Time for another flatty expedition build!

[trek_diggity]

After owning a few different jeeps over the past several years, i decided to try something a little different; albeit a shameless ripoff of some of the other great builds documented here and elsewhere (metcalf's "Rango", namely.

There will be a several things I will be doing differently , but that is my main inspiration, along with John Cappa's "Garage Project GPW" in JP Magazine. My overall goal is to have a low flatfender jeep that can cruise back roads as well... I don't have any delusions of making this a comfortable long-distance cruiser, but it needs to be able to handle short road jaunts.

Luckily I have a handful of Jeeps from which to choose; a 1948 CJ-2A that I picked up from my neighbor, another early flatfender that had already been disassembled, and a CJ-3B frame with a 2A body sitting on top. I am also picking up a CJ-3A and an M38 on monday, one of which runs... which doesn't really do me a whole lot of good, considering I will be totally redoing everything anyways. It was nice to be able to actually drive it around though, my first experience actually in a flat fender.
So far here's what I've accomplished... Since I'm 6'6", the flat fender jeeps don't lend themselves to my frame, in stock form anyways. I've wrestled around with just how much stretch I want, and basically decided on going 12". I have a CJ-7 that we're building for my little brother, and used to have an '86 CJ-7 that was my first jeep, and i like the proportions of them and they are fairly comfortable.



After checking the frames that I had, I decided to use the CJ-3B frame because they are stronger, and don't have the two separate plies of metal to try and weld to. That, and the frame of the blue jeep appears to have about 9 or 10 separate HACKED frame repairs over the last 67 years... I started out by taking as many measurements that I could to ensure that the wheelbase was the same side-to-side, that the diagonal measurements were good, and closely inspecting every square inch of the frame for cracks, buckling, etc. I removed the welded on tow bar, a cool Koenig PTO winch and welded on mount, the motor mounts, batter tray, the mount on the bottom of the frame for the stock brake/clutch linkages, the nasty bellcrank mount and hacked in steering stabilizer mount. The rear bumper/pintle hitch mount setup in the rear will be getting fixed/reinforced, but i decided to leave that alone while i have the frame cut up... like I said, I really want this thing to be somewhat roadworthy, and I don't want to tweak/warp this frame while doing the stretch.





I figured it would be worth the $200 to have the frame sandblasted... that is, after i spent all week trying to rent one from the local rental yard, I explained to him what I was trying to do, and he casually mentioned that a guy that worked there blasted on the weekends... "well why didn't you say so in the first Place?!"
Upon picking it up, i was surprised just how good of shape the metal is in, considering its age. I know that the metal in these frames isn't the greatest, strengthwise, so I will be addressing these issues. I wrestled around with having a custom frame made, but I hope (maybe I'm dreaming) that with enough boxing, adding tube, etc. this frame will do just fine, especially once I build a cage and attach it to the frame.



A trip to the metal yard yielded some 4"x2" .188" wall tube, that, according to my preliminary measurements, should just "tap right in" to the frame rails, so i picked up 12' of it and started to prep the frame by creating several rosette weld holes. I also welded the spring and body mounts, whose rivets would interfere with the inside of the frame where the tubing will go, and then cut the rivets. I used my fancy new cold saw to cut the frame... WOW, I am amazed at just how well that thing works, compared to a regular old chop saw...

 

[trek_diggity]

once I got the frame cut in two, I tried putting the box tube inside the frame and it wouldn't go. at all. I checked the measurements with caliper, and found that I was lacking about .050" on the right-hand side, and nearly .170" on the left! I'm not sure why there was a discrepancy between the two sides, but I think that upon cutting the frame, that may have relieved any tension within the channel, along with welding on the body/spring mounts. I thought perhaps we could help the cause by using a porta-power to expand the upper and lower rails, but didn't want to get crazy and tweak anything.


Well, that didn't really do much that I could tell, so onto the grinder... I was kind of frustrated that this thing didn't just "slap together", but things rarely do, I suppose. I tried doing this as accurately and cleanly as possible, with a 4-1/2" grinder anyways... I scribed a line where it needed ground, because I wanted to preserve as much material as possible, seeing how this tubing would BE the frame in between the front and rear halves.




Finally, about 12:30 this morning, I decided that once I got the right-side fitting like I wanted, I would bring the other frame extension down to the local machine shop and have them take .085" out of each section that will be meeting the frame. In retrospect, I probably should've just done it myself, but after going through 3 grinding discs and about 2.5 hours... it may not have been such a bad idea.

As of today, I tried my hand at boxing in the front frame rails... I'm guessing that this area around where the steering box will go must be extremely accurate, considering the box should be mounted through the frame, with two VERY parallel plates? I considered actually "BOXING" it in with a different size tube than the frame extensions to ensure everything was as parallel as possible... hopefully this will work though.

