To Sway Bar, or not to Sway Bar??
- Thread starter musicmaan
- Start date
007
Explorer
The reason it will ride better off road is two fold. First you have better articulation over obstacles. Secondly, the vehicle will maintain greater stability and traction over rough terrain due to the isolation of each tire which no longer is jarred upwards or downwards by by the opposite side.
The truck will conquer obstacles with less resistance and track better even at high speeds over rough terrain. You can focus your weighted (or outside) tire on the smoothest line and reap the same benefit a rally driver gets when doing the same mod.
The reason for not removing it are two-fold also. First would be the body roll issue. It is not a big deal in daily driving or planned maneuvers, especially with higher rate springs and stiffer shocks. Its the Immediate and surprise swerve that is the problem. When you have no time to "set" the truck up for the turn and smoothly load the outside suspension with the sprung weight of the truck. Maneuvers such as these cause poor handling due to less traction as the weight bears down on the front outside tire under combined cornering and braking. Without the sway bar resisting the shifting balance, you quickly overload one tire as the others begin to lighten . At worst you roll, at best you do unpredictable counter steering corrections as weight shifts. No matter how "used to it" you become, the emergency handling is sacrificed somewhat.
Reason two is a liability issue. You removed the bar and wrecked it. Its easier for someone to pin it all on you and not cover it now.
But it has to be done
The truck will conquer obstacles with less resistance and track better even at high speeds over rough terrain. You can focus your weighted (or outside) tire on the smoothest line and reap the same benefit a rally driver gets when doing the same mod.
The reason for not removing it are two-fold also. First would be the body roll issue. It is not a big deal in daily driving or planned maneuvers, especially with higher rate springs and stiffer shocks. Its the Immediate and surprise swerve that is the problem. When you have no time to "set" the truck up for the turn and smoothly load the outside suspension with the sprung weight of the truck. Maneuvers such as these cause poor handling due to less traction as the weight bears down on the front outside tire under combined cornering and braking. Without the sway bar resisting the shifting balance, you quickly overload one tire as the others begin to lighten . At worst you roll, at best you do unpredictable counter steering corrections as weight shifts. No matter how "used to it" you become, the emergency handling is sacrificed somewhat.
Reason two is a liability issue. You removed the bar and wrecked it. Its easier for someone to pin it all on you and not cover it now.
But it has to be done
SAR_Squid79
Explorer
I ran the Wab-Fab quick disconnects for a long time.
When I went to Moab in April 2007, I disconnected the sway bar to hit the trails for the week, but when we left to drive back to Chicago, I didn't feel like hooking it back up. . .
. . . over a year later, I had still never reconnected it, and it was fine, and I ended up taking the sway bar off all together, and selling the quick-disconnects.
As has been said earlier, I do run Donahoe coilovers. The only time that I can even tell that I don't have a sway bar is at freeway speeds when the bed is fully loaded with camping gear. Taking a sharp curve you'll get a little more body roll than you would with the sway bar in place. That's the only semi negative. To me it makes more sense, more of the time to just leave it off.
When I went to Moab in April 2007, I disconnected the sway bar to hit the trails for the week, but when we left to drive back to Chicago, I didn't feel like hooking it back up. . .
. . . over a year later, I had still never reconnected it, and it was fine, and I ended up taking the sway bar off all together, and selling the quick-disconnects.
As has been said earlier, I do run Donahoe coilovers. The only time that I can even tell that I don't have a sway bar is at freeway speeds when the bed is fully loaded with camping gear. Taking a sharp curve you'll get a little more body roll than you would with the sway bar in place. That's the only semi negative. To me it makes more sense, more of the time to just leave it off.
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Leaf spring vehicles rarely had anti-roll equipment years ago. The advent of coil springs changed that, largely due to the fact that leaf springs contribute greatly to suspension damping and coils contribute nothing to damping. A leaf spring vehicle without shocks will stop oscillating within a few moments once the imbalance is removed. A coil vehicle will jiggle like a bowl of Jello for a long time before bushing friction overcomes whatever got the car moving in the first place.
