Time for another flatty expedition build!

[Happy Joe]

Didn't the LHD mail jeep frames already have saginaw steering?

I'm sure that they had Saginaw boxes (not certain if they were power steering). The frame we used was mostly stripped when we got it and the narrow centered D44 (jeep later switched DJs to D35c rears with the smaller bolt pattern) (came with a tracklock). The LHD steering box/adaptor/spacer plate fit on the other side and matched the power steering box that we had (likely Chevy).

For shackles I normally just cut and match drill a couple of pieces, per side, of 3/8 inch bar stock; for a deluxe shackle I round the ends. If I want grease-able shackles I drill and tap some grade 5 bolts then screw in a zerk... I rarely buy if I can fabricate.

I don't remember if we had to do anything with the mounts.

Enjoy!

 

[trek_diggity]

well this weekend went really well... spent most of Saturday boxing the frame and finish welding joints, while my brother stripped the tub that I think we'll use. we have 1/2 of the frame boxed in, for the most part.





I put up an ISO post on facebook about trying to find a motor, and came up with a couple of people that MIGHT be interested in getting rid of one, or that would keep an eye out... then a guy messaged me and said he had a Triumph TR7 with a swapped in motor. he did a tow for someone that couldn't pay him, and they gave him the car. we went and checked it out, and were greeted with some cast aluminum Holley Valve covers... it looked like somebody had gone through it , it had newer paint on the block, etc. I checked the casting number on the head, and found that this was a 1978 block and that it was originally a turbo motor. hopefully this means that it has some beefier internals (forged/stronger connecting rods, etc.?) $200 later, I came home with this:




has an offenhauser 4 bbl.

 

[trek_diggity]

I guess the next step is to finish the frame, then start saving my money for the bellhousing/clutch, and the adapter for the sm420/dana 18 adapter! i'm still trying to find a narrow-track dana 30... oh, and I also found a 1970-1971 dana 44 rear with the flanged, one-piece shafts. i'll be picking it up on Friday.

 

[Topo.Ranger]

I can take a look to see what I have underneath my '58 FC150 for axles. it would be a good little haul for you though.

 

[trek_diggity]

Thanks, inkpen. I've seen some listings for a narrow track axle in salt lake, which is about 2.5 hours... FCs are awesome! Unfortunately, those would also be closed knuckle/drum brake like I have already.

 

[locrwln]

Frame work is looking great. I knew a little bit about 231's a few years ago but its since been lost, but doesn't the turbo and 4.1l versions have the forged crank? Also, I can't remember if the turbo versions had the lower compression pistons installed. Do you know if that is the case?
.
Jack

 

[Happy Joe]

Blew up more than my share of 231s... might have been the 7,000 rpm shift points;
Flexible block webs (front to back), poor oiling, the stock oil pump relief bypasses the filter, lower main bearings could use groves, stock even fire pistons are better than expected, a MSD-6a with the stock distributor & aftermarket coil will fire the mixture adequately; if you are going to try to pull much over 200 horsepower; reliably, you will need to do some work... still have a few Kenny-Bell parts left.
Enjoy!

 

[trek_diggity]

guys, I haven't been able to find out for sure, but for some reason I thought that the turbo motors had beefier connecting rods, and forged cranks. I would like to use the offenhauser 4 bbl intake, any opinions on which carb would be best for this? i'll have to check that carb on the ford motor I have, I remember hearing that the motorcraft carbs from that era work really well on these motors... but i'm almost positive that it's a 2 barrel.

I did pick up my 1970 offset dana 44 from the junkyard today... i'm still not sure if it's the best one to use, from what I've read this uses one-piece shafts, but they are 19 spline. in order to be able to put a different carrier (locker) in it, i'd have to have custom 30 spline shafts made. right?

off topic, does anyone have an account over on earlycj5.net? I've been trying like crazy to register over there, and it's almost like they aren't accepting new members... first off, if you try registering with a Hotmail or gmail account, they ban your e-mail... finally I was able to register using an old yahoo address, then while awaiting authorization, I received an email saying I didn't meet the membership requirements, and that my account was deleted. what gives?

 

[Happy Joe]

If you are going to use it for significant off roading get a Ford Motorcraft 2100 series 2bbl.
If you want a 4bbl and want to use it for significant off roading stay away from the dual float bowl Holleys.
Of the 4bbls that I have used moderately well off road Rochesters are fair to good but relatively hard for non carb "experts" to tune (jets and rods for mixture control).
For street and mild off road uses a large Rochester 2GC 2bbl can pull nearly 500cfm (you have to get the large one, I forget the venturie/throttle bore diameter) and they are no worse than other carbs off road.
On the street and strip I tried 4 bbl carbs running in cfm from 390 through 600 cfm and the best overall performance (street drivability-no off road, not max performance strip) was in with carbs in the 450-500 cfm range, if I recall correctly.