 

[trust]

fascinating, thats a heck of a job you have on your hands, I cant wait to watch it all come together!

 

[trek_diggity]

well I did a bunch of tacking this evening... turns out I only have a 15 amp breaker in my garage, so the welding was an exercise in frustration... especially since my brother came over and we had two lights, an air compressor, grinder, stereo, and a power strip charging batteries. oh well, hopefully i'll have 220 in a subpanel out there soon enough.

the frame came out great! after I picked up the driver's side rail from the machine shop, I only had to take a tiny bit more out of the corner to get it into place... then it was a bunch of clamping, and about 80 tack welds. I did manage to weld one of the rosette welds and a few stitches on one corner. my thinking with this frame is, if everything was square before I cut it, as long as those same preliminary measurements are still square, everything should be kosher. I got another boxing plate cut out, and ready to be tacked as well.







my plans are to do the typical "sweet flatfender" drivetrain... buick v6 (if I can find one), SM420 (just bought one), dana 18 (already have one, or 4), CJ-7 narrow track dana 30 as soon as we find a wide track axle for my brother's jeep, and the original dana 44 from the rear of the CJ-3B with wheel adapters (spacers). I can't wait to get these other two jeeps home on Monday and figure out what else I can use from them. the M38 already has a Saginaw conversion, so I should at least be able to use the steering gear and perhaps some of the shaft/column, etc. I really dig that auxiliary battery box on the cowl, and the tool indents on the side of the body. as far as the stretch, I think i'm going to sacrifice this piece of junk to cut up and use for mockup purposes... of course, i'll save anything worth salvaging, but man this thing is eaten up:




the thing had the floors replaced once, with what appears to be some old signs? there were patch panels riveted over the cancer, and all sorts of other debauchery. BUT, at least it has a title!

 

[unkamonkey]

Good, another flatty around here. Your body doesn't look any worse than my 3B did before I started on it. Just a few weeks of cutting and welding. A lot of people go with the 3Bs because of the extra space under the hood for the motor and what ever you think you can fit in there like tools, compressers, welders. A guy over on the Early CJ5 Page has a 3B with a stroked SBC and all sorts of stuff under the hood. A sweet ride. Need any 3B parts?

 

[trek_diggity]

The main thing I'm looking for right now is a buick V6. I know they're out there somewhere!

 

[evilfij]

Are you going to box the area by the front sprint hanger? Also, why not steal the one good idea us Land Rover people have and galvanize the frame when you are done.

 

[trek_diggity]

Are you going to box the area by the front sprint hanger? Also, why not steal the one good idea us Land Rover people have and galvanize the frame when you are done.

Yeah I'm in the process of boxing the rest of the original frame.

That is a great idea, I'd like to be able to protect the inside of the frame after it's all welded... I wonder if somebody in the Salt Lake City area might be able to do that?

 

[Lecoq]

That's a cool project.

 

[locrwln]

I know you are planning on the buick v6, but I would really entertain a 4.3. I know the 231/oddfire is traditional, but they are a little long in the tooth with the last one being built in the mid '70's, whereas the 4.3 was used up until 2012(?). Pick your poison on TBI or CPFI (converted to MPFI) of course. I realize the 65lb flywheel is awesome for the low end grunt it provides, but the 4.3 is no slouch, especially in front of a SM420. I just picked up a '99 Astro van with the 4.3 (bad trans) for $300 that runs perfect. I picked it up for a future motor swap. Hard to beat 190hp/245lbft of torque stock.

Love the build and look forward to your progress.

Jack

 

[trek_diggity]

Thanks, Jack... yeah I have thought about a 4.3... the nostalgia of a buick would be awesome, but perhaps something else might be more feasible. This M38 I'm picking up on Monday has what appears to be a small block Ford in it...

 

[locrwln]

^^Yummy, SBF's are a nice option as well. Good size and great power potential.


Jack

 

[trek_diggity]

today was an awesome day... we picked up both jeeps, in fact drove one of them up onto the trailer, and drug them both home. my brother and i tooled around in the grey one for a while, and i took my dad for a drive as well. wow, i can see why people are so in love with these little things! as much as i hate how they butchered that grey one, it actually makes it not so bad to get in and out of... haha




yes, that is an elementary school desk chair...

it runs, albeit without any advance on the distributor, it sounds like.

the M38 is not in very good shape. it's pretty much on par with the rest of the bodies that i have. i'm not sure which route i want to go with it, because there are some cool M38 only things that i really like:

the tiny glove compartment.

the filler neck protector.

the auxilary battery box.

