Stroverlander
Adventurer
The Sunrader is looking great, keep it up!
Toyota Sunrader rebuild
- Thread starter climberchick
- Start date
tanglefoot
ExPoseur
Great read!
We've had a 1988 Toyota camper in the family since new (22' Odyssey 2wd). I grew up building forts in the back with my sister. Now I tag along with my parents in it a few times/year and take turns with the driving. It's completely original, even cushions/carpet.
The only thing that's stopped it so far was the distributor rotor. While climbing long mountain passes in 2nd gear, the dist rotor would start to back off the shaft, and with the extra resistance encountering the cap, it would melt and the engine would stumble and quit. The dist rotor has since been epoxied on and has had no further issues. There's also been a new, spare rotor/cap in the side compartment since then.
If you do feel like tearing into the engine a little bit, you might consider taking off the timing cover (don't forget the hidden bolt coming down from the head, usually submerged in an oil puddle) and putting on a new chainset, tensioner, and maybe metal chain guides, especially if you hear any chain rattle/slap as it's running. That's a good time to replace the front main seal as well, and maybe the oil pump and water pump if you feel like it. On my '85, the chain had almost worn through a coolant passage. That said, the engine in the '88 has never been dismantled at all and is still doing just fine, outwardly
I was wondering about the reasoning behind the LC axle swap. You already have a nice, full-floater under there. Another option on the rolling stock might be to find two more of the 14" dually wheels and put them up front with the big-6-lug adapters, similar to how the campers come from the factory. That way you'd still only need one spare. I have seen a few 4wd Odysseys with singles out back but they still used wider wheels and tires than the front and needed to carry two spares. 15" tires don't have a lot of load capacity until you get up to bigger sizes. If you go with singles in the back, there's the debate whether or not to maintain the wide track in back or use the same track as the front. The wider track in back definitely helps with stability and sure-footedness but the narrower track lets the back tires stay in the grooves of the front tires, for better going in mud and sand.
While the smaller tire/worse fuel economy correlation is usually true with most vehicles, it tends to invert when you get into power:weight ratios like these. Since you have the 5-speed trans, you have plenty of overdrive to comfortably and efficiently spin the 14s. With the small engine displacement and fairly heavy weight and high wind load, fuel economy can improve a bit by letting the engine spin a little faster.
The 22R-E sometimes has some interesting quirks with engine temperature. Some stay cool as a cucumber no matter what, some run a little hot and some exhibit "heater spike": a jump in coolant temperature when the climate control slider is moved to the hot side, theoretically as cooler water from the heater core hits the thermostat and causes it to close. The '85 runs cool but shows "heater spike". The '88 runs hotter and doesn't show "heater spike". You can experiment with different thermostats and sometimes change the hot flashes. If you run into heat trouble that doesn't seem to remedy, just remove the thermostat altogether and close the housing back up until you find a freer-flowing thermostat.
One thing you might consider, depending on the terrain you plan to cover, is a transfer-case low-range gearset change. These cases have a moderately shallow 2.28:1 low-range ratio and when combined with some weight and high center-of-gravity, it doesn't seem nearly low enough. I put a 4:1 gearset (from Advanced Adapters) in the '85 and love it. It really improves the low-speed control and torque multiplication...practically omits the need to slip the clutch. A 4.7:1 gearset is also usually available from Marlin Crawler. Now I explore most trails in 2nd or 3rd gear with the T-case in 4L, but I know that 1st-gear's there for the tough spots.
On the generator issue, my parents and grandparents ordered the Odyssey with the generator-delete and haven't looked back. We're really adverse to generators. If there's one running in the vicinity, we joke about going and plugging the exhaust and when they finally turn it off, we breathe a huge sigh of relief and sometimes applaud. They just ruin the "zen" so effectively with the fumes and the noise, even the cleaner, quieter ones. And we like having that big side compartment for storage. On the '85, I use a small solar panel and charge controller and really like it. The camper's not electrically connected to the truck at all--I like having all the camper electricity come from the sun. The solar panels on Ebay, directly from China are good values. The '88 just uses the original charging connection to the engine with the isolator.
Sounds like a great adventure. Good luck, and enjoy!
We've had a 1988 Toyota camper in the family since new (22' Odyssey 2wd). I grew up building forts in the back with my sister. Now I tag along with my parents in it a few times/year and take turns with the driving. It's completely original, even cushions/carpet.
The only thing that's stopped it so far was the distributor rotor. While climbing long mountain passes in 2nd gear, the dist rotor would start to back off the shaft, and with the extra resistance encountering the cap, it would melt and the engine would stumble and quit. The dist rotor has since been epoxied on and has had no further issues. There's also been a new, spare rotor/cap in the side compartment since then.
