Thoughts on Transplants- 300Tdi vs. 3.9 v8

[lwg]

Not quite

If we break the manufacturers specified max loads it's a crime. If this is found to be the case after an accident our inusrance is void; and if someone is hurt or injured because of it we need to buy soap on a rope. Most of our police have no idea what rules are but the guys that matter do

Mind you the law is flouted all the time by folk that don't care/don't know

Same goes for most European countries and a number round the world

For example max LR 110 roof load (inc rack) is 75kgs for EU with RoW being 150kgs

Under British law the same thing applies to non approved bolt on bits and some non OE bits (same in Germany, Spain, France etc). If you fit a set of OME +2" springs they have never been homologated for the vehicle - illegal on the road; but only likley to get fined etc if you have a crash that involves injury or death

Wow, and I thought we had too much regulation! I would pull my hair out over there.

What about Kit Cars? Are they legal, is it possible to build a custom vehicle to skirt these laws?

 

[Rocket Ship]

What about Kit Cars? Are they legal, is it possible to build a custom vehicle to skirt these laws?

Well, they invented the Locost 7, so I would guess so.

Difficult to start with a VIN'd frame and call it a "kit", however.

 

[Nonimouse]

Google SVA, IVA, BIVA, DVLA, VOSA to find out what hoops we have to jump through

Example: The most powerful engine the Defender was Type Approved for was the 4.0ltr V8. This means that if you fit any engine that has 25% more power (stock) than that 4.0ltr V8 you will need to ring the DVLA who will require a VOSA test on a 'Radical Modification'; as a Defender straight off the line won't pass a Radical Mod test you're scuppered. However the UK doesn't require an engine number on it's V5 (vehicle logbook) so you can get away with fitting other engines. Except when you have that crash...
The way round it is to take a standard engine and modify it. Any reasonable spanner wielder can get 225bhp/300ft/lb out of a 3.5V8 (and that's imperial bhp), same goes for 135bhp/270ft/lb from a 200/300tdi...

Legally we can only fit tyre sizes homologated/type approved for the vehicle - same in Spain/France/Germany etc. So that's 255/85 as the biggest for a Defender and 245/70 for a Disco1/RRC. And 255's are being phased out world wide!

Yet at the LRMax show last weekend 35" tyres were everywhere, as were bob tailed Disco 1's not on a 'Q' plate, tray backed 90's etc

The law is ignored until someone gets killed http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...and-Rover-crash-killed-his-four-children.html
This guy paid the ultimate price for what were mostly common mods. Then he did time and was torn apart by the press (and we all know how accurate the British Press are don't we!)

 

[burn_e]

"Experts found the calliper on the offside front brake was larger than the one on the nearside front brake, which caused the car to slew when the brakes were applied.

The brake pedals were worn so badly that the brake pedal had to be pressed "pretty much down to the floor" before it began to stop the car."

???

speechless!

 

[Nonimouse]

You will never belive how much anger, confusion, upset, hatred, sympathy and general emotional turmoil that incident caused. Yet all in all the standard of 'mods' on vehicles hasn't got better, nor has the policing of those 'mods'

 

[TeriAnn]

A year ago, I evaluated whether to convert the engine in my 91 RR to a 300TDi. I decided against it. No matter how you tweak the facts, the costs of the conversion vs the improved fuel economy doesnt pay for itself.

In 1999 when my Land Rover was converted from a 2.25L petrol engine to a Ford 302 I really wanted to put a diesel engine into it for the increased fuel mileage. I wanted to stay 100% legal for California and was looking at small diesels sold into the US. My primary suspects were the LD28 (Nissan 2.8L six, sold in Maximas) and the SD33T (Nissan 3.3L six sold in ScoutIIs). I was insisting on having a fresh engine and fresh gearbox. I don't like the idea of starting out with an unknown engine that may or may not have issues or limited service life. Anyway when I ran the numbers the rebuild cost of the diesel alone was not that much less than the cost of a rebuilt 1968 Ford 302 (CA SMOG exempt), a rebuilt gearbox and the cost of the swap. Going diesel would have almost doubled the cost of the swap. I ran the fuel savings costs out and never really saw a break even point unless I could get free fuel.

