Tire chains, snow, mud, and airing down.....

sargeek

Adventurer
Tire chains

Tire chains are not the end all be all for everyone, but they are a useful winter tool. I have had a set of 4 for all my pervious trucks (Ford Bronco, Nissan Hardbody and Jeep TJ). On average, I was forced to chain up the vehicles about once every five years to get through a particular storm. During most of the events, the trucks could just make it through the snow with out the chains, but if you needed to do some additional work, like pull stuck vehicles the chains were worth their weight. Nothing like watching a TJ pull a F350 Powerstroke up a hill.

Most of the chain up experiences have been on public roads and highways not off road. Off road I usually can get away with airing down and using low pressure. The use of chains also IMHO allow for more percision driving rather then using speed and momentum to get through the snow.
 

Rando

Explorer
I have to agree with this. Having had both studded (Copper discoverer M+S) and non-studded (Blizzacks), the non-studded are as good or better on snow AND ice and infinitely better on dry or wet pavement. I think studded tires are outdated are becoming the low budget option if you can't afford good winter tires or if you require extremely large tires! I doubt I will ever go back to studs.

studs are out dated!!

a true winter perfromance tire with a heavily siped tread design will out perform a studded tire even on the slick-est ice.

Chains work well on trucks that have a hard time making enough tire spin to pump the snow from in front of the tires to behind them but if a truck can make tire spin the airing down and using tire spin will out perform chains on the same size tires.

aggresive treads on deep snow will help alot because the tread will act like a paddle wheel and pump the snow. chains will also do this but the added weight of the chains makes it harder to spin the tires so the pumping effect is reduced.

when you are spinning the tires in deep snow faster is not always better. Just like in sand there is a sweet spot where the tread shape and size relative to the type of snow will produce the best results. feel for this sweet spot and adjust the throttle for best results.

in real deep snow a serpentine driving style often helps you maintain progress compared to just driving straight. Just like in skiing but adding a small amount of constant turning you allow one side of the truck to cut through at a time and the added leverage you get by steering back and forth will produce a gracefull easier progress through the really deep stuff then just trying to plow straight ahead and break the trail with both tires at the same time.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I've run a few sets of swampers over the years. The best I have seen in the snow and ice so far are the 'SSR' series. They aren't the strongest version, but all the center lug siping really lets them perform well at low pressures.

By 'snow tires' I was referring to a specialized compound/design and/or the ability to be studded. Currently Hankook makes a tire that is pinned for studs in the 37x12.5r17 size, and maybe up to 40x13.5r17 also. I would love to try this tire fully studded with the center lugs siped and the compound softened with some tire treatment. They are radials and run big for there size also. These tires on double beadlock rims are 2-3psi should be fantastic on something in the sub 5000lb range.
 

1966ih

New member
tire chains for hard core winter trail rides

Tire chains come in many strengths & designs, just like tires. If your primary need is for emergency highway use on stock tires or slightly larger than stock tires there are a lot of places to buy inexpensive chains. For a 30" dia tire they will be built from 1/4" or 9/32" material, the cross treads will be on a 4 link spacing of the side chain and the cross treads will just be standard chain - no welded v-bars or spikes. These chains will be "general in size", built a bit on the sloppy side and require conventional side chain tensioners. They will be just fine for their intended purpose and worth their weight in gold going over a snowed-in mountain pass on the highway. You might keep them in your vehicle for 20 years before needing them. But that one time you reaaaaalllllly need them they will be invaluable.

But do yourself a favor. Don't think for a minute these can be used reliably off road in extended hard core wheeling. These types of chains are usually not robust enough, do not have enough cross treads and do not run v-bars or spikes of some sort which are necessary to create high pressure points in ice. Plus they are a sloppy "universal fit", i.e. a set will be for a "10x15" tire, cut a little big to fit ANY 10 x 15 tire, and require tensioners to keep them snug. On the jeep roads in NE PA where I wheel in the winter even the heavy duty truck type spring tensioners get ripped off inside an hour or two of trail ride. Usually without one becoming aware. I have had to use a metal detector to search the huge ice covered mud puddles for a slipped off chain because of this. These cheap chains should only be used off-road in a real pinch.