For the best, most trouble free operation get and install an factory multipoint injection setup.

I got away from these engines in the early 1980s so I never got to play with the injected and turbo'ed versions.

Just FYI; probably the primary reason, IMO that the Jeep 225 odd fire (granddaddy of the 231 odd and even fire) worked so well off road was the very heavy flywheel.

The early Jeep D44 19 spline axles will likely be fine for carbureted use with this setup even with, very old 2 piece axles; since (I'm guessing that) you probably aren't going to pull much torque and horse power or use extreme gearing. We didn't have many problems running them with small block V-8s.
Try to get a Narrow D30 (with disc brakes) though; we had many issues with breakage in the Dana 2X series front ends. D30s can work with most 33 inch tires and moderate traction 35s (and careful driving).

I don't really remember but I believe that Dana went to 30 spline D44 axles in the early 1970s ('72 or '73?) although jeep may have still had some in the warehouse to use up.

Enjoy!

 

[trek_diggity]

Thanks, joe. Sounds like you have a bunch of good information to share. Somebody mentioned the smaller 4 bbl holley truck avenger (490 cfm?) Works really well on these motors as well.

I referenced the BOM number on the axle, and it's a 69 or 70 model with a 4.89 gear ratio. The shafts are definitely one piece, I need to just pull a shaft and look at the splines to verify if they're 30 spline. I want to run an elocker or some new carrier, so I'll need 30 spline shafts. I don't think anyone is making the full float kits for them anymore...

 

[Scott Brady]

Loving this thread

 

[Happy Joe]

Sounds like you have a bunch of good information to share

Perhaps; been doing Jeeps of one flavor or another for 30 years or so and had my fingers in many ...

The truck avenger @ 490 cfm is in the right ballpark flow wise. However; I have yet to see, especially, a 4bbl dual float bowl Holley work well in rough (very difficult to extreme terrain) off road. (The 2 bbl removable float bowl Holleys can be installed backward to releave some high angle issues)
Here is the setup that worked (sort of) in moderate terrain, on dual float bowl Holleys before "truck avenger" carbs were thought of;
Add whistles to both bowls (if the secondary does not have a block add one, use epoxy to seal the whistles) helps keep the fuel from spilling out of the vent tubes and flooding the carb on steep climbs and decents... IF this is not enough to contain the fuel you will have to use hoses or fabricate son fowarrd and rear ward vent tube extensions to contain the fuel in the carburetor.
Add jet extension tubes to the secondary jets (to keep them immersed in fuel when pulling wheelies on steep climbs.
Properly select the power valve for your altitude and driving style.
Properly jet the carb for your altitude; and carry the tools with you to re-jet and adjust every few thousand (3 or 4) feet or so of altitude change. (note; the Holley gaskets with glue will make this a real chore, re-useable composite gaskes without glue used to be available from hot rod sources; Though I actually preferred the old style cork ones as long as they were not allowed to dry out).
Adjust the float level so that the fuel barely touches the bottom of the sight hole when the vehicle is rocked/bounced.
The tradition adjustable fuel regulators do not work at all well as a bandaid to help off road carburetor issues, IMO.
Center float (almost universally Not recommended for off road) can help on bad side hills and don't seem to hurt on climbs and decents)
Be aware that spring loaded needle valves don't really help much.
Cap any auxiliary float bowl vents but keep the vent tube vents (running to the whistles).
Be aware that when you bounce over moguls the floats will bounce around and let extra fuel into the bowls eventually (often quickly) flooding out the engine (with or without spring loaded needle valves).
Especially with short wheel bases driving up steep obstacles (i.e. white knuckle, off behind the rocks trail in Moab) as well as many lesser climbs especially if rocky or moguly will be an exercise in frustration... Spent many hours backing down these, without power, to flat spots where the vehicle could be restarted for another try; before fuel injection.
Closely examine (inspect) any Holly carburetor upon receipt; especially check for excessive clearance around the throttle shafts (I received several new ones that were poorly made).

My personal opinion; (warning Harping follows)...
... after you get tired of the hassles get a 2100 ... after you get tired of the remaining hassles get fuel injection and REALLY enjoy off roading! (..done harping now...)

If you are willing to have some axles splined you can make a full floating D44 rear by using some front spindles drilling and machining them to fit the axle tubes & flanges and removing the existing axle tube bearings along with the inner spindle (needle or bushing) bearings. however we found that getting lockouts that would not unlock one side going down the highway was a BIG issue; tried 3 or four different brands (the very old style 2 lever very coarse spline lock out might have worked, if we had any). We ended up using full time drive plates instead of lockouts)... wasn't really a great idea, IMO... easier to drive to Moab or the Hammers; or to trailer it.

You should be aware that the CJ-6s (extended CJ-5s) had a reputation for flopping easier than the 5s possibly due to a combination of their length and narrow axles Although, I use narrow axles (for tire coverage) in the 7 and (crosses fingers ) haven't flopped... yet.


