Torsion-Free Sub-Frame

dzzz

The frame does have one state of torque at any given moment. That torque produces a displacement that varies along the length of the frame, but is a direct function of the torque.


No doubt there, but are the dampers there for the sake of the structure and it's contents, or for the occupants?
I'll not argue for or against adding dampers, just ask what the goal(s) is/are and if they're worth that added complexity. Don't assume that the intended flex points are without internal damping, it is there as friction. Whether it is significant to the situation is another story.

The sum of the torques may be the state. But if your body was twisted in two opposite directions you would care about individual values. And you reaction when released by one torque would vary depending on the individual values.

Also, the current state affects the machines response to the next state. The more energy stored in the frame the broader the possible outcomes to what comes next. More pushback on the suspension stores energy in a system designed toward a desirable response. Isn't that was basic racy car stuff?

I'm specifically wasn't suggesting adding dampers, rather talking about damping (dampning, dampening?) inherent in a design.

We got into the pivot frame "business" here trying to not break the FG frame. That went well.......:Wow1:
I'm looking at alternatives between the extremes; four pivot points and a fixed mount. I'm postulating that there is an in-between solution that is simpler and offers other benefits. A four pivot frame may "not move" relative to the camper, but it sure moves relative to any other reference.

I would think that basic suspension principals would indicate a goal of the minimal frame twisting that can preserve the frame. There may be an off-road exception if suspension travel is insufficient, I don't know.

We now have the OKA boys with their stiff frame. So I am somewhat hopeful we all don't have to drive floppy trucks.

Anyone have video of big earthroamer moving over rough terrain? My guess is that they have a pivot forward and bushings on the back and that the truck shows more suspension movement than frame twist.
 

dzzz

But for slower driving, the flexible mounting may be better, since it improves traction (more articulation for better weight distribution) and reduces the stresses at the mounting points and in the suspension.

.........

I think that's true. But I would add that stress on the frame and mounting points isn't a problem unless it's a problem. My emphasis on damping is on a controlled response. Probably a less linear response thatn a regular 4 point. A goal of not a lot of movement until either a wheel will be unweighted, or the frame/camper is in danger.

This balance obviously depends on the truck. At a similiar wheel base, the U500 frame weighs as much as the entire FG. On the U500, camper damage is more likely than frame damage. I believe the original 3 point Mercedes designed for the unimog was used by unicat to protect their box, not the frame. That 3 point design was carried over to the FG, and......
 

JRhetts

Adventurer
Anyone have video of big earthroamer moving over rough terrain? My guess is that they have a pivot forward and bushings on the back and that the truck shows more suspension movement than frame twist.

Although I have driven a couple of EarthRoamers over 80,000 miles, quite a bit of it very rough terrain (e.e., raw lava fields in Eastern Oregon), I have no video. But I do know you have your hypothesized geometry wrong: the ER house is bolted directly to a couple of lateral extensions of the frame in the fwd two corners, and has a pivot in the back.
 

gait

Explorer
Although I have driven a couple of EarthRoamers over 80,000 miles, quite a bit of it very rough terrain (e.e., raw lava fields in Eastern Oregon), I have no video. But I do know you have your hypothesized geometry wrong: the ER house is bolted directly to a couple of lateral extensions of the frame in the fwd two corners, and has a pivot in the back.
that's something of a relief to me. My belief is that rigidly fixing house to chassis (with torque free mount) behind the rear axle will in some circumstances create more roll of house and potentially adversely effect handling.

I hope this isn't "teaching grandmother to suck eggs". I haven't been at this long but I suspect that describing house movement relative to chassis and not describing both relative to the road may be misleading. "Torque Free" is catchy but only considers house sub frame movement relative to chassis twist not the equally important chassis roll and the dynamics of the whole system.

Maybe just me but I find it helps to consider everything relative to the road. The most "fixed" reference object. I prefer a mythical fixed, flat, road with bumps where I need them to change the equilibrium. It also helps to consider the chassis twist due to both front axle and rear axle roll. If the axles both roll to the same degree in the same direction at static equilibrium chassis twist will be approximately zero and chassis roll will approximate to axle roll. If the axles roll in opposing directions then chassis twist (relative to the road) at some point between the axles will be zero but chassis twist at the chassis extremes approximates to the sum of axle rolls allowing for some probable adjustments for suspension spring rates and chassis stiffness. I'll leave you work out the +- signs for clockwise and anticlockwise and contemplate the absolute movement in mm for any point in the chassis.

One hypothesis would suggest that the best place along the length of the chassis for a fixed body mount is where minimum body roll has to occur to accommodate chassis twist. Assuming same front and rear suspension spring rates that point is half way between the axles. But before we get too carried away, don't forget that the chassis also bends. The temptation is then to strengthen the chassis or spread the load. And if we do that it may lead to a stiffer chassis and the need to soften the suspension springs. And ....... etc.