Then around 2007 I had thoughts of a GM 6.2 diesel and ran the numbers with my engine bay already converted to fit a V8 and an already strengthened drive train. I ran the numbers again with 2007 fuel prices and figured I could not pay for the swap out of fuel savings between rebuilds. So I ended up converting my 302 from a carb to 1991 Mustang 5.0 EFI for additional fuel savings and let it go at that.

Fresh diesels are expensive and you never know what may have happened to a used one before it got removed from the vehicle it was in. You can never know the mileage on the engine or timing belt as a certainty. If it has been badly overheated or if the oil had ever been changed. I believe a used engine is like a buying a pig in a poke. You never know what's inside until after the seller has walked away with your money in his pocket.

And that's not counting State regulations in the US. People here have been talking putting a diesel engine that was never federalized, never offered for sale with the US into a vehicle that was never sold into the US as a diesel version.

On the other hand it is your wheelbarrow full of dollars to do with as you wish.

"We need to sell our Rover though we love it dearly. We have been transferred to another state and the landlord will not let us keep it"

 

[Viggen]

And that's not counting State regulations in the US. People here have been talking putting a diesel engine that was never federalized, never offered for sale with the US into a vehicle that was never sold into the US as a diesel version.

On the other hand it is your wheelbarrow full of dollars to do with as you wish.

"We need to sell our Rover though we love it dearly. We have been transferred to another state and the landlord will not let us keep it"

Thats always the trip right there. 300tdi is not a "legal" motor really. Neither are the popular 4BT, 4BD1T or OM617. They are either not federalized, not designed for light duty applications (4B motors) or too old (OM617). Its a gamble really and is dependent upon your State not caring. Right now they dont but I bet that soon enough, they will. I have read more than enough illegal car/ car modification stories where the Fed came and crushed the car to be scared enough. $5K for a motor setup plus labor costs (or time if you do it yourself) is a huge loss if the government does decide to pay attention (not to mention that the moment people finish said swap, they post up their information on the internet making it that much easier for the government to figure out where they are and that is, incidentally the very way I have seen the illegal cars tracked and crushed).

 

[Rocket Ship]

Given the state of US finances, I would really hope that at some point, somebody realizes, that the state can not afford to pay for a department who would care about something as trivial as a couple of guys putting different engines in their vehicles. This is the type of pointless regulation that is bankrupting your country.

Nonimouse, I had heard about that story a while ago, but was not up to date on the latest. Very tragic, but also an interesting case. However, are there any cases which have been seen in court, where a *properly* modified vehicle owner was in trouble with the law? Different size calipers on the same axle is so glaringly stupid, that guy deserves what he got. And the exact same thing could have happened to a completely stock Vauxhaul Vectra where the owner for some stupid reason cheaped out and put the wrong caliper on an axle. I really don't see how this is a question about modifications as much as it is a question of poor maintenance.

And, was he sentenced for the condition of his vehicle? Sounds like the actual sentence was for dangerous driving, and the modifications are besides the point?

It's a pretty poorly written article, that has clearly been sexed up. ie: the use of the word "cannibalising". Is vehicle recycling not common over there? Do people not use spare parts to keep their MG's on the road?

How can brake pedals be worn? Is it supposed to mean pads, but the journalist has no idea what they're really talking about? Yes, that is the case, I found another report that stated the rear pads were down to metal.

This is not a case where the guy was found guilty of driving modified vehicle. He was found guilty of driving a poorly maintained vehicle, and doing so dangerously.

 

[bobtail4x4]

I know Gresh well, and knew the kids who died.

he still maintains he was run off the road, by an oncoming van, (the one with 10 winesses who all "somehow" gave the same story)
the different callipers looked identical but the machining was different, an easy mistake,
they also made a big thing aboput the frame not being the original one, the old one rusted out and was swapped.

as Noni said you still see modified cars over here every day, but when an accident happens they look at them closer............

