Too Much Weight For Reliability?

[Karma]

HI All,
A NOTE TO ALL: PICTURES HAVE BEEN DOWNLOADED. SEE POST 58 BELOW.

I’m a brand new member here. So, I’d like to say “HI”. Sorry for this long initial post.

I’m going to hit you guy’s with a difficult question I’m dealing with. Weight. Not me, my Jeep. I have an ’89 YJ, 258, soft top. It was bone stock when I bought it 10 years ago. I had a plan for building my Jeep for expedition use and it has taken me 10 years to get to the goal. I have reached the goal but this Jeep is heavy. My question is, is it too heavy?

I should post some pics to give you a better context from which you could comment. But, I just got it all together and haven't had time to take pics. I'll try to that that done this weekend.

Here is the situation: Jeep specs the curb weight at 3,200 lbs. Jeep gives it 800lbs. of load weight. So the total weight capability Jeep gives is 4,000 lbs. They also say it will pull a 2,000 lb. trailer but that a question for another day. Suffice it to say that I have 1,500 lb. Aliner trailer that I have pulled with this Jeep.

I weighed my Jeep today. It came out at 5,020 lbs!! I’m about 1,000 lbs over the maximum weight. I maxed out the load before I visited the scales. I had a full fuel tank, I was sitting in the vehicle, the roof rack was fully loaded, and the interior was outfitted for a trip. Four Gerry cans, two for water, two for gas were mounted but not filled. In other words, the Jeep was ready for a trip except for the empty Gerry cans. When filled, they will add about another 140 lbs. to the rear of the Jeep. I can’t carry passengers because the rear seat has been replaced with a Tuffy trunk and my ARB freezer/refrig resides where the front passenger seat would normally be. This is a single person machine.

I use four Pelican cases to carry my camping gear on the roof rack. For the most part I use backpacking gear to keep the weight and size down. I have fabricated custom mounts for the cases. They are very secure. The cases can removed when not needed. No bungies here. Access to the cases is by a collapsible ladder that is also carried on the rack. The total weight of the cases, filled for a trek, is 111 lbs. ,including the weight of the cases themselves. Also on the rack is a Pull Pal, a small table, a self-inflating sleeping pad, and the Gerry cans. The rack capacity is rated at 300 lbs. I am under that by about 50 lbs. The rear basket carries a cooler and a chain saw.

This vehicle is heavily modified for the purpose I envisioned. I’ll try to give you an idea of the mods but I won’t try to be complete. There is much more but of small weight significance. I have worked hard to have an adequate load capacity and still maintain a low center of gravity. What I list are those items I intended to make this weight manageable. Frankly, it weighs more than I planned.

Weight and Performance Managers
1. Cooling: three row radiator and high capacity water pump
2. Brakes: Hydraulic assist with a Vanco system; High temp pads and shoes; the brakes work well with this load, about as good as when the Jeep was stock (Aside: my trailer has brakes)
3. Suspension: Skyjacker 2 ½ inch lift. The springs still have curvature. They are not maxed out but I am loosing lift. May upgrade to OME or custom from Alcan designed specifically for this load. I won’t go higher than 2 ½ inches (loaded) or larger than 31’s. I want to follow the OME formula.
4. Engine: Howell TBI fuel injection with Safari snorkle; otherwise it is stock
5. Electrical: Dual Odyssey deep discharge batteries and 160 amp alternator. Important for the winch
6. Front bumper: Warn with winch mount. The winch is a Warn 8270
7. Rear Bumper: Tomkin with swing out carrier and rear basket. There is a hitch receiver
8. All axles are upgraded to high strength units
9. U-joints: Front u-joints upgraded, front drive shaft stock; rear drive shaft is a custom Tom Woods SYE with CV joints.
10. Diffs: Ratio: 3:54; front and rear ARB locked; Front is Dana 30; Rear; Dana 35
11. Transmission: NV3550; better load rating than the stock AX15
12. Clutch: Centerforce
13. Fuel tank; stock 15 gal. Can’t do much about this.