Damping is interesting. Its a dynamic thing and some of us may not make it past the static aspects of the design. I don't know how others do it but I tend to think in terms of relative mass, inertia and momentum. The effect of the distance between house centre of gravity and house roll centre as well as the moment of inertia of the house and the distance between house centre of gravity and chassis roll centre. There's also the elasticity of mountings (even fixed mounts) and absorption of energy. And hopefully there aren't too many resonances.

Back to where the body fixed mount is for a 3 point mount. If its at the extreme rear and the axles roll in opposite directions the house will roll. At some speeds the momentum of the house roll will in turn attempt to further roll the rear of the chassis, which must be accommodated in the suspension springs.

Now for the messy bit. Designed into the suspension is "roll steer". Without it we would have oversteer whereas understeer is usually perceived as more desirable. Its part of creating predictable stable cornering. The axle movement where its attached to the leaf springs is not vertical, its about an arc centred on the front spring mount. Depends on the suspension geometry but when the chassis rolls relative to the rear axle one rear wheel moves forward a bit and the other back a bit which introduces a small but important steering effect. There is a similar effect on the front suspension where the axle roll is reduced. Front suspension geometry has a similar roll steering effect plus the effect of the steering coupling itself - the steering box is likely fixed at a different centre to the front spring mounts so for a fixed steering wheel position the steering movement at the wheels changes as the axle moves up/down and/or the chassis rolls relative to the axle.

The limits for the FG suspension appear to be quite wide, otherwise we'd hear a few more war stories. However, get it all wrong and we may proceed down the road meandering (potentially uncontrollably) from side to side with a driver tendancy to attempt to correct the yawing by turning the steering wheel.

Now try to picture it while driving round a bend.

To take it to completion, which I haven't, there's a need to build a picture of all movements from road (the most fixed reference) through all the mechanical transitions to house and back at all speeds considering the strength of all components plus the impact on ride and handling. Not a trivial exercise. At its worst there may be a point where it all becomes uncontrollably unstable.

For now I'm content that having the fixed mounts of a 3 point mount behind the rear axle is fundamentally unsound. They belong somewhere between the axles, preferably to achieve acceptable house and total roll relative to the road in most circumstances. I should add that this is only one small aspect of the total "body mount solution".
 

FusoFG

Adventurer
"I hope this isn't "teaching grandmother to suck eggs"."

I don't know what "teaching grandmother to suck eggs" means, but I think the discussion has become less "how to mount a camper so it doesn't get destroyed by rough road travel and so it doesn't limit suspension articulation or break the truck frame" and has become more "how to design a truck to carry a given load safely".

Granted, I know it's bad to assume things, but I assume that Fuso has designed the FG to carry it's approved payload safely.

Of course, unlike pickup truck manufacturers, they can't know in advance how a user will attach that payload to the truck. So in their body builder manual they define the limitations on front and rear weight distribution and height of center of gravity. Things that would affect handling, safety, etc.

As to the discussion of movement realtive to the road, I think the camper will move relative to the road just like the truck frame moves relative to the road.

If it's attached to the truck rigidly at the front and the pivots at the rear, the camper will follow the road more like the front of the truck than the rear.

If its attached rigidly at the rear and the pivots at the front, then it will follow more like the rear of the truck than the front.

And if it's attached rigidly in the center, it will follow the road more like the average of the front and rear motion.

The weight of the camper is going to affect the roll at either end of the truck, but if the load is within Fuso's weight and center of gravity limitations, it shouldn't affect the handling anymore than a rigidly attached camper.


I think Rob Gray is correct with his idea that the difference between a 3 point and 4 point attachment is in the maximum twist between the camper and the truck frame, but the maximum frame twist in either case is the same.

He suggests that if the maximum frame twist is, say, 10 degrees then with a 4 point attachment there will be 5 degrees of twist between the front of the camper and the frame and 5 degrees between the rear of the camper and the frame.

With a 3 point attachment all 10 degrees of twist will show up at either the front or the rear, depending on which end has the pivot and which end is rigidly attached.

But the total twist is going to be the same for a given camper weight, front / rear weight distribution and height of center of gravity.
 

lehel1

Adventurer
frmae twist ??

hello all

great conversation.
in my humble opinion and from what i've seen of our own fg with a flattbed mounted supported by the whole length of the frame and nothing mounted at all, the fuso frame does not seem to be designed to be used with lots of twisting action.
at least with our 08 fg, with even nothing mounted on the frame at all, i beleive the frame would have problems of cracking or breaking if we continually pushing maximum articulation while driving a rough road.
you can almost feel the strain and hear the creaking of the frame at max articulation. with the flatbed mounted (its mounted supported by the whole length of the frame) everything feels good, some articulation is lost but the suspension does well even with a wheel off the ground at max articulation.
we've done some work on our suspension to increase the articulation and thats worked out well (although i'm still drolling over the atwater's new coil over system, wow)

in any case, no problems yet with our new camper mounted on our flatbed directly and articulation or twist yet. time will tell if the camper is taking undue stress because of this. we're also looking a multi-bushing setup to go between the flatbed and the camper if we do encounter undue stresses to the camper in the future. i am certain any mounting system to the frame not using most of frame rail surface will cause issues for the frame.

