Too Much Weight For Reliability?

[wADVr]

Sorry if I affended you implying your jeep was stock. I was more refering to its weight and heavy weight bearing modifications such as a full roll cage, tube flares, rocker guards, full quarter corner protection w tube flares, much heavier axles such as D60s and heavier tires that usually yeild a 5K lb+ YJ. (none of which were listed or implied to have had in your original post) I followed that statement up with a reference to my jeep which is heavier in stock form, was armored to hilt short of a roll cage, had heavier axles, tires etc and loaded down with a whole family and their gear and only a ~200lb difference.

Guess I missed the boat on your post. Thought you were asking about the parts you had/wanted and whether or not they as well as the jeep itself would be reliable with the added weight you have added.

 

[Karma]

Hi T&A
No problem. I guess it was my fault. To your point, I do have Tomkin rock sliders and a semi-full roll cage. It is semi because it does not cover the rear of the Jeep. It is a bolt in cage and uses the stock roll bar which does cover the rear--sort of. I didn't realize you were talking about armour. My Jeep is pretty well armoured but, again, it is not a rock machine.

How do you like your Alcan lift?

Sparky

 

[jeepdreamer]

Trade-offs yes....and peace of mind?

Karma,
You are correct that all our jeep choices, builds, intentions, hopes and dreams are merely a collection of choices and desires that bend to the various pressures requiring trade-offs. I will try and add my centavos with the intent of not flogging the proverbial deceased equine.
Maybe I am wrong but the gist of your question appears more to be a search for peace of mind. Have you endangered the reliability and efficancy of your YJ by letting it become portly? Have you erred and should it be reconsidered?
I would venture that is a mild "no" in response.
All vehicles maintain two basic similarities on design. They are mechanical objects prone to normal fair wear and abuse. That is a given and part of life. The engineers of these vehicles will attempt to build in a margin of error with this in mind and in a hope of creating a vehicle that will last its expected service lifetime. There are a plethora of facets applied to this but the ones I would point out are the structural tollerances and intended uses.
If a Jeep is designed and gains an approved rating of say 3k lbs with a capacity of 500lbs occupants and cargo. That is the rating for that vehicle only where applied to its service life. There is a normal "fudge factor" engineered in that varies but is intended to provide a margin of saftey for those of us that go a little further than the norm. But there is no set number and the simple matter is the factory origninal numbers are based on well maintined, finite lifespan, OE equipment.
All of the suspension components of your Jeep have a technical and a real world maximum. While the springs may be rated to carry vehicle load + people and small load...who can say they are still servicable after 15+/- years of use? The axles, based on principle of mathmatics and engineering tables have an estimated load rating. This is generally explained as the maximum amount of weight that can be applied before failure or loss of service life is encountered. Try as they may they can not duplicate each and every condition, enviornment, and potential hazzard the component will encounter during just its service life...let alone what may or may not be seen many years down the road. This is the basis of the old addage "not built like that anymore". A vehicle used to have a much longer expected service life. Had to endure greater abuse, require simple and less frequent maintance, and last longer. Living in today's "disposable" society that is less the case.
So what am I blathering on about?
Well, only you can decide if you are at peace with the capabilities of your YJ. There are many here who would point to potential "weak links" based on usually experiance but sometimes just opinion or word of mouth.
The fact of the matter is that you have built a capable Jeep. Using a blend of factory and aftermarket components and have retained a less "extreme" approach towards the end use. All good stuff in your favor. Does this mean your YJ is unbreakable and will last forever? No...of course that would be silly to say. But, with proper maintance, an adult perspective towards the obsticles you encounter, and the willingness to upgrade any future component failure you should be good to go.
I would also state that the more immediate result of being so pudgy in the Jeep area is more the lines of efficency and wear. More mass means more fuel needed to start and maintain a highway speed. Loss of aerodynamics requires the drivetrain to work harder to keep up with others zipping along. The "need" to downshift to climb even the slightest grades (believe me I understand this well) does require more use of wear items like the clutch (minior but still a fact) as well as potential for lost momentum requiring extra fuel to power back to speed.
My final thoughts for now are these.
On the days when you are not using it for camping or trail riding or away from civilization...Unload it! Find a way to stack and store all the really unnessicary and heavy extra stuff in the garage or where ever. Are you going somewhere that water and fuel will be unavailable? That is a LOT of weight to carry around for nothing. A small emergancy fuel can should be plenty unless your expecting the zombie hordes to attack and feel the need to bug out. But by leaving all that at home when not needed you have saved weight, removed the chance of theft, and have given the Jeep back a chance to rest.
Ever gone on a long hike with a horribly overloaded pack? When you got to the campsite did you spend the entire time walking around and doing everything with the pack still on? Doubt it. What a great feeling to drop pack and feel your body try and fly away...Ahhh.. Now do the same for the YJ when not "hiking! It may just go Ahhh too!:sombrero:

 

[Karma]

HI All,
I'm going to try to get some pics today if the weather holds. Thanks again for your comments. I'm starting to get a feel for your answers to my questions. Mostly, you all think the Dana 35 is the bad guy.

One thing. I have noticed that only one person has posted the weight of their ride. Am I correct to assume that, other than that one, no one has actually weighed their Jeep? Am I the only one crazy enough to face the big "Weight Truth"? I am definitely curious about the weight of your Jeeps.

I think it is slightly odd that you will comment on my design without having your own Jeep as a reference. Would you be surprised as I was?

Sparky

 

[getlost4x4]

just some quick thoughts since i have been down this road before in my old Jeep Commander.

When i bought it, it had tons of power out of the 4.7 V8. After i added 32" tires and a 3" lift it still did fine. i only lost about 1 mpg. then after that i started to make major changes by adding a winch bumper, winch, rear tire carrier, and a metal box in the rear to carrier all my equipment. my performance really went down hill. i started getting 16 mpg on the highway and it was extremely underpowered.

i decided to weigh it. 6500#:Wow1:

the jeep looked cool, but it was really heavy.

i decided to ditch the tool box and build a wooden sleeping platform and storage compartment. the old box weighed about 125 lbs. the new one weighed in at 10 lbs.:Wow1:

i could really tell the difference. i started only bring the equipment i would need. i cut down about another 200 lbs.

i also threw out the highlift jack, i never used it since i had a winch. and i don't like them for changing tires. i always use my stock scissor jack.

you have to figure out what you need. then carry only the essentials. sure all the equipment is a cool factor. but so you need it? and are there easier ways to get the stuff you need?

i'm trying to build my new jeep with a good plan this time. i'm only using light weight parts and tools. i'm trying to keep everything to a maximum of 5000 lbs fully loaded.

 

[wADVr]

I am very happy with the Alcan leaf packs. they look high quality and they perform high quality. They will sit higher than you asked for a time period dependant on how often and loaded down you go. But once they settle they will stay put and not keep going like other packs I have had. With this pack I have NO axle wrap as these are military wrapped and ride nice loaded or not. Articulation hasnt been a big concern for me but they do a good job as well as or better than any other leaf pack i have used.

If you order a 3" pack be prepared to sit at 4-5" for a bit.

OME makes great leaf packs as well, I would call them and see what they have to say before ordering, sometimes they have a solution based on the years of experiance that arent printed in the product line.

If youre serious about getting the suspension sorted out get front and rear weights and if you can even side to side even being conscious on your loading/modifying the bias can be suprising.

 

[goodtimes]

Well, what do you think? Will this Jeep be reliable and useful especially in off road situations given the weight? I have driven a local, rocky trail with the full load. The Jeep performed well but it is the long haul trails that are important. What is your experience? I am also concerned about highway use since this Jeep is never trailered. I appreciate your ideas and thoughts.

Thanks, Sparky

IMO, you are moving in the right direction with some of the things you listed in the first post. As a point of reference, I recently sold my [extremely heavy] TJ due to lack of space and GVWR . . .

Upgrading the brakes is a major move in the right direction. Glad to hear you already did that. I understand your aversion to rear disks, but it is something to keep in the back of your mind should you find your current set up to be less than 100% as you spend more time in the back country. Remember that just because they work fine under 'normal' circumstances, does not mean that they will be 100% severe back country conditions. It is unlikely that you would have problems given your current set up, just remember that the [rear disk] option is there, should you find that you need a bit more some time in the future.