 

[Rocket Ship]

Interesting perspective. Didn't he feel the pull? That's a standard test I run. You should be able to stop hard with your hands off the wheel, without having the vehicle slew all over the road. Minor allowance are made for road-crown, etc.

What about the rear pads being worn to the pads?

What's the truth about the allegations that he had repeated problems with the rear suspension links in the weeks prior?

Not intending to re-try him here, but it's a very interesting case to me, and I'd love to have better details than what was provided in the media.

 

[Nonimouse]

If you took a brand new defender off the line our Crash Investigation Team vehicle examiners would find faults with it...

How often do we put off doing stuff to our Land Rovers - or as Frank Elson says wait until we have a round tuit

 

[Rocket Ship]

If you took a brand new defender off the line our Crash Investigation Team vehicle examiners would find faults with it...

Find faults, maybe. But it better darn well pass the tests to which it was certified, or somebody has some 'splaining to do. I'm not sure what test regimen the OEM's need to pass in the UK, but in the US, it's FMVSS.

But it reminds me of something that irritates me. Take a new car that passes the tests, and replace the tires with 100,000 mile guaranteed "Iron Ride" economy radials from Walmart, and it will fail those same tests. Yet, nobody would question the owner of the car if they had an accident.

 

[Nonimouse]

The Police tests are so high that they surpass the Manufacturers tests - then in the coroners court they give reasons to the fail - like tyre wear

 

[Snagger]

I ran the fuel savings costs out and never really saw a break even point unless I could get free fuel.
... I ran the numbers again with 2007 fuel prices and figured I could not pay for the swap out of fuel savings between rebuilds.

Fresh diesels are expensive and you never know what may have happened to a used one before it got removed from the vehicle it was in. You can never know the mileage on the engine or timing belt as a certainty. If it has been badly overheated or if the oil had ever been changed. I believe a used engine is like a buying a pig in a poke. You never know what's inside until after the seller has walked away with your money in his pocket.

These are the key points. The cost of an engine swap purely for fuel economy outweighs the cost of the higher fuel consumption of a petrol engine for about 10-15 years for the average owner unless you get a very cheap, second hand engine. There are some good ones out here, but most Tdis have done well over 100,000 miles and have probably been neglected too, with infrequent servicing, cheap oil (when changed) and possibly run for some period on dirty used vegoil or other substitute fuels. Most will not have had their injectors serviced or changed ever, let alone on schedule, which results in piston damage. Many will have been tweaked for more fuel delivery to increase performance, causing more wear and stress, and not many would have had the turbos looked after properly. this means that the cost of rebuilding the engine before fitting has to be included in the financial assessment.

It's incredible how most UK (and presumably US) owners will throw a Tdi (or other) transplant in without any apparent care as to its condition. They're robust engines, but not indestructible. Mine had a fairly new head on it when I bought it second hand, so I removed it. The damage I found to the no1 piston and bore was considerable - it had seized and broken free, leaving heavy scoring on one side, but though the last user of the donor Discovery had the head rebuilt, they ignored this damage. The belief that listening to the engine idle on a quick test run is a way to assess the condition of the engine is misguided - mine ran fine but was in no condition to be fitted to the 109...

 

[Nonimouse]

My last three 200Tdi's have been exceptional but I was lucky. However I budgeted for top end re-builds, injector refurbs etc All labour intensive.

I would never buy a 200 or 300 that had been run on Veg oil (or any diesel for that fact).

I always check the pump settings - easy to spot luckily

Same goes for a V8 though - I'm on the look out for a 110 V8 with an LPG conversion at the moment.

I'm lucky, I grew up with Land Rovers so I have a good idea of their foibles - added to which I live in their home country...

By the way do any of you guys know anything about the 2.5 Diesel XJ Cherry?