With or without good shocks, driving a coil sprung vehicle on the road without roll control is inherently dangerous because the steering lacks stability. Even those who have commented positively to sway bar removal have all admitted that handling changes and you have to "get used to" the way it handles. If you have to compensate as the driver, then your success or failure on the road is entirely up to you. You can no longer rely on the otherwise well engineered handling characteristics to help you get out of trouble.
Because I used my '85 Jeep predominantly for trail use, I, too, removed the sway bar after getting tired of struggling with disconnects. This improved articulation to be sure, but articulation per se is greatly over-rated. It ramped just short of 1,200, but it still got stuck regularly in the same old places. When I later built the Jeep for off road racing, I not only installed a sway bar up front to replace the stock bar, but also installed one in the rear, even though I was at the time still using leaf springs on all four corners, and even though the Jeep never had a sway bar in the back. Without the sway bars, and now weighing over 5,000 pounds, I could not travel irregular terrain at anything above moderately slow speeds due to uncontrolled weight shifting. With the sway bars front and back, I can travel the same terrain at highway speeds without loss of directional control.
Having now driven the Jeep on road and off for 5 or 6 years with sway bars front and back, I have to say that although it does not ramp the same as it used to, it still covers all the same obstacles it used to, and handles far better on and off road. I would not go back to using no sway bars for anything but a slow speed trail crawler.
With or without good shocks, driving a coil sprung vehicle on the road without roll control is inherently dangerous because the steering lacks stability. Even those who have commented positively to sway bar removal have all admitted that handling changes and you have to "get used to" the way it handles. If you have to compensate as the driver, then your success or failure on the road is entirely up to you. You can no longer rely on the otherwise well engineered handling characteristics to help you get out of trouble.
Because I used my '85 Jeep predominantly for trail use, I, too, removed the sway bar after getting tired of struggling with disconnects. This improved articulation to be sure, but articulation per se is greatly over-rated. It ramped just short of 1,200, but it still got stuck regularly in the same old places. When I later built the Jeep for off road racing, I not only installed a sway bar up front to replace the stock bar, but also installed one in the rear, even though I was at the time still using leaf springs on all four corners, and even though the Jeep never had a sway bar in the back. Without the sway bars, and now weighing over 5,000 pounds, I could not travel irregular terrain at anything above moderately slow speeds due to uncontrolled weight shifting. With the sway bars front and back, I can travel the same terrain at highway speeds without loss of directional control.
Having now driven the Jeep on road and off for 5 or 6 years with sway bars front and back, I have to say that although it does not ramp the same as it used to, it still covers all the same obstacles it used to, and handles far better on and off road. I would not go back to using no sway bars for anything but a slow speed trail crawler.
Redline
Likes to Drive and Ride
Rear & Front Anti-Roll bars
My '06 4Runner has anti-roll/sway bars on both the front and rear.
After my suspension was initially installed my front bar was contacting the bottom of the spring cups (because of an improper install). I solved this problem with a Downey relocation kit, but before the kit arrived I temporarily removed the front anti-roll bar.
My front springs were stiffer than they are now because I didn't have my front bumper, winch, and skids on the car yet. Without the front bar the car drove okay, certainly not 'tight' but I could manage it. Not ideal for on-highway for sure, manageable yes, but what about emergency maneuvers? When the Downey (FJC) relocation kit arrived the front bar went back on.
Later, thinking that most of the articulation I have available is on the rear axle, I removed the rear anti-roll bar. I didn't do any before/after test to see what I gained (if anything) but I surely had as much articulation as my set-up could handle because at max stuff the 255/85s would just barely rub the inside/top of the fender wells.
The rear of my car has even more weight added than the front with a bumper, spare tires, and gas. But I have air-springs inside the rear coils to support the extra load which is a bit much for the medium rate OME springs. I can't even remember when I removed the rear bar or find it in my log book but it has been months. I got 'used to it' and generally don't fly into turns when on-highway, but the added weight, some of which is relatively high, could be felt shifting on freeway on-ramps.
Reading this thread I started giving thought to also removing my front anti-roll bar to see how the car handled. IFS is new to me (my first 4x4 with it) and with the front bar 'on', both on and off-highway, it does feel as if the front suspension travel is inhibited to the detriment of ride quality.