Well, what do you think? Will this Jeep be reliable and useful especially in off road situations given the weight? I have driven a local, rocky trail with the full load. The Jeep performed well but it is the long haul trails that are important. What is your experience? I am also concerned about highway use since this Jeep is never trailered. I appreciate your ideas and thoughts.

Thanks, Sparky

 

[dzzz]

I think you broke an unwritten rule by weighing your built jeep. That's more of a Toyota owner thing.

 

[Root Moose]

I've wrestled with this kind of thing with my XJ build.

I don't see your machine as being that terrible given the usage. It is definitely portly but not that big a deal IMO.

The axles are the weak link in your configuration. If it were me I'd look at upgrading the axles to Dana 44s as a minimum. A set of axles from a Grand Wagoneer (FSJ) would be a decent fit I'd think. Maybe do a Ford 8.8" or 9" rear axle instead of a Dana 44.

With 31s you should gear the axles to 4.10:1 ratio to work with the over drive top gear in the NV3550. If it were my rig I'd consider doing 4.27:1 or even 4.56:1 just for a little more "oomph" and to help when loaded as you are and pulling the trailer at the same time.

There is a full float conversion available for the Dana 35. I would not do it personally as the axle housing itself is not really up to the task without some intervention. On my XJ I have the Warn full float axle conversion on the Scout II axle I have in the back. Again, I wouldn't do that again for the same reason (plus the kit is no longer available - Randy's bought Warn's axle assets and has no plans to produce the full float kit again).

I'm gearing up to build my YJ this winter. I am planning on putting in a full float 9". Apparently Schreiner will make you a full float 9" axle of whatever width or bolt pattern that you want. I haven't contacted them yet as unlike the XJ build I plan to make the axles the last part of the build up. I have a Dana 44 from another project that I will use in the front.

HTH

 

[justinhw]

Hey Sparky,

Well though out post. I'm not as experienced as many of the members here, but I thought I'd share my thoughts.

It seems you have a well thought out rig for what you plan to do with it - that's awesome. However, you're correct in being concerned with exceeding gross vehicle weight (GVW) rating of the truck.

My opinion is that GVW is rated for maximum capacity maintaining safe braking, handling, and structural integrity. I assume with your brake upgrade will help one of the problems. Handling will benefit from distribution of load (both front/back, as well as keeping it low). Where I would be worried though is the effect of a excess amount of weight on the structure of the truck; i.e. body mounts or any other load bearing structures.

I'm not familiar with your 2.5inch lift, but I assume the stiffer springs will give some increase of GVW - the suspension may be able to cope with the excess weight although it wouldn't effect the metal fatigue on body, axles, or body mounts.

Again, I don't have much experience with it, but I wouldn't think you'd see any problems now, or even in 5-10 years; but in the long run the extra strain on metal may cause problems down the line. Especially if you're going to be away from help, it's something to calculate.

Hope it helps,
Justin

edit - Root Moose already talked about power and gearing, so I didn't really go into it

 

[Patman]

Upgrade the axles to dana 44s when they break and maybe think about going to a 33.

Otherwise it sounds great

 

[wADVr]

There might be a thing or two I missed but..

And this is XJ based experience so I think the ratings might be a bit higher from the factory but the axles remain the same.


my personal opinion is:

the weight seems a bit high for a basically stock rig on 31s... My whole family (4 people w/ dog) loaded into a significantly armored XJ on 33s for a week on the Rubicon was about under 5400lbs.

i wouldnt worry about the front axle unless you are going to go bigger than 33s later. A set of spicer shafts with the stronger spicer 297/760 joints and carry a spare hub and call it a day.

The next two suck because you already have the ARBs and they wouldnt be reusable but i think you are going to find it necessary at some point.

I would ditch the D35 and get a D44 or a disc braked 8.8

And while i was at it upgrade to at least 4.10:1 gears (8.8s can be had with this ratio) especially with the trailer.

I think youre right on with OME or Alcan springs. i would also mention Bilstein shocks for added stability. the OME shocks are a bit soft and with that much weight a stiffer shock will help alot.