with our unimog frame all seems to be a different story, the frame seems to be designed with twisting motion in mind. it is quite a joy to watch that frame in action twisting every which way effortlessly. this certainly has help me to conclude the fg fuso frame just doesn't like twisting or was designed for it.

anyhow, hope you all have enjoyed the holidays

cheers lehel
 

lehel1

Adventurer
frmae twist ??

hello all

great conversation.
in my humble opinion and from what i've seen of our own fg with a flattbed mounted supported by the whole length of the frame and nothing mounted at all, the fuso frame does not seem to be designed to be used with lots of twisting action.
at least with our 08 fg, with even nothing mounted on the frame at all, i beleive the frame would have problems of cracking or breaking if we continually pushing maximum articulation while driving a rough road.
you can almost feel the strain and hear the creaking of the frame at max articulation. with the flatbed mounted (its mounted supported by the whole length of the frame) everything feels good, some articulation is lost but the suspension does well even with a wheel off the ground at max articulation.
we've done some work on our suspension to increase the articulation and thats worked out well (although i'm still drolling over the atwater's new coil over system, wow)

in any case, no problems yet with our new camper mounted on our flatbed directly and articulation or twist yet. time will tell if the camper is taking undue stress because of this. we're also looking a multi-bushing setup to go between the flatbed and the camper if we do encounter undue stresses to the camper in the future. i am certain any mounting system to the frame not using most of frame rail surface will cause issues for the frame.

with our unimog frame all seems to be a different story, the frame seems to be designed with twisting motion in mind. it is quite a joy to watch that frame in action twisting every which way effortlessly. this certainly has help me to conclude the fg fuso frame just doesn't like twisting or was designed for it.

anyhow, hope you all have enjoyed the holidays

cheers lehel
 

alan

Explorer
Hi Lehel,
I agree with you there, allowing the chassis to flex and twist under the camper or tray body is a disaster waiting to happen, i feel mitsubishi sell the basic cab chassis with a c section chassis as it is cheap and easy to produce in varying lengths etc, it is basically only holding the drive components in position, and is relying on the tray or mounting structure to add strenth and rigidity to the vehicle, the suspension is for articulation not the chassis flex, the OKA is a perfect example, rigid chassis with long leaf springs for a great ride and articulation, just my opinion..
 

ozzyfishaman

Adventurer
Hi Lehel,
I agree with you there, allowing the chassis to flex and twist under the camper or tray body is a disaster waiting to happen, i feel Mitsubishi sell the basic cab chassis with a c section chassis as it is cheap and easy to produce in varying lengths etc, it is basically only holding the drive components in position, and is relying on the tray or mounting structure to add strength and rigidity to the vehicle, the suspension is for articulation not the chassis flex, the OKA is a perfect example, rigid chassis with long leaf springs for a great ride and articulation, just my opinion..

Totally Agree Alan,I think you are asking for trouble allowing the chassis to twist to much,ATW have the best setup I have seen,and still allows the body to move under extreme circumstances. M2CW
 

KEENO

Adventurer
ATW have the best setup I have seen,and still allows the body to move under extreme circumstances.

There lies the issue... It's TOP SECRET! Especially if you're located in the States.:sombrero: You're just teasing us OZZY...

KEENO:)
 
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tamangel

Adventurer
I remember Rob Gray and the Wothahellizat 1 build discussed this.. Might be interesting to check there..although his was a 6X6..maybe a few points valuable..


Diary #11 19 May 99
I start building the body mounts. This entry covers the front mounts.

Diary #10 24 Apr 99
Analysis of the chassis twist causes a slight design change.

Diary #9 14 Apr 99
We try the truck out on some rough(ish) stuff to measure the chassis twist.

http://www.robgray.com/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/diaries/index.php


Mike
 

gait

Explorer
one of the differences between 3 and 4 point mounts is that the 4 point will have to accommodate or constrain bending of the chassis.

When considering body roll, and its impact on the chassis, getting the centre of gravity within limits is a first approximation. The moment of inertia (watch the ice skater who spins slower when arms are spread) is part of the next bit when considering the dynamics.

I also doubt that any chassis manufacturer expects their chassis to exhibit the amount of twist seen in a cab/chassis when in normally loaded service. Simply adding weight to a basic cab/chassis will reduce chassis twist and corespondingly increase suspension movement in most circumstances.
 

KEENO

Adventurer
Thanks for the link Tamangel....

That site should keep me busy for hours. A well documented build.

KEENO:)
 

adam88

Explorer
I have a question for anyone who is an expert on 3 point pivot frames... and I hope I can ask it properly so that it makes sense.

My question is... how close can the flatbed frame be to the truck frame? I am trying to make a flatbed that sits as low to the ground as possible (it will have wheel well cutouts). Can I put the flatbed very close to the frame (like 1 inch apart), and still have a rear pivot point work properly? I guess this is a physics question. I can figure out in my head how the pivot rotates when the frame flexes. I imagine the flatbed on one side hitting the frame but I don't know if that's true.

Thanks a lot.
 

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