Certainly I want the best off-highway performance I can get, but not at all costs. The primary reason I sold my Jeep Rubicon in favor of this 4Runner was to have a 4x4 that was much nicer and more comfortable to drive on the road. I wanted getting to the trailhead and taking long trips to be very comfortable. I don't want to be abel to simply ride this horse, but want the saddle to be an excellent fit. The ergonomics of the 4Runner are much better for me than my LJ.
I started thinking about the regular strong winds we have here in Nevada and my desire to have a very capable 4x4 that is still an excellent on-road car... before pulling the front bar I decided to put the rear bar back on yesterday. A short test drive around town last night clearly demonstrated the advantages of having the rear bar on, the 5,500-lb car leans and shifts less. I did some practice emergency avoidance maneuvers on a secondary highway at about 50-MPH, a fast/sharp steer to the left into the oncoming lane then immediately back to the right, tires howling while at the edge of their traction, and some slight sliding. Surely this type of emergency maneuver is handled MUCH better/easier with the anti-roll bars on, and this was only about 50-MPH, not 65+ like we often drive.
With the rear bar attached the car turns much nicer, even in slow turns where there doesn't seem to be any 'sway' the rear seems to cleanly track behind the the front, following the front axle’s steering input instead of trying to counteract the front's change in direction with the rear weight pulling to the outside of the turn.
Adding the rear bar made me remember how 'tight' the 4Runner felt when it was new and stock. The car simply railed round sweeping turns. Of course the 4th Gen 4Runner is pretty low and wide and is designed to drive very well for a relatively heavy, body-on-frame 'truck'.
For now I'm gong to leave both front and rear bars ON for several more miles of testing.
My '06 4Runner has anti-roll/sway bars on both the front and rear.
After my suspension was initially installed my front bar was contacting the bottom of the spring cups (because of an improper install). I solved this problem with a Downey relocation kit, but before the kit arrived I temporarily removed the front anti-roll bar.
My front springs were stiffer than they are now because I didn't have my front bumper, winch, and skids on the car yet. Without the front bar the car drove okay, certainly not 'tight' but I could manage it. Not ideal for on-highway for sure, manageable yes, but what about emergency maneuvers? When the Downey (FJC) relocation kit arrived the front bar went back on.
Later, thinking that most of the articulation I have available is on the rear axle, I removed the rear anti-roll bar. I didn't do any before/after test to see what I gained (if anything) but I surely had as much articulation as my set-up could handle because at max stuff the 255/85s would just barely rub the inside/top of the fender wells.
The rear of my car has even more weight added than the front with a bumper, spare tires, and gas. But I have air-springs inside the rear coils to support the extra load which is a bit much for the medium rate OME springs. I can't even remember when I removed the rear bar or find it in my log book but it has been months. I got 'used to it' and generally don't fly into turns when on-highway, but the added weight, some of which is relatively high, could be felt shifting on freeway on-ramps.
Reading this thread I started giving thought to also removing my front anti-roll bar to see how the car handled. IFS is new to me (my first 4x4 with it) and with the front bar 'on', both on and off-highway, it does feel as if the front suspension travel is inhibited to the detriment of ride quality.
Certainly I want the best off-highway performance I can get, but not at all costs. The primary reason I sold my Jeep Rubicon in favor of this 4Runner was to have a 4x4 that was much nicer and more comfortable to drive on the road. I wanted getting to the trailhead and taking long trips to be very comfortable. I don't want to be abel to simply ride this horse, but want the saddle to be an excellent fit. The ergonomics of the 4Runner are much better for me than my LJ.
I started thinking about the regular strong winds we have here in Nevada and my desire to have a very capable 4x4 that is still an excellent on-road car... before pulling the front bar I decided to put the rear bar back on yesterday. A short test drive around town last night clearly demonstrated the advantages of having the rear bar on, the 5,500-lb car leans and shifts less. I did some practice emergency avoidance maneuvers on a secondary highway at about 50-MPH, a fast/sharp steer to the left into the oncoming lane then immediately back to the right, tires howling while at the edge of their traction, and some slight sliding. Surely this type of emergency maneuver is handled MUCH better/easier with the anti-roll bars on, and this was only about 50-MPH, not 65+ like we often drive.