If you do feel like tearing into the engine a little bit, you might consider taking off the timing cover (don't forget the hidden bolt coming down from the head, usually submerged in an oil puddle) and putting on a new chainset, tensioner, and maybe metal chain guides, especially if you hear any chain rattle/slap as it's running. That's a good time to replace the front main seal as well, and maybe the oil pump and water pump if you feel like it. On my '85, the chain had almost worn through a coolant passage. That said, the engine in the '88 has never been dismantled at all and is still doing just fine, outwardly
I was wondering about the reasoning behind the LC axle swap. You already have a nice, full-floater under there. Another option on the rolling stock might be to find two more of the 14" dually wheels and put them up front with the big-6-lug adapters, similar to how the campers come from the factory. That way you'd still only need one spare. I have seen a few 4wd Odysseys with singles out back but they still used wider wheels and tires than the front and needed to carry two spares. 15" tires don't have a lot of load capacity until you get up to bigger sizes. If you go with singles in the back, there's the debate whether or not to maintain the wide track in back or use the same track as the front. The wider track in back definitely helps with stability and sure-footedness but the narrower track lets the back tires stay in the grooves of the front tires, for better going in mud and sand.
While the smaller tire/worse fuel economy correlation is usually true with most vehicles, it tends to invert when you get into power:weight ratios like these. Since you have the 5-speed trans, you have plenty of overdrive to comfortably and efficiently spin the 14s. With the small engine displacement and fairly heavy weight and high wind load, fuel economy can improve a bit by letting the engine spin a little faster.
The 22R-E sometimes has some interesting quirks with engine temperature. Some stay cool as a cucumber no matter what, some run a little hot and some exhibit "heater spike": a jump in coolant temperature when the climate control slider is moved to the hot side, theoretically as cooler water from the heater core hits the thermostat and causes it to close. The '85 runs cool but shows "heater spike". The '88 runs hotter and doesn't show "heater spike". You can experiment with different thermostats and sometimes change the hot flashes. If you run into heat trouble that doesn't seem to remedy, just remove the thermostat altogether and close the housing back up until you find a freer-flowing thermostat.
One thing you might consider, depending on the terrain you plan to cover, is a transfer-case low-range gearset change. These cases have a moderately shallow 2.28:1 low-range ratio and when combined with some weight and high center-of-gravity, it doesn't seem nearly low enough. I put a 4:1 gearset (from Advanced Adapters) in the '85 and love it. It really improves the low-speed control and torque multiplication...practically omits the need to slip the clutch. A 4.7:1 gearset is also usually available from Marlin Crawler. Now I explore most trails in 2nd or 3rd gear with the T-case in 4L, but I know that 1st-gear's there for the tough spots.
On the generator issue, my parents and grandparents ordered the Odyssey with the generator-delete and haven't looked back. We're really adverse to generators. If there's one running in the vicinity, we joke about going and plugging the exhaust and when they finally turn it off, we breathe a huge sigh of relief and sometimes applaud. They just ruin the "zen" so effectively with the fumes and the noise, even the cleaner, quieter ones. And we like having that big side compartment for storage. On the '85, I use a small solar panel and charge controller and really like it. The camper's not electrically connected to the truck at all--I like having all the camper electricity come from the sun. The solar panels on Ebay, directly from China are good values. The '88 just uses the original charging connection to the engine with the isolator.
Sounds like a great adventure. Good luck, and enjoy!
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climberchick
Observer
Thanks for all the good pointers and food for thought, tanglefoot! We are definitely learning as we go - though we've had travel trailers before, this will be our first RV. I know we decided on a generator mostly for backup... we'd like to avoid using it as much as possible. But to rig up a solar panel is not very realistic for South America, since just about anything removable on the outside of your rig will get removed by opportunistic thieves. We thought about it and even consulted with a solar company, but they informed us we'd have to have pretty large panels, which would take up more roof space than we're willing to part with and would be too easily stolen.
I will forward your mechanical questions to my partner, who is making all such decisions, and I'll relay what he says.
I been scratching my head over how to keep the dually full floating rear axle housing and just convert it to a srw myself. The LC axle is off centered and will require grinding and welding new mounts for the leaf springs.
I ran intoTHIS which enables you to retain the dually axle and just swap the hubs from an fj80 rear end if its any help to make your project easier. I want to try this myself if i can source the hubs.