Tractor trailer chains are 5/16" material . Tougher than the China imported cheap stuff (1/4" & 9/32") sold on many web sites and stores. Cutting the 5/16" truck chains down to custom fit a specific tire eliminates need for chain tensioners and it is the goodness of fit which ultimately determines if the chains stay on your tires after the tensioners get ripped off. I do my primary wheeling in winter and found with many years of winter use to not even need tensioners once the chains are truly custom fitted to the specific tire size and brand (say a 38" Interco TSL).

The next step up is 2 link spacing of the cross treads instead of 4 link spacing like the "cheap stuff" one might have for emergency highway use. This instantly doubles the cost and weight because there are twice as many cross treads around the periphery of the tire. Again, 4 link spacing is fine for the emergency highway set of inexpensive chains. But if you plan on wheeling off-road in the winter do yourself a favor and invest in chains with cross treads at 2 link spacing. The extra grab on side hill traverses is amazing because you pretty much always have a cross chain under the tire at 2 link spacing. Too often people think tire chains are tire chains and do not even realize the difference between 4 link and 2 link spacing. Having started as a kid with little $$ running 4 link spaced chains I know from experience the huge difference between 2 and 4 link spacing on off road trails in the winter.

The next step up is welded v-bar cross chain. This design bites into ice with ease. It is about a 20% cost adder. But think about where you will be using the chains. If a trail has been run much in the winter there will be compressed snow (ice!) all over it. No matter how much you deflate your tires, rubber and ice do not mix on a 30 degree slope!! You need a localized high pressure contact point on your chains to bite into the iced over, compressed snow. Get the v-bars.

For true ICED OVER TRAILS the 2 link spacing of welded v-bar cross treads that are custom fitted is unbeatable. You will be running about 2.5 times the weight of chain per tire than the "inexpensive emergency highway style". But you will get trouble free ROBUST off-road reliability.

Once tires get into the 40" plus category it is time to step up to 3/8" material. This nearly doubles the cost, again over the 5/16" material. But the bigger tires put a lot more stress on the chains. If you want to play (reliably) you have to pay.

There are plenty of places that will try and sell you 9/32" non v-bar material (imported from China, too) on 4 link spacing for you 40/44 " dia tires. This is ridiculously unsafe. These are not custom fitted, require chain tensioners and are fragile indeed off-road. A 44 " tire chain like this will weigh maybe 30 pounds per tire and be priced accordingly (cheap). A properly built chain suitable for off road use on 40/44 inch dia tires will weigh in around 100 pounds, be constructed of 3/8" material, be at 2 link spacing and have welded v-bars or spikes of some sort to create high pressure bite points for ice. And these will also be priced accordingly to their weight (not cheap). Plus they will be fitted to the exact tire size and brand to prevent use of tensioners. You don't see SKIDDERS using tensioners, do you?

I saw a comment that aired down tires and wheel spin will out perform tire chains in deep snow. That is not my experience here in NE USA. Lots of people don't realize it but 4x4s running chains in deep snow (at least the heavy type usually seen in NE USA) don't even make it down to the ground if they are running a half decent size flotation tire for the weight of the vehicle. I have a 20 degree open field in back of my house where I play around in the snow. I can usually run up the hill about 3 times in the exact same tracks in about a foot of snow with chains on before I start contacting grass/earth under the snow. And with the chains I can start and stop at will anywhere on the slope. That is literally not possible without the chains. In really deep snow a bit of wheel spin is best but I keep it to a minimum. In fact, most times the trails have only a foot or less on them and a great benefit of the chains is not having to beat hell on your vehicle to run the trail. I mean, backing up and taking repeated runs to get up a modest hill. We have all done it if we have winter wheeled without chains. You make it a bit farther every time and after a number of trys might be able to get up it (or winch for a bit). But with 4 chains on you can just creep right along and not beat your rig. You are in SAFE control.

I find the most important benefit is safety on unexpectedly iced over sections of the trails, particularly on compound angles. Here in NE USA we have a lot of springs that flow/seep slowly out of the side hills across the trails, even in sub zero weather. They cover the trail for maybe 10 yards up to 200 yards. One spot is almost 1/4 mile and sloped between 15 and 25 degrees for it's entire length. Unless there happens to be snow cover on it one can not even stand on it. One of my buddies got out of a chained 4x4 which had already gone up it to watch me go up it and he fell and slid about 100 yards until he caught himself on the front bumper of my truck or he would have slid under it! Usually there is snow over the ice there and it is not so visible. If a 4x4 that came in on another trail tried to exit down this specific trail without chains they would be in for a dangerous slide.