 

[Root Moose]

If he sticks with the Dana 30 he can re-use his ARB if he buys new case halves. This is what I did with my 44. It may be more cost effective to sell the ARB complete and then order a new one though. Or keep the ARB around for a future project.

 

[SAR Jeepster]

My Jeepster weights 5800lb I weighed it to have Alcan make springs to handle the weight. I have had Dana 44's front and back for years. The front has worked great with little modification. The rear has been a different story. I started with a Dana 44 from 89 Jeep Grand Wagoneer and it seems the bearings were too small for the weight. In time I bent the housing and replaced it with a trussed from 89 Jeep Grand Wagoneer. I still had problems with the bearing going out often and bent that housing near the ends. Know I run a Solid Axle Industries High Pinion Full Floating Dana 60. All of the spring mounts have been replaced with stronger ones and the frame has been reinforced. I have 4 wheel disk brakes with a Hydroboost system.

In the current configuration everything works well and I have had no problems with the weight. Most of my trips now I am also pulling a trailer and have very good stopping power with no worries about weak axles.

 

[Karma]

HI All,
Thanks for your time and ideas. I'm going to respond to each of you individually.

To dzzz: Well, I don't know what to say. I had to weigh it to get the necessary info for a new custom suspension. Besides, I am very anal.

To Root Moose: You would tell me to ditch the Dana 35 even if the Jeep were bone stock. Right? Sorry, but I don't buy into that. As for gear ratios, I'm not sure that is a problem. Remember we do have 5 speeds. Just down shift when necessary. It doesn't matter where the gear reduction occurs. At low speeds, this Jeep is a demon. It will idle down to 300 RPM and actually have power. This, along with the 31's give a very good effective crawl ratio. I have a Tera Low transfer case. It's crawl ability is good.

I'm very reluctant to change to another diff due to the expense. It will have to prove to me that it's a problem before I do. I have been wheeling this Jeep for 10 years on the stock locked Dana's with no problems. Most of the 5200 lbs. were already installed. Remember, the axles have been upgraded. I think a Dana 60 is unnecessary overkill. And they are very heavy. I only have 31's and will not go bigger.

To justin hw: I think long term fatigue is a concern. But I don't know what to do about it. This Jeep is completely rust free which is a big positive for long term health.

Patman: Upgrades to Dana 44's. Answered above. Very expensive when you include the ARB's. I also said I have no plans to go to 33's and all that entails. As I explained, a primary goal was to keep the center of gravity low. 33's, along with the necessary lift would counter that goal. I won't do it.

To T&A-XJ: I made it a point for my post to concentrate on weight, not all the mods I have done. This is far from a stock Jeep, as you implied. For example, in order to help make up for the modest lift, I have installed a plethora of skid plates, as many as I had room for. A lot of weight is concentrated here. Again, changing diffs is not in the cards at the moment, maybe ever.

For sure, if I upgrade the suspension, shocks are a must.

To SAR Jeepster: Your Jeepster is over 600 lbs heavier that my YJ. That's a lot. I gleen that you approve of my hydraulic boost brakes and my heavy duty pads and shoes. My brakes are good, very good. I don't place much enthusiasm on rear disks. Most of the braking occurs at the front, therefore, most of the heating. Disks are important on the front. I would never use disk brakes as a reason to change the rear diff.

Here are my thoughts on your thoughts: Each of us will build a different Jeep depending on the intended use, budget, mechanical skills, and prejudices. When you comment here you should assume I have thought this Jeep out carefully. I know most of you, for example, would go to larger tires and more lift than I have used. Costs are not much different, unless you go SOA (not my favorite solution), so I must have had a definite technical reason for my decision.

There are big advantages to doing that. But there are also problems. Center of gravity is ruined. Your Jeep will be tippy and unstable especially if it has a loaded top rack. It will not do off camber well. It will roll easily. Braking is screwed up as is the steering. Gear ratios need to be modified. None of these things are true with my Jeep although I did have to improve the braking power due to, mostly, the weight of the tires and wheels. And my Jeep has proven time and again it will go anywhere I want to go. That is the the measure of an expedition design. But, it won't go everywhere. All builds are studies in trade-offs. Rock crawling is not a necessary part of the expedition equation unless you want it to be. I don't; at least not as a first priority. I do subscribe to the OME formula of 2 1/2 inches of lift and 31 inch tires on a Wrangler. I think the Aussies know what they are talking about.