Weighing the jeep in the planning stages for a 'custom' suspension is a good call. The suspension is where I had most of my problems. Proper spring rates and proper shock valving is a must, IMO, for vehicles that exceed the GVWR by significant amounts. Add in a short wheel base, and this becomes even more important. So again, this is a good move. I hope that when you say 'custom' suspension, you are not referring to simply buying a set of heavy rate springs and off the shelf shocks -- I've been there and done that . . . you will be better off with springs made for your specific application, and shocks valved for the same. Those two things will make a HUGE difference, and are well worth the money. Also, don't forget to beef up your suspension mounting points. Spring hangers are usually pretty good from the factory -- shock mounts are often lacking though. I've never broken a spring hanger, but I have broken a number of shock mounts (both OEM and aftermarket). If you're spending the $$$ on good shocks/springs, then it only makes sense to make sure the mounting points are up to snuff.

The rear axle would cause me a bit of concern. I've seen a number of d35s break shafts. The load you are carrying, and your statement that you want it to go anywhere, are what is concerning about it. Remember, the D35 is a c-clip axle -- so if you break a shaft, the tire (and axle shaft) will fall off. If you are absolutely opposed to an axle swap, I'd suggest driving with caution. Just be aware that those axles are prone to breaking, so take the appropriate precautions (there are tools out there that will enable you to limp home on a broken shaft, or you could carry a spare, etc). Ford Explorer 8.8" rear axles are virtually a bolt in swap for the YJ's, so if you find yourself considering an axle swap in the future, it would be a good one to consider.

But really, the most important thing is to get out there and do it. All the upgrades in the world mean absolutely nothing if you don't go anywhere . . .
:smiley_drive:

 

[Karma]

HI jeepdreamer and getlost4x4,
What we have been talking about in this thread is my worse case situation. But it is also the normal case for a long haul expedition style camping trip. For local club activities and normal driving, I unload. My next trip to the scales will be with an unloaded Jeep. I will definitely drop some weight. But most of the weight is now built into the fabric of the vehicle. It will never again be light and svelte.

I ask myself: "How much fluff is in this Jeep with the weights we have been discussing?". Certainly there is some considering my camping style but not very much. I have a friend that carries nothing but a small tent, a drop cloth, and some water. He does have an ARB freezer. So, he buys frozen burritos and heats them on his exhaust manifold!! Clever. But he can't sustain a long haul trip. I want more convenience and variety and range. He teases me endlessly. I counter by reminding him that will die and rot from a mega fart.

There is the local trip case and the long haul case. For the local case, many things can be stored which is what I do. All the camping gear is off as well as the gas and water cans. The ladder is gone. I don't know yet exactly how heavy but it will be well under 5000 lbs.

But the basic vehicle fabric is still heavy. I don't see any way to avoid that fact. True, I could reduce the number of tools in the tool chest. Or I could leave the high lift at home or even the Pull Pal. I've never used it. Maybe I could reduce the number of recovery implements. But, in truth all these items are there because I thought I needed them and I haven't changed my mind.

Some of this has to do with the way I prefer to wheel. I go out alone much of the time. This calls for self-sufficiency. I even have a Personal Emergency Beacon for the times when I may become disabled in the middle of nowhere and need rescue. Many things could be eliminated if I depended on others to provide the hardware. The winch, or high lift or Pull Pal are examples. A lot of people do this. I can't.

For those of you that think the high lift is only for changing tires and adding weight, you are wrong. At the Chile Challenge a few years ago I was high centered so badly that my winch just pulled the anchor vehicle towards me. The only way was to use the high lift to get rocks under the tires so I could drive out. Don't under rate the value of the high lift jack.

So, honestly, I don't see much weight saving in the basic fabric to be had unless I start to remove items I deem essential. That seems counter productive.

Maybe I just have the wrong vehicle. Since I love so many of the qualities of the Jeep YJ, that would be a very tough conclusion to come to. Doomsday, as I said above.

Sparky

 

[Karma]

HI goodtimes,
I fear you have not read this entire thread. Please do so since I think you may have some additional good comments. If you had you would see that I am considering a custom suspension form Alcan. That or OME heavy duty.