Enjoy! ..and keep up the good work!

 

[trek_diggity]

Today I got the rest of the frame boxed in and (almost) cleaned up/ready for paint. I also tracked down a set of wide trac axles for the cj7, so I can use the narrow D30! I'm trading some free xj axles and a free 14 bolt for them on Friday! hope to have some progress pics up tomorrow.

 

[trek_diggity]

little update... i got the rest of the frame welded up, cleaned, primed, and painted... glad to be done with that for now.
i left much of the inner portion unpainted for now, because i think i want to build one more set of plates to tie the
rectangular tube, the patch in front of it, and the factory boxing all together. and i'll be welding in motor mounts,
eventually. i also didn't paint much at the very front of the frame due to my front axle relocation... i'll be using
superlift 1" rear springs at all 4 corners.






i'm trying to figure out the best way to incorporate a winch mount, frame extensions, and a saginaw conversion all into
one tidy setup. the inside of the frame rails are approximately 2-3/4", so i figured with a 1/4" plate to serve as a
winch mount, that leaves me with 2-1/2"... trouble is, they don't make 2-1/2" tube. they DO make receiver hitch stock,
however. this is reallly heavy wall stuff, that would actually work pretty well to mount the box itself to, no need to
worry about piercing the frame and reinforcing the holes with heavy wall tubing.

i also started messing with this rear axle i picked up... the BOM says it's either a 1969 or 1970 housing with 4.89 gears.
one piece, 30 spline axle shafts... i figure this is about the best rear i can come up with, since i'll be keeping the
dana 18 transfer case.



i ordered up my springs and all related necessities to mount my axle sometime soon... and tomorrow i'll be headed to SLC
to pick up a set of wide-trac axles for my brother's CJ7. i will then rob his narrow-trac 30 for this jeep. i figure
with chromoly shafts, it should be able to handle 35s.

looks like i need to start saving up for all my adapters to get this drivetrain together... man this stuff is expensive!
i'm also having a hard time tracking down a flywheel for the buick motor... i see that AA offers one, they say it weighs
29 pounds. is it true that the original v6 CJ5s had a 75 pound flywheel? shame, i went to grab the one out at the
junkyard (where i got the axle) and someone had already robbed it, and all the associated clutch parts as well. i'd
really like to hold out for the heavy flywheel, if at all possible.

i think that i want to run a few tests on the buick before i pull it... compression/leakdown, etc. just to get an idea of
what kind of shape the motor is in. i figured that it'd be better to have a means of keeping it mobile until i know that
i'm ready to put it in between the frame rails.

 

[Happy Joe]

is it true that the original v6 CJ5s had a 75 pound flywheel? shame, i went to grab the one out at the
junkyard (where i got the axle) and someone had already robbed it, and all the associated clutch parts as well. i'd
really like to hold out for the heavy flywheel, if at all possible.

I would have guessed it at 50+ pound but they were/are heavy suckers.
Note; the jeep engines (225cid) were odd fire so any early flywheel would have to be used on an odd fire 231 (Buick/GM used both odd and even fire engines. The easiest way to tell is to look at the terminal spacing inside distributor cap, if the spark plug terminals inside are evenly spaced its an even fire., note; I have seen a few even fire engines with odd fire external terminal spacing but with electrodes on some inside the cap to bring them to the even fire positions) or be rebalanced. IMO the lighter flywheels are better for street driving (snappier engine response).

If you are going after chrome-molly shafts be sure they and stub shafts use the larger/stronger u-joints; mostly, a properly setup D30 will break the small stock u-joints well before damaging the ring gear or shafts. Get the 6 lockout bolt hubs (the ones for disc brakes will be machined on both sides of the flange the ones for drum brakes were often machined only on one side limiting disk brake retrofit possibilities) and lockouts the stock 1980s 5 bolt lockouts typically blow out well before the u-joints will go. If possible get the stock OEM lockout bolts they are slightly different than off the shelf bolts (different thread length) and will not work loose as easily.

if going to 35 inch tires you will probably have to butcher the body to get them to fit; the largest tire that I have been able to fit in stock flatty/CJ rear wheel openings, with only moderate rubbing/tire/sheet metal damage, is an undersized 32. Rear tire fitment is a major reason that some people use excessive lift (their thinking is that if its high enough the wheel opening size does not matter).
If you go with narrow axles expect 33s and 35s on standard off set wheels to rub the springs at full lock/turn in front.
If you absolutely must have 35s consider Scrambler (I believe but check out the size before ordering) rear flairs, however TJ rear flairs are cheaper & what I use to give a finished look to rear fender opening butchery (the top and front of the opening with 35s can be at or above the flat inner fender. Be aware that the rear fender openings in Jeeps are sometimes in slightly different positions.

Enjoy!