To whom it may concern

[Jarek M]

Oh and Jarek I signed that petition and also made my girlfriend and her sister sign it as well...they looked at me like I was crazy though.

got same response from my wife, LOL!

 

[proper4wd]

You all "think" you want diesels. The reality of it is that a modern diesel vs a modern direct injected gas engine is not as clear cut of an argument as it might have been 10 years ago. The powerplants that Audi/VW, Mercedes, etc offer are "diesel" only in the sense that they don't have sparkplugs.

There are more electronics (by a long shot) on the Audi 3.0 TDI than there are on any of their direct injection gasoline engines. There are so many systems that need to function within specific parameters or else the engine will be shut down by the engine management software. For example, if the AdBlue tank runs empty, the engine will not be allowed to start. Sure, just don't run it dry. But what if the tank or lines springs a leak? If the level sensor is faulty?

The power and torque gap is narrowing rapidly as well. Advancements to gasoline fuel injection technology and forced induction have made torque monsters out of little 2.0 liter four cylinders. Apply that same technology to a larger displacement engine and the results are impressive (Ford's EcoBoost V6).

Diesel may have a very slight edge in fuel economy but that is going away as well. Emissions regs are driving fuel consumption up on diesels and advanced fuel injection strategies are driving it down on gasoline engines. This has been a gripe of the diesel pickup crowd for several years. That Cummins that got 25mpg in 2001 is now getting 13.

Now, don't get me wrong... I love diesel. I love simple, mechanically injected, one-wire operated, un-resricted, diesels. Something like the 300Tdi is the perfect balance of power, economy, and reliability. That balance isnt there with the modern engines. So.... before you go petitioning Land Rover for a diesel, think about what youre really asking for. If you're a real fan of diesel, the good ones are perfectly available.

 

[overlander]

If you want to complain to someone, complain the the US government. Their stupid non-scientifically based regulations on NOx are preventing most vehicles from being diesels.

x2. regulation shapes demand, pricing and economy of scale. forcing low sulphur diesel right after fuel spikes post katrina caused a bunch of automakers to abandone their light diesel plans. diesels wont sell when diesel is priced at or above premium. it doesnt make sense. avg consumer cares about price per mile,no matter how green they feel.

 

[proper4wd]

Here's a nice piece of reading that will familiarize you with what a modern diesel engine is all about. This is the factory training literature from VW for the 3.0TDI. It is not US specific and does not cover AdBlue (urea injection). I have a hard copy of a similar version of this that I received at Audi TDI systems school.

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_350.pdf

 

[86inch]

You all "think" you want diesels. The reality of it is that a modern diesel vs a modern direct injected gas engine is not as clear cut of an argument as it might have been 10 years ago. The powerplants that Audi/VW, Mercedes, etc offer are "diesel" only in the sense that they don't have sparkplugs.

There are more electronics (by a long shot) on the Audi 3.0 TDI than there are on any of their direct injection gasoline engines. There are so many systems that need to function within specific parameters or else the engine will be shut down by the engine management software. For example, if the AdBlue tank runs empty, the engine will not be allowed to start. Sure, just don't run it dry. But what if the tank or lines springs a leak? If the level sensor is faulty?

The power and torque gap is narrowing rapidly as well. Advancements to gasoline fuel injection technology and forced induction have made torque monsters out of little 2.0 liter four cylinders. Apply that same technology to a larger displacement engine and the results are impressive (Ford's EcoBoost V6).

Diesel may have a very slight edge in fuel economy but that is going away as well. Emissions regs are driving fuel consumption up on diesels and advanced fuel injection strategies are driving it down on gasoline engines. This has been a gripe of the diesel pickup crowd for several years. That Cummins that got 25mpg in 2001 is now getting 13.

Now, don't get me wrong... I love diesel. I love simple, mechanically injected, one-wire operated, un-resricted, diesels. Something like the 300Tdi is the perfect balance of power, economy, and reliability. That balance isnt there with the modern engines. So.... before you go petitioning Land Rover for a diesel, think about what youre really asking for. If you're a real fan of diesel, the good ones are perfectly available.