Another feature common to my area of NE PA are spring fed, frozen over mud puddles. Even in sub zero weather the ice is only 3 inches or so thick. The spring fed nature of these keeps them from freezing solid. Sometimes the smaller 4x4s can sneak across without breaking through but the full size rigs bust into it. Most of these mud holes are only 2 to 4 vehicle lengths long. Some are 10 to 20 vehicle lengths long. By definition (mud puddle frozen or not) they are on flat ground. These mud holes are awesome places to wheel in the wet seasons and it is not unusual to see a decent trail rig with 36" dia mudders have to winch once in a while in them. Now change the scene to mid winter and add 3" of ice over the mud hole with maybe 1/2 foot of snow on top. No chains, no go. It is that simple.

Every year I am lucky in regards to having a new youngster or two come into the group to winter wheel. I can sure use the younger horsepower to help keep the trails clear (chainsaw fallen trees etc). I have learned to always make them leave their trucks home on the first winter trip so they can get the full flavor of the trails before risking their own 4x4s and themselves. Invariably, they are always eager to try running the trail in their own rigs later that winter and invariably, being kids, they don't have chains due to cost and "priorities" (girlfriends and lockers in that order). A typical rig this year was a 98 XJ with nice 33" dia mud/snow treads or a CJ with 35" tires. They air down at the trail head and are pretty confident they can at least do a portion of the trail before needing help. They get about 20 yards up the first 10 degree ice covered incline right at the trail head, unexpectedly turn sideways, touch the brakes and slide gently back down to the trail head. Some take a 2nd or 3rd try but they all eventually park their rig and get into the other chained up rigs. Lesson learned. 20 yards. They turn a bit red and say something like "I never realized airing down is THAT useless". The one trail is 9 miles one way. They didn't even get to a "tough spot" on the trail. The next year they have chains.

Before the ground really freezes hard (mid winter) the need for chains is much less and we have all seen videos with 1/2 decent trail rigs running on soft but snowed covered terrain. You can seen the mud and soil squishing underneath their tires. I love seeing snow and mud mixed together! But once the ground really freezes hard this wheeling comes to a stop without tire chains.

If you want true off road chains fitted to your exact tire size. brand and model, for tires up to 52" dia that will last you a decade or two of repeated winter trail use, check out CLOTHIERTRACTION.COM. Their raw material is 100% American Made, Case Hardened Chain, 100% fabricated in USA, not some cheap, undersized junk imported from China.

Check out this short video clip: http://www.youtube.com/user/1966ih#p/u/21/v15zbsZC9GQ


and visit this web site:http://www.clothierproducts.com/default_site.htm

Regards

1966IH
 

007

Explorer
Thank you for that detailed explanation, you obviously have plenty of experience in the matter!

People that haven't used good v-bars on all fours or spent every winter wheeling don't realize how well chains work.

If people like challenging trails and adventure, they should love winter wheeling!

Thanks for the links and welcome to the expo! :)
 

Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
x2.

Great post & welcome.

Tire chains come in many strengths & designs, just like tires. If your primary need is for emergency highway use on stock tires or slightly larger than stock tires there are a lot of places to buy inexpensive chains. For a 30" dia tire they will be built from 1/4" or 9/32" material, the cross treads will be on a 4 link spacing of the side chain and the cross treads will just be standard chain - no welded v-bars or spikes. These chains will be "general in size", built a bit on the sloppy side and require conventional side chain tensioners. They will be just fine for their intended purpose and worth their weight in gold going over a snowed-in mountain pass on the highway. You might keep them in your vehicle for 20 years before needing them. But that one time you reaaaaalllllly need them they will be invaluable.

But do yourself a favor. Don't think for a minute these can be used reliably off road in extended hard core wheeling. These types of chains are usually not robust enough, do not have enough cross treads and do not run v-bars or spikes of some sort which are necessary to create high pressure points in ice. Plus they are a sloppy "universal fit", i.e. a set will be for a "10x15" tire, cut a little big to fit ANY 10 x 15 tire, and require tensioners to keep them snug. On the jeep roads in NE PA where I wheel in the winter even the heavy duty truck type spring tensioners get ripped off inside an hour or two of trail ride. Usually without one becoming aware. I have had to use a metal detector to search the huge ice covered mud puddles for a slipped off chain because of this. These cheap chains should only be used off-road in a real pinch.SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



If you want true off road chains fitted to your exact tire size. brand and model, for tires up to 52" dia that will last you a decade or two of repeated winter trail use, check out CLOTHIERTRACTION.COM. Their raw material is 100% American Made, Case Hardened Chain, 100% fabricated in USA, not some cheap, undersized junk imported from China.