So, please remember that I am building my Jeep, not yours. So, while I really do appreciate your thoughts, I would appreciate it even more if you remember that this is my Jeep and my build philosophy. Doomsday would be if my philosophy is wrong. This is at the heart of my original question. Try to relate to what I am trying to do not what you want to do.

I think Justin's comments were the most appropriate to my question; the long term effects of the vehicle being over weight. But, there is no clear cut answer. Only his concern. I'm concerned too.

Thanks, Sparky

PS: Today I took my fully loaded Jeep for an 80 mile highway trip with the trailer attached. It is a hilly and twisty route. I was just checking my systems. I'm happy to say that it went well. I definitely could use more power at times. 110 HP, reduced by 7000 feet of elevation, makes that little sucker huff and puff. But the Jeep and trailer was stable, and well behaved and the cooling was fine in the 90+ degree temps. I'm happy. I just can't be in a hurry. But, what the hell, it's a Jeep!!!

 

[Warhead]

Well, what do you think? Will this Jeep be reliable and useful especially in off road situations given the weight?

so you have been building this jeep for 10 years and you have not figured out if it is "reliable and useful"?
I am at a loss for what you are asking here?, others have posted some good suggestions.
If you want to safely increase GVW heavier duty axles with larger brakes are your next step, along with some stiffer springs.

 

[Root Moose]

You would tell me to ditch the Dana 35 even if the Jeep were bone stock. Right?

No, that would be silly. I suggested replacing the axles because they are way over stressed since your so much heavier than your GVWR. If you haven't had problems with bearings wearing quickly or bent housings or whatever then continue doing what works for you.

 

[Jim K in PA]

Sparky,

First, welcome to the portal . . . :sombrero:

Second - I think your concerns about the load on the frame and body tub are unfounded. If properly distributed, and it sounds like it is (pics would be nice), the weight is not THAT much more than stock. More important, you have a YJ, which has a fully boxed frame, and a very stout tub. With your very conservative approach I think you have nothing to worry about with respect to basic structural integrity.

As to the axles, only you can determine where/when your comfort level has been exceeded. Your D30 front axle, if a high pinion, should give you no concern. If you have upgraded the axle shafts in the D30, then you have eliminated the two piece axle on the long side, which is the real weak point. As for the D35, well, that is my only concern with respect to the weight you are carrying. There is a reason that later YJs and all Cherokees with the towing option got a D44. A Cherokee D44 with the 2.5"x10" drums can be installed without epic modifications, and will provide a MUCH stronger platform to carry you far and wide. A YJ D44 is a bolt in swap, but they are harder to come by. With the D35 and 31s, it is not the axles or even the tubes that concerns me, it is that very fragile differential. And weight is what will kill that diff.

Travel, explore, and enjoy. You have a very capable vehicle.

 

[Patman]

Hi Sparky,

I completely understand your apprehension and can kind of see your reply's "feel" however I don't believe anyone was commenting negatively on your setup or your "plan", no judges, just opinions based on experience. It would help if you qualified the intended use, besides a general camping 4x4. Does that mean the dirt road to the improved KOA, or out in the middle of Monument Valley?

A "rocky" trail in my world is the Rubicon, Dusy-Ershim, etc. Hardcore are the Hammers.

As I said, "when they break" a d44 would be the logical step, cost at that point is moot within reason, as you're spending money to fix it anyways. 10 years and no axle problems is great. I come from a background much like SAR Jeeper's (wheeling wise) and a d30/35 on 31s would not last long if at all in a rig as heavy as yours. 31s are street tires in my world. That doesn't mean I look at them negatively, they just don't have the clearence.