If you plan to sell, I'm interested in your 14" rims up front once you convert to 15" rims. I source a couple of 14" rims and they are not clearing my solid front axle break caliper found on 79-85 pickup/4runner. Your rim must have a special contour for it to clear the calipers. this would help me keep my dually setup in the rear for the time being.
I ran intoTHIS which enables you to retain the dually axle and just swap the hubs from an fj80 rear end if its any help to make your project easier. I want to try this myself if i can source the hubs.
If you plan to sell, I'm interested in your 14" rims up front once you convert to 15" rims. I source a couple of 14" rims and they are not clearing my solid front axle break caliper found on 79-85 pickup/4runner. Your rim must have a special contour for it to clear the calipers. this would help me keep my dually setup in the rear for the time being.
4x4kayaker
Observer
I'm about to laminate some beams for my sagging roof, just built a jig. Here is a tip for laying up ceiling fibreglass so it does not sag, spray on some 3m adhesive like 77 or 90 first before laying up your cloth. I'm thinking of having my beams exposed with a carbon fibre layup for looks. Are you doing some kind of rear locking storage box? That's a project I want to tackle too.
climberchick
Observer
tanglefoot and ejwan -
Okay... Here's what the man says about the mechanical stuff:
I found out that the timing chain was already done and upgraded to a double chain setup, so we are all good there. We are seeing a temperature spike but it behaves more like a stuck thermostat, and I have a new one waiting to go in. The big item is that axle. We looked at the conversion using high range but it really is expensive considering you have to augment the kit with calipers and parts. Our rear needs all new springs, shocks and swaybar bushings, so we have to essentially drop it anyway. The LC axle complete with brakes can be found for 500 to 700 bucks. I am looking for a 92 to 96 vintage. It is already a full float and can be found with the factory e-locker. While there is some fabrication involved, we can sell the dually setup to offset that cost. At the end of the day we will have the right bolt pattern and a locker to boot. As far as the width, it comes out to the same width as the dually axle. The rear diff is offset, but only slightly. I haven't gotten it under there to see what has to be adjusted, so we will see how this all works out. We will try spacers on the front to get the wheels to track a little better. Finally, regarding the generator, that is a must have in tropical climates where cloudy conditions and need for AC is constant. Plus, as mentioned, solar panels aren't a good solution for our planned trip for theft reasons as well. IMHO. All parts will be sold when the conversion is complete, so yes, ejwan, we will likely be looking for a home for those 14" rims. Stay tuned!
Okay... Here's what the man says about the mechanical stuff:
I found out that the timing chain was already done and upgraded to a double chain setup, so we are all good there. We are seeing a temperature spike but it behaves more like a stuck thermostat, and I have a new one waiting to go in. The big item is that axle. We looked at the conversion using high range but it really is expensive considering you have to augment the kit with calipers and parts. Our rear needs all new springs, shocks and swaybar bushings, so we have to essentially drop it anyway. The LC axle complete with brakes can be found for 500 to 700 bucks. I am looking for a 92 to 96 vintage. It is already a full float and can be found with the factory e-locker. While there is some fabrication involved, we can sell the dually setup to offset that cost. At the end of the day we will have the right bolt pattern and a locker to boot. As far as the width, it comes out to the same width as the dually axle. The rear diff is offset, but only slightly. I haven't gotten it under there to see what has to be adjusted, so we will see how this all works out.
We will try spacers on the front to get the wheels to track a little better. Finally, regarding the generator, that is a must have in tropical climates where cloudy conditions and need for AC is constant. Plus, as mentioned, solar panels aren't a good solution for our planned trip for theft reasons as well. IMHO. All parts will be sold when the conversion is complete, so yes, ejwan, we will likely be looking for a home for those 14" rims. Stay tuned!climberchick
Observer
Interesting! We tried holding up the cloth with foam supports and shaving them off afterward, but it was too tricky for the whole beam. I think ours came out well overall, though. Good luck fixing that sag! And yes, we'll be adding locking storage boxes on the back to replace the giant and cumbersome one that was there before. We haven't done much research on this yet, since we've been bogged down with fiberglass stuff. Any ideas?
tanglefoot
ExPoseur
Ah, okay. Thanks for forwarding.
It looks like the Mitsubishi Fusos that go to singles use a fairly wide high-offset wheel (same wheel all around) and run it with the mounting face towards the inside on the rear and the mounting face towards the outside on the front. They use industrial-style tires with very high load capacity but the Fuso platform is quite a bit heavier than the Toyota 1-ton platform.