Check out this short video clip: http://www.youtube.com/user/1966ih#p/u/21/v15zbsZC9GQ


and visit this web site:http://www.clothierproducts.com/default_site.htm

Regards

1966IH
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
1966ih,

I agree good post and a valuable addition to the thread.

I have a few questions for you...

-What did the new guys air down to? For the group I wheel with 5psi is a good starting point and 2-3psi seem to be best.

-Maybe the snow is really different out here, but in general with the large flotation tires at low air pressures we are trying to get to a 'magic' spot where the diffs are no longer dragging in the snow. Sometimes no matter what you do, how light you are, and how big of a tire this won't happen, but when it does the difference is amazing. The only thing that really stops us then is drifted out sidehills....

P1010201Medium.jpg


-In my experience with chains I can never get the same 'float' that I can with big tires and little air. The chains always seem to dig too much. I have never been able to run chains with less than 10psi or so. They just don't act right. Any tips or tricks from anyone on low air pressure AND chains? And since I can't get the float, the diffs start dragging, and then you stop moving forward once the snow piles up enough against the axles and front bumper. With REALLY loose snow I have been able to push snow over the hood and keep going, but once the snow firms up a bit and starts packing chains always seem to dig too much?
 

craig333

Expedition Leader
I've wished I carried chains. I'll admit I"m a flatlander. Two years ago I had my my truck in some mild snow. Afternoon and it was slushy and icy underneath. I was not high centered. I had no chains and no decent shovel. Open diffs too. After two hours of digging and no progress I gave up (yes digging for hours more probably would have got me out). I figured in the morning when it froze i could probably drive right out. Popped the top, had a good meal and in the morning I did just drive right out. If I'd have chains I'd have slept easier.
 

1966ih

New member
tire chains for hard core winter trail rides

The kids only aired down to 10 psi or so. But on this type of "frozen earth" ice you can forget about "sipped tires" (did I spell that right?) and surface area. In this arena it is all about pressure points and biting in. I rarely air down with chains. I usually run highway pressure. We rarely have drifts deep enough to stick a vehicle and the snow in NE USA tends to be a lot heavier than out West and there is frequently dense compressed snow/ice under it all. Ask any down hill skier who has worked both West and East coasts!!! So, instead of high centering a lot in deep drifts one just tends to not be able to get traction and move. Tires spin and not much else happens. Toss in the typical intermittent 25 degree hill and you are either winching or not going anywhere. The photo of the jeep on the side hill spells a crystal clear situation where true off road tire chains would be worth their weight in gold. Without the chains as one tries to cross they tend to keep sliding down. Out comes the winch. With properly built chains, especially the 2 link spacing, and a slight uphill attitude such crossings become fun, not work.

I agree completely that the chains will cause a certain amount of "dig in" (lack of float per se). But watch the video very carefully. There is two feet of snow but the tires don't sink in past the rims. Maybe 8 to 10 inches of penetration. A lot of that is due to the huge tire size (49 inch Iroks) causing flotation despite the chains natural digging action. The proof is right there to see. http://www.youtube.com/user/1966ih#p/u/21/v15zbsZC9GQ And this is digging up a 25 degree hill, not joy-riding on some flat surface. To some extent, especially with the 2 link spacing of cross treads, tires wrapped in steel like this become PADDLE TIRES to a certain extent and with a little bit/moderate wheel spin snow flies out behind the tires and the vehicle moves forward much like a paddle tire on deep sand. Look at the video and you will see a small "spray" on a consistent basis. Staying with the paddle tire thought for a minute, think about a paddle tire with TOO MANY of its paddles missing. Make it worst case - a slick with only one paddle. It would just bury itself in the sand, wouldn't it?! To get chains working correctly in deep snow you need a combination of sufficient flotation plus those extra cross treads and a little bit of wheel speed, enough to generate that small out spray of snow a few feet in back of the vehicle. Yet without the chains, despite the flotation of the 49" Iroks, the trail is impassable because the compressed NE USA snow ices up from the compression. I think the density of the snow tending to be less out West will force airing down for flotation to be more necessary, with or without chains. But, regardless, to get the "paddle wheel effect" at a reasonably safe/moderate wheel speed you need 2 link spacing. If you try and do the same on 4 link spacing you have half the cross treads and would need to double your wheel speed for the same net effect.