and the awesome gauge panel, that i think i'll use, regardless of which tub i use.

this one also has power windshield washers, which i think may have been added later, but it actually looks like a clean install, so it may have been factory.
but the best part of the whole thing, was this...

a warn overdrive! i didn't notice it the first time i went out there, but as we were trying to dislodge the jeep from the dirt and mud, i noticed 3 shifters in the vicinity of the t-case!
it actually has a different end cap from the other warn units that i've seen... according to hermtheoverdriveguy, there's an option to run a PTO behind the overdrive unit itself? i wonder if that's what i have.

i also figured out the mystery V8 sitting in (on the front axle) the frame of the M38... it's a Ford small block, most likely a 289 or 302. boy if i did use that, things would get TIGHT, QUICK. with it just laying in there, the hood closes, even with a taller air cleaner on it. but the oil pan is probably around 6" below the frame, and interfering with the front axle BIG TIME. speaking of front axle... check out these hubs:

does that look like an International "IH" to anyone else?
i don't want to start making plans to sell any of this stuff before i build one for myself, but i could probably make a few bucks off some of those M38 parts, seeing how they only made them for a couple of years... and i also have this thing about combining civilian and military jeeps, i don't know why. if i run a CJ spec tub, i would most likely paint it a factory civilian color, and it wouldn't feel right robbing millitary stuff to build a civilian jeep... but if i did use the M38 tub, i would totally do it in OD. only thing is, that tub is HAMMERED.

there's bondo probably an inch thick on the passenger side, along with some of the tub being ripped from the factory spare tire/jerry can holder. a LOT of rust is hiding under all that beautiful patina, but i've resigned myself to doing a lot of sheetmetal work, no matter what i do. i can probably make a decent tub out of the 5 that i have, minus the floorboards, which will probably be reproduced by sheetmetal. the full floors from kaiser willys are like $800!
any input would be appreciated... what should i do with this ford motor? keep in mind that i really would like to run a VINTAGE powertrain, that won't run into a ton of packaging hassles... i know things are tight under these little things, but i really don't want to have to deal with a lot of overheating/nothing fitting/clearancing,cutting throughout this build.

 

[Happy Joe]

Ahhh! flatties; great fun to drive! stock on the highway; not so much.
I understand the desire to stretch (my feet don't fit them well).
engine wise especiall with the ford or a buick 231 I can only say; fuel injection.
If you are a carburetor die hard keep the 2bbl that is sittin on the ford now.
Verify that you have a rear sump pan (otherwise you will likely loose oil pressue (sometimes catastrophically) on very steep climbs/obstacles.

The last flattie we built;
Postal jeep frame (mostly boxed , 1/2 ton).
Dana 44 Mail jeep, centered diff. 30 spline, flanged axle shafts, scout disks, GM (or maybe wagoneer backing plates, Gm calipers (no E-brake).
Jeep 15 gallon rear tank with CJ-5 skid plate.
Holly electric rear (feeder) fuel pump.
Dana 30 front axle, 4.27 gears (to match the 32" tires), arb, scout disks, scout 6 bolt lockouts, GM/blazer backing plates and calipers, Ford (I think)master cylinder.
Cherokee steering wheel, jeep Saginaw power steering box mated to the mail jeep frame interface (spacer) plate.
Mustang H.O. 5.0 L (302)
Ford pickup high pressue (frame) pump to drive the injection.
A friend (owner's husband) insisted on using a modified, old style wagoner radiator (I think the hack job that was necessary was a mistake).
Ford cast iron (pickup) bell housing with a T-18 mated to a Dana 20 transfer case.
Had to do some searching to find exhaust manifolds that would clear the frame & clutch.
Hanging pedals and a cable for the clutch.
Thin VW bug buckets.
V-8s in Jeeps like to overheat, if you keep the v-8 figure out a way to let the heat out of the engine compartment.

Looks like you have a challenging body, fortunately flatties are mostly flat (metal wise).

The lockout looks like the semi-automatic (2 choices locked or automatic, the automatic fuction engauges when the front axle is powered) lockout that IH used on Scouts (optional).

Enjoy!

 

[trek_diggity]

Wow, sounds like it was a good one! Didn't the LHD mail jeep frames already have saginaw steering? that's another hurdle to figure out... the M38 has a Saginaw conversion (poorly) done. I'd like to figure out what box it has on it, I hear that a mid 70s GM car box is a good one to use.

I've been compiling a list of parts I need to order for the next step...making this thing a roller. I'm going to go with the superlift 1" rear springs like Meiser did on his LCG build, and am looking for a good shackle option. Omix makes an HD shackle for 55+ CJs, but it looks like the spring mounts are different between the two. I don't want to run those c style shackles.