs or rip them right out of the head. The lower tuned Defender engines seem bullet proof unless tampered with.

Again, specific to the Discovery model, was the clutch used on manual transmissions. The TD5 wasn't the smoothest running engine, so to make the drive more comfortable on the Discovery, they fitted a big mass balance on the back of the transfer box to absorb the residual vibration and installed a dual mass flywheel. While a normal clutch has a big, solid flywheel bolted directly to the crank shaft, and the friction plate has an outer lined ring connected to the centre splined hub with heavy springs to absorb some engine vibrations and a bit of the shock loadings on bad gear changes, the dual mass flywheel does this the other way around. The clutch friction plate is a single solid piece, while the flywheel is actually two lighter discs connected together with a small amount of slip resisted by springs. It's prone to failure, and the LR fix was to fit the Defender's robust single piece flywheel system. In practice, the difference in driving vibration is not very noticeable.

I would imagine that most US DIIs are V8 powered automatics, so neither of these issues will be a problem. Just make sure that V8s and ZF transmissions have regular oil and filter changes - the engine suffers worn cams if the oil is poor, and the ZF can burn its fluid, requiring regular replacement.

One minor consideration is wheel bearings - the DII uses an integrated bearing that can't be replaced like the RRC or DI parts - you need to buy the complete bearing/suspension member, which is costlier.