Also, had you read the thread, you would know that I have upgraded the axles on the D35. The axles are from Superior. I did this fairly early in the game. My axles are not C clip. In 1989 the D35 did not use C clips. But, no matter. They will still fall off if broken. The only way to avoid this is to not break axles or go to a full floating axle a la Land Rover. This would be a major upgrade especially since Warn no longer makes their full floating kit. 8.8's will not solve that problem. Disk brakes on the rear have no particular appeal to me especially since I have sintered metallic shoes.

Oh, and do remember, I said I want to go anywhere but I know I am limited by clearance. So I can't. It's all about trade-offs.

I guess I should repeat that both front and rear are ARB locked.

Sparky

 

[DT75FLH]

my jeep weighed around 4950 IIRC. that was no top. full gas, full body painted side armor...i can post a pic later as the file is on my other computer

I believe that some one posted on here (look at off road passport?) they are rebuilding a red exo xj...he has a great pic of the old super 35 kit axle shaft and a 33 spline super 8.8 axle shaft. tis quite impressive.

they said that randys ring and pinon bought out warns rights to the kit.

 

[Karma]

HI All,
Well it's not for lack of effort. I tried to post pictures both in this thread and in a album. Both actions gave the same error message. A security token was missing. I don't know what that means but the downloads were rejected. I have contacted the WEB Master.

I know some forums have rules concerning new members posting pics. One must be a member for some period of time before they let you post. Is Expedition Portal that way?

It's a PITA!!

Sparky

 

[Karma]

HI DT75FLH,
Under what conditions did you weigh your Jeep? Was it in a trail ready mode with all gear loaded as mine was. Could you just jump in, start it up and start on a trek? I'm just trying get a comparison. If not, then your Jeep might weigh more than mine when it is really trail ready.

Sparky

 

[Topgun514]

Karma,
You have spent so much on supplies for the Jeep but I wish you could listen a bit more about this axle dilemma. By the sounds of things, your Jeep is pretty bombproof, and I am pretty jealous of your extent of gear. You seem very willing to want to get out "there" but the D35 is your weak link as already stated. It does not matter that you upgraded it, just look at the tubes yourself- they are for soccer moms. If you are backing up and hit a rock you will rip the diff cover like paper. I am unfortunate enough to also have a d35 and refuse to put money into it when it breaks. I will do a 44, ford 9, or 8.25 in but a d35 is just too small.

For my wheeling and build, I am the exact opposite- Everything is done by light weight. My camping gear such as tent, bag, pads, lights, shovel first aid and grill are probably WELL under 100 lbs with a cooler full of ice being the heaviest. My main offroading sections are fire roads for the most part.

My Jeep is fairly completely stripped, no power anything, no AC, no extra ANYTHING. My guess is that- stock I have trimmed off about 50 lbs, which is a lot, try it one day. And that includes my everyday carry, basic tools and spare tire. But even with this I am expecting to blow my axle.

You will have so much stress on the mounts and bouncing that it WILL blow when your fully loaded going on some long trip. Again, you asked opinions and we are telling you. An axle swap for a good axle is not even that expensive, and when you sell yours you could come close to breaking even.

 

[Karma]

HI Topgun,
Thanks for your views. Have you weighed your Jeep with it ready to go on a trek? I mean really ready. What did the weight come out to be?

My Jeep started out stripped. No AC or power anything. It was about as plain as Jeep made. Not even door locks. And I have a soft top. Of course, I do have power steering and power brakes. I assume you do too.

With your approach, you can't do a long haul trek. Nothing wrong with that. But you should be careful when you compare our two different uses and needs. You can't do what I am outfitted to do. Remember, I'm building my Jeep. Do not confuse this with yours.

I hear you. Have you read here that I have been wheeling this Jeep for 10 years? With the D35? I'm not a rookie at this game. Believe me, I have read many folks bashing the D35. I must ask this: why have I not had any trouble? After all, it's fair question. 10 years is a lot of off roading and I don't baby it. But, I'm also not crazy either. I have belonged to a Jeep club for those 10 years and I have NEVER seen a D35 fail. I'm not BS'ing you. It is true. This confuses me.

Sparky

 

[Warhead]

really, you have "never" seen a D35 fail in 10 years of wheeling?
I have seen two break on pavement:Wow1:

I still do not know what the purpose of this thread is? ...but for the peace of mind an 8.8 from an explorer is not that much $$$