With the rear bar attached the car turns much nicer, even in slow turns where there doesn't seem to be any 'sway' the rear seems to cleanly track behind the the front, following the front axle’s steering input instead of trying to counteract the front's change in direction with the rear weight pulling to the outside of the turn.
Adding the rear bar made me remember how 'tight' the 4Runner felt when it was new and stock. The car simply railed round sweeping turns. Of course the 4th Gen 4Runner is pretty low and wide and is designed to drive very well for a relatively heavy, body-on-frame 'truck'.
For now I'm gong to leave both front and rear bars ON for several more miles of testing.
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Redline
Likes to Drive and Ride
Your post and Madizell's got me seriously thinking about safety and handling on my 4Runner. Before I went wild removing the front anti-roll bar, I decided I should re-mount the rear bar and see how well the 4Runner handles. Both bars on, then both bars off might tell a very different story than being accustomed to having the rear bar off then pulling the front.
A few years ago I successfully handled a last-second emergency freeway maneuver at night while driving my F350. The traffic was very light as I drove through Fresno, Calif. on Highway 99 when a medium-large dog appeared in my headlights on my right, moving into my lane. I was driving with one hand on the steering wheel. I made a quick steer to the left, then back to the right and avoided hitting/killing the dog (might have broken something on the truck too?). The truck came with anti-roll bars front and rear but I removed them several years ago, I keep them in case I buy a cab-over camper, but otherwise don’t intend to use them. The F350 is long, wide, and very stable, AND has leaf-springs front and rear. I’m very familiar with the truck and it’s a very different animal than a coil sprung vehicle as Madizell explained.
I agree that disconnects seem like the best/most versatile option. It also seems that the disconnects offered for Toyota’s are not as plentiful nor as user friendly as those offered for Jeeps.
Jeep
When modifying my ‘05 LJ I pulled the front anti-roll bar and added a Currie Anti-Rock. The Anti-Rock worked as designed but the on-road ride was too wobbly for my roads and preference. I sold the Anti-Rock, reinstalled the factory bar and used JSK disconnects. I preferred the on-road ride and control with the stock bar and disconnect, the only concession being I had to disconnect off-highway for maximum articulation.
A few years ago I successfully handled a last-second emergency freeway maneuver at night while driving my F350. The traffic was very light as I drove through Fresno, Calif. on Highway 99 when a medium-large dog appeared in my headlights on my right, moving into my lane. I was driving with one hand on the steering wheel. I made a quick steer to the left, then back to the right and avoided hitting/killing the dog (might have broken something on the truck too?). The truck came with anti-roll bars front and rear but I removed them several years ago, I keep them in case I buy a cab-over camper, but otherwise don’t intend to use them. The F350 is long, wide, and very stable, AND has leaf-springs front and rear. I’m very familiar with the truck and it’s a very different animal than a coil sprung vehicle as Madizell explained.
I agree that disconnects seem like the best/most versatile option. It also seems that the disconnects offered for Toyota’s are not as plentiful nor as user friendly as those offered for Jeeps.
Jeep
When modifying my ‘05 LJ I pulled the front anti-roll bar and added a Currie Anti-Rock. The Anti-Rock worked as designed but the on-road ride was too wobbly for my roads and preference. I sold the Anti-Rock, reinstalled the factory bar and used JSK disconnects. I preferred the on-road ride and control with the stock bar and disconnect, the only concession being I had to disconnect off-highway for maximum articulation.
007 said:
Anti-Rocks are a bit soft. That is what I use on the CJ front and back -- but -- I modified them to stiffen the action because I found they didn't do enough for high speed driving off road. They are still softer than stock to be sure, but now harder than Currie intended. Considering it is a CJ7 that weighs 5,300 pounds, the ride is pretty plush. It isn't a sports car, but at least I can push it around without losing control in corners.
aknightinak
Active member
I made a set of these years ago and found they worked well. But like a lot of other folks remarked, I went on to become lazy about reconnecting them and finally pitched the sway bar altogether.
http://toyota.off-road.com/trucks-4x4/tech/swaybar-disconnects-toyota-cheap-tricks-18343.html
http://toyota.off-road.com/trucks-4x4/tech/swaybar-disconnects-toyota-cheap-tricks-18343.html