I'm pretty sure what the 4wd Toyota RVs with singles I saw did is use a wider wheel with very little backspacing on the back, with the mounting face toward the inside and a wider tire for load carrying capacity (probably a pretty unconventional size) and a narrower wheel up front with little offset and a more conventional tire size. They did carry two spares--one for each axle.
I'm interested to see your tire and wheel selection. You might consider going to 16" wheels instead of 15" in order to get better load capacity of the tires. With something like a LT235/75R15, the max load is usually right around 2000 lbs each but if you go with a LT225/75R16 load range E, you can get close to 2700 lbs/tire of capacity. The 14" duals provide about 6000 lbs or more of load capacity for the rear axle. Granted, that's a bit of overkill for the vehicle weight but you don't want to go too far shy of that either. I believe singles have a harder time dissipating heat than duals, given the same amount of load. Select the tires carefully to leave enough reserve load capacity and use plenty of air pressure to keep them running cool.
I know one reason for the singles was to better avoid potholes and road damage, but I wanted to offer a counter-argument to consider. I think potholed roads are a definite strength of a dually axle. The duals have such a big reach and footprint on the road that they'll often span right across the holes and float the inner or outer wheels right over them instead of falling in. I know on several occasions driving the Oddysey, I've braced myself for the imact of the rear wheels on a killer pothole I wasn't able to avoid, only for it to be a complete non-issue. A heavily-loaded single wheel, on the other hand, makes a big impact when it encounters a pothole. I know in Mexico and central-America (and India, thanks to Ice Road Truckers), just about every medium-duty-and-above vehicle is on duals and they seem to be well suited for the disintegrated stretches of road, aside from the occasional rock between the duals. You can usually avoid the holes with the fronts, and then the duals out back usually just roll right over the surrounding surface.
It looks like the Mitsubishi Fusos that go to singles use a fairly wide high-offset wheel (same wheel all around) and run it with the mounting face towards the inside on the rear and the mounting face towards the outside on the front. They use industrial-style tires with very high load capacity but the Fuso platform is quite a bit heavier than the Toyota 1-ton platform.
I'm pretty sure what the 4wd Toyota RVs with singles I saw did is use a wider wheel with very little backspacing on the back, with the mounting face toward the inside and a wider tire for load carrying capacity (probably a pretty unconventional size) and a narrower wheel up front with little offset and a more conventional tire size. They did carry two spares--one for each axle.
I'm interested to see your tire and wheel selection. You might consider going to 16" wheels instead of 15" in order to get better load capacity of the tires. With something like a LT235/75R15, the max load is usually right around 2000 lbs each but if you go with a LT225/75R16 load range E, you can get close to 2700 lbs/tire of capacity. The 14" duals provide about 6000 lbs or more of load capacity for the rear axle. Granted, that's a bit of overkill for the vehicle weight but you don't want to go too far shy of that either. I believe singles have a harder time dissipating heat than duals, given the same amount of load. Select the tires carefully to leave enough reserve load capacity and use plenty of air pressure to keep them running cool.
I know one reason for the singles was to better avoid potholes and road damage, but I wanted to offer a counter-argument to consider. I think potholed roads are a definite strength of a dually axle. The duals have such a big reach and footprint on the road that they'll often span right across the holes and float the inner or outer wheels right over them instead of falling in. I know on several occasions driving the Oddysey, I've braced myself for the imact of the rear wheels on a killer pothole I wasn't able to avoid, only for it to be a complete non-issue. A heavily-loaded single wheel, on the other hand, makes a big impact when it encounters a pothole. I know in Mexico and central-America (and India, thanks to Ice Road Truckers), just about every medium-duty-and-above vehicle is on duals and they seem to be well suited for the disintegrated stretches of road, aside from the occasional rock between the duals. You can usually avoid the holes with the fronts, and then the duals out back usually just roll right over the surrounding surface.
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magentawave
Adventurer
climberchick - I'm rebuilding my Sunrader too and just wrote a little about it in POST #8 on this page here. I actually built a blog months ago but haven't taken the time to add any content yet cuz I've been so frikkin busy with this project! I've been taking tons of photos so maybe I'll add some content this week. I kinda wish mine was a 4WD like yours but someone with a 4x4 Sunrader told me that I will be amazed at the places I can go in it if I add lockers to the rear axle.
My plan is to surf my way through Mexico, Central America and South America too and hopefully later this year.
Hmmm, that sliding door for separating the front cab from the rear is a good idea. What was your thinking behind doing that as opposed to just using a black-out curtain?
My plan is to surf my way through Mexico, Central America and South America too and hopefully later this year.
Hmmm, that sliding door for separating the front cab from the rear is a good idea. What was your thinking behind doing that as opposed to just using a black-out curtain?