I think Adam has some valid points (i wouldn't swap my 300TDI for anything) but modern diesels are still king vs petrol, here in the UK, as in the rest of Europe, diesels are by far the most popular engines and i think 70% of all cars sold are diesel, sure petrol engines have caught up somewhat in the fuel economy stakes but i would say in equal performance a diesel will still manage a comfortable 30% improvement over a similar petrol.
Also reliability isn't an issue on quality fuel which you will get anywhere in the US or Europe.
Its for good reason that the "standard" engine available on all new Range Rovers in the UK and Europe is the 4.4 V8 Diesel. Its a superb unit and can manage a combined fuel consumption figure of 30mpg. If i could afford a Range Rover i wouldn't hesitate to go for the diesel over the petrol - its a no-brainer, and not just on economy grounds. Diesels are far more suited to SUVs than petrol, unlike say a Porsche Boxter or 911.

Roll on diesel - i do feel sorry for you guys over there!

 

[DividingCreek]

Land Rover has a turbo v8 diesel Range Rover in the Uk. This is a common rail engine and meets the latest Euro Union emissions requirements. Pretty sure that truck would pass emmissions anywhere in the world. The problem is LRNA.
In reference to Scotts comments about the 300tdi. LR put egr's and cats on the 300 for the rest of the world market in 97. Pretty sure that would have passed even in Ca in 97. The bmw engineered Td5 engine is another computer controlled engine that only came with all the emmissions equipment. Jaguar/LR NA has never asked EPA to approve any of these engines.

 

[Red90]

Land Rover has a turbo v8 diesel Range Rover in the Uk. This is a common rail engine and meets the latest Euro Union emissions requirements. Pretty sure that truck would pass emissions anywhere in the world.

Nope. You are wrong. It won't pass NOx in the USA. It would need urea injection and the extra catalyst system to do the NOx. Not a big cost concern with a RR, but the space needs to be designed in with the vehicle from the beginning.

For "lower" priced vehicles is does not make sense as the cost of the overall emissions systems becomes too high. This is why most passenger car diesel in the USA are on expensive models only. The only exception is the Golf/Jetta as they barely squeeze in under the limits as the small size allows low enough fuel consumption.

The fun part is the NOx limits are not based on science....just lies, bribes and politics...

 

[Red90]

http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=26275
Manufacturer LAND ROVER
Model Range Rover
Description 4.4 TDV8 - 2011 Model Year
CO Emissions [g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6] 398.0
HC Emissions[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6] 0.0
NOx Emissions[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6] 155.0
HC+NOx Emissions[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6] 191.0
Emissions Particles [g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6] 1.1
Euro Standard 5

Euro 5 is a limit of 180 mg/km of NOx, so it squeezes into Euro 5. Euro 6 will be 80 mg/km.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf
Current CARB requirements are 44 mg/km (70 mg/mi) on NOx.

 

[windsock]

Just interested... Why is diesel fuel more expensive then gasoline in the US? Is it related to the heating fuel cost and demand? If heating fuel can be burned with all the particulates and emission gases why can Land Rovers not be diesel and produce the same gases as emissions etc? I guess there may be scrubbers on the heating plants...?

Here in NZ we see regular diesel fuel price increases in our spring as the heating fuel demand picks up in the Northern Hemisphere. Just in the last week we saw a NZD 0.10 rise in the cot of diesel blamed on the increasing heating fuel demand up on your side of the orb. It now sits in the region of NZD 1.60 per litre. Last time I looked NZD 1.00 = USD 0.73.

 

[Red90]

I'm not sure about the USA but in Canada, diesel is cheaper in the summer than gasoline and more expensive in the winter. This is due to the heating fuel usage.

There are no scrubbers on diesel fuel heaters.... They burn cleaner than an engine, but I suspect the NOx emissions are as high.... Vehicle emissions regulations are governed by the California Air Resource Board... They set the strictest limits and companies need to produce California compatible vehicle to make money....

Most likely heating emissions regulations are lower at least outside of California. As I stated, the limits currently imposed on vehicle in California are NOT based on science and are not based on what is required for the environment. They are based on bad science and mostly politics.

 

[Red90]

My 10 seconds of Googling... seems to say that residental fuel oil furnace NOx limits are 18 pounds per 1000 gallons. If you have a vehicle that gets 30 miles per gallon and is at the CARB limit of 70 mg per gallon, that equates to 4.6 pounds per 1000 gallons, so the CARB limits are 4 times lower than the EPA furnace limits.