Sticking with the analogy, consider the depth of the paddle next. Its obvious that paddles are "tuned" to the weight and horsepower of the vehicle as well as the nature of the surface to be run on (blow sand vs mud for example). But in general, if the paddles are really small they will not help much! Again, go back to the fundamentals of the chain and tire. On a black top/concrete surface the small nature of the typical "highway" style chain does not need to be big to due the job. 1/4" or 9/32 is more than enough because of what the vehicle is riding over (paved road) and the typical size of the tires (28 to 30 inch dia). But taking the same chain on a 36" tire on a softer underpinned surface (off road) the depth of bite is just too little. 5/16 inch material is much more appropriate and the v-bars not only provide pressure points should ice be encountered, they also nearly double the size of the profile (paddle height).

Around 40 inches or so the 5/16 inch material starts to become a bit small for the tires and the 3/8-v-bar becomes more appropriate for the same basic reasons.

It does not surprise me at all to hear someone say they have had a poor off road chain experience but I guarantee you it is due to the wrong chains being used. That said, these aggressive chains I am telling you about are not the thing you want to try and have on a highway doing 30 MPH in 2 inches of slush or hitting an occasional dry/bare spot of pavement. Your teeth will chatter and your truck will rattle!! You will immediately slow down to 10 mph!! But right up to the point of truly needing a TRACKED vehicle, correctly designed chains are THE way to have safe and reliable winter trail rides.

Regards

1966IH
 

Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
It is usually spelled "siped" :)

Nice post #2.

And nice big old Corn Binder in the video :victory:



The kids only aired down to 10 psi or so. But on this type of "frozen earth" ice you can forget about "sipped tires" (did I spell that right?) and surface area.

snip............


Regards

1966IH
 
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Antichrist

Expedition Leader
I can't remmeber if anyone mentioned it, with a quick scan I didn't see it, but for certain areas the debate is moot (as far as airing down/studs vs chains). You're not allowed on the roads without chains.
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/chains.htm
http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist3/departments/mtce/tireschains.htm
- This is worth noting in California; Tire traction devices shall at the time of manufacture or final assembly, bear a permanent impression indicating the name, initials or trademark of the assembling company or primary manufacturer, and the country in which the devices were manufactured or assembled in final form."
 
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Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
That is a great point. Though rarely enforced , the 'carrying chains' requirement is still there, even for 4WD vehicles. The roads are usually closed before it gets to R3, but still it's possible.

I don't care to wrestle with chains if I don't have to but they surely fill a traction need on occasion, on or off-highway.


I can't remmeber if anyone mentioned it, with a quick scan I didn't see it, but for certain areas the debate is moot (as far as airing down/studs vs chains). You're not allowed on the roads without chains.
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/chains.htm
http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist3/departments/mtce/tireschains.htm
- This is worth noting in California; Tire traction devices shall at the time of manufacture or final assembly, bear a permanent impression indicating the name, initials or trademark of the assembling company or primary manufacturer, and the country in which the devices were manufactured or assembled in final form."
 

skysix

Adventurer
I can't remember if anyone mentioned it, with a quick scan I didn't see it, but for certain areas the debate is moot (as far as airing down/studs vs chains). You're not allowed on the roads without chains

Ditto for Oregon - even in downtown Portland at times!
 

sargeek

Adventurer
Autosocks

What does everyone think about this winter traction aid, the Autosock:

9050734.jpg


AutoSock is a high technology textile cover which is a quick and easy solution for better grip when surprised by winter contitions. The product is tested and approved by international research institutions and leading car manufacturers. It is also certified by TÜV.
AutoSock is a high technology textile cover which is a quick and easy solution for better grip when surprised by winter contitions. The product is tested and approved by international research institutions and leading car manufacturers. It is also certified by TÜV.

link to video: http://www.autosox.de/AutoSockautochannel.html

Approved traction device by CDOT in Colorado for trucks to use when the chain law is in effect and the TUV in Germany.
 
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