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climberchick
Observer
Right on! You can convert it to 4x4, but your friend is probably right. Clearance is the main issue a lot of the time. I've had 2WD crossover vehicles before, and I took them pretty much everywhere because they had great clearance. The 4WD is nice in sand, mud, snow, etc.
We wanted the sliding/locking divider for security reasons. This will allow us to separate the cab from the camper area. Since the cab will be much easier to break into, they still won't be able to get into the camper area without a fight. This will be especially handy for shipping the vehicle, or any time we need to park the RV somewhere for a day while we go hiking or climbing or whatever. It's just one of several security improvements we're making. Others will be electronic deadbolts on all the doors, window security for the camper area, and a hidden lock box for our important items.
Maybe we'll see you on the road!
climberchick
Observer
Thanks for the thoughtful and thorough response, tanglefoot! We are reconsidering the axle swap since they can't seem to find us a replacement LR axle. Will keep you posted about what we decide!
magentawave
Adventurer
That was me that sent you the PM about asking a couple questions about the sliding door. I think I'm going to do that too.
Yeah, that would be funny to see another Sunrader way down there! There was a couple that took off a couple years ago in what looked to be a totally unmodified 2wd Sunrader. I think I saw them on the DriveTheAmericas website.
Small world cuz I printed out the same photos of your Sunrader that you have here http://rameyontheroad.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/good-things-come-in-threes/ way BEFORE you bought it and taped them to my bathroom wall last year as inspiration for my project. They aren't on the wall now because I moved to where my Sunrader is parked so I don't have to do a one hour round trip drive every day to work on it. Instead, I'm living CHEAP in an office above a friends cabinet shop just so I can roll out of bed and be working on it a minute later...and I have his 2500 square foot cabinet shop with all the fancy tools at my disposal too. Not exactly chick-magnet living for the moment but life south of the border beckons.
3 questions please... Where did you buy the electronic deadbolts that fit the front cab doors? Are they the same kind of dead bolt you used in the Sunraders side door? What kind of "window security" are you using in the camper?
Thanks
Yeah, that would be funny to see another Sunrader way down there! There was a couple that took off a couple years ago in what looked to be a totally unmodified 2wd Sunrader. I think I saw them on the DriveTheAmericas website.
Small world cuz I printed out the same photos of your Sunrader that you have here http://rameyontheroad.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/good-things-come-in-threes/ way BEFORE you bought it and taped them to my bathroom wall last year as inspiration for my project. They aren't on the wall now because I moved to where my Sunrader is parked so I don't have to do a one hour round trip drive every day to work on it. Instead, I'm living CHEAP in an office above a friends cabinet shop just so I can roll out of bed and be working on it a minute later...and I have his 2500 square foot cabinet shop with all the fancy tools at my disposal too. Not exactly chick-magnet living for the moment but life south of the border beckons.
3 questions please... Where did you buy the electronic deadbolts that fit the front cab doors? Are they the same kind of dead bolt you used in the Sunraders side door? What kind of "window security" are you using in the camper?
Thanks
Right on! You can convert it to 4x4, but your friend is probably right. Clearance is the main issue a lot of the time. I've had 2WD crossover vehicles before, and I took them pretty much everywhere because they had great clearance. The 4WD is nice in sand, mud, snow, etc.
We wanted the sliding/locking divider for security reasons. This will allow us to separate the cab from the camper area. Since the cab will be much easier to break into, they still won't be able to get into the camper area without a fight. This will be especially handy for shipping the vehicle, or any time we need to park the RV somewhere for a day while we go hiking or climbing or whatever. It's just one of several security improvements we're making. Others will be electronic deadbolts on all the doors, window security for the camper area, and a hidden lock box for our important items.
Maybe we'll see you on the road!
climberchick
Observer
Right on! Funny that our Rader has been floating around. Folks who know them well have followed each of the remaining 4x4s for years, through multiple owners. Lots of people have contacted us to say "I know your Sunrader!" Hopefully she'll be even more notorious when we're done with her.
We haven't done the locks or windows yet, but Ben found some locks online that should work, and we have several options for the windows (security coating or bars). We are now working on the refrigerator. Its housing warped, causing the door to not close properly.
4x4kayaker
Observer
These are great rear storage boxes, for gear, generator, and fuel BUT SPENDY. I had the deluxe on a previous rig and loved it, had my Honda generator in it. A galley box and fuel canister on the back of the sunrader would look grand! save your pennies.
http://www.aluminess.com/accessories/boxes/
http://www.aluminess.com/accessories/boxes/