The difference between an SUA yj on 31s and 33s is very little handling wise, and with 2.5" of lift 33s should have plenty of room. You want to stay with 31s and that's great, hence my suggestion to think about it if you're upgrading axles anyways. I have a d30 and love it (its the factory rear in my 73 Volvo 145)

 

[DT75FLH]

since you've had the jeep for 10 yrs...has it been loaded at this weight the whole time?.

the only issue I see is the dana 35.....ONLY because of the washboard roads out here...at that weight with a 35 on these types of roads I could see the axle tubes bending.

I had a pretty heavy LJ unlimted rubicon (with dana 44)and a friend with a stockish yj with the 35 rear ..we went into death valley and went around 30 miles of washboard (sucked bad)....when we hit the pavement on the second day he was loosing oil out of the rear diff (at the center section)..and I was smelling burning rubber

he bent his housing and I broke my rear trac bar bracket completly off the axle (nth degree lift kit..very well made and money!)

I was able to ratchet strap my axle in place(still moved about 2" side to side) and we limped both vehicles back home...

 

[Karma]

HI DT75FLH
Thanks for your reply. No, the weight increase has been a gradual build-up. Most of the weight was on during the first 5 years. If I use response by the engine and brakes as the measure, the biggest difference I felt was when I upgraded the tires and wheels. It was very obvious how inadequate the stock brakes had become. So, I upgraded the brakes. It was a good move.

To the others: I'm just like you-I want to go everywhere. But, I know that compromises are necessary. There is a huge spectrum of possibilities. Basically, I decided that trails that actually lead somewhere generally do not have the difficulties of the Rubicon Trail (never been there; just U-Tube) or the obstacles of Moab's most hardcore trails (been there several times; love Moab!!). So, how should I design this Jeep?

I had major storage problems just like any Wrangler. So, I decided I had to go with a roof rack which placed the weight high. This is not good for stability. To get range I needed fuel storage. I needed water storage. So, I found some very nice Gerry can holders from the Land Rover world that I modified to mount to a Garvin rack. These sit the can on its narrow side with the spout up. This arrangement lowers the height and weight. Once these four cans are in place for a trip, they never move. I siphon gas and water to where it is needed. I have self-priming siphons and they work well.

The Gerry cans, camping equipment in four Pelican cases, a Pull Pal and a ladder fills out the rack. It's not hugely heavy but is still comes out at around 300 lbs. That's a lot of weight at the top of a tall vehicle.

All my skid plates help counter balance the rack weight and lower the center of gravity. But, they add significant weight. It's a trade off. Of course, the basic tub level weight is significant with tools, winch, dual batteries, hi lift, bumpers, storage trunk, etc. I felt the only way to make all this work is to keep tire size and lift moderate. So, I saw this build as a balancing act between the necessary roof rack load, the moderate lift and tires, and the skid plates. The extensive skid plates protect the underside which will contact the ground more due to the lack of clearance. It's a trade-off.

At its core, this is a camping Jeep. I wanted to be able to support trips in the back country of indefinite length with out having to contact civilization for up to a week except, perhaps, for gas. This means I want my camping experience to have a degree of comfort, utility, ease of use, and convenience. I probably pack more stuff than many do. I would do well in a high priced Arican safari situation. There's nothing like having a dollip of ice cream from my ARB freezer/refrigerator after a hard day on the trail. Ummm, good! :ylsmoke:

So, how does this all work? Trips with my Jeep Club and friends shows that it works very well. You should remember that I never trailer my Jeep. It must do the hard work of getting to the trail head. So, highway stability is important. Often, I also pull a trailer. Good highway capability under these conditions are primary. When I take the trailer, I usually unload the Jeep and stay in an RV campground. This would be typical of Moab. All trade-offs.

While I can feel the top weight, it never feels tippy. I still have the sway bar with JKS disconnects and the JKS telescoping track bar. Yes, there are trails that I can't do. I understood that at the beginning. But, my Jeep can do things the others can't do such as very off camber situations. For the trails that actually go somewhere, such as the long Hole In The Rock trail in southern Utah, I have a good compromise. Hardcore trails are generally beyond my reach. But these trails don't go anywhere. Thus, to my way of thinking, these are not expedition trails which is what I used as my goal.

Trade-offs, trade-offs, it's all trade-offs.

Sparky