Two winching questions...

[KG4NEL]

Hey all, two unrelated winching noob questions:

When doing a double pull out to a snatch block and back, is there any reason why you can't use the winch extension line between the snatch block and the tree, vs. just making one longer winch line from the drum back to the bumper? Seems like it'd be a more cost-effective way, instead of doubling up your line length only to have it halved. I know the block increases the effective mechanical advantage, but I'm not sure if that means everything else "upstream" has to be rated higher, too.

Also, those "abrasion guards" you see on the business end of syn line - are they necessary? Not sure how critical it'd be if I ran a line without one. It doesn't seem like they'd be doing much to keep the line from getting abraided, and it seems harder to respool the drum with it on. And I've read where they can actively get in the way sometimes...

Thanks!

 

[eggman918]

With a double line pull the load is being split between the two lines so as long as your extension line is up to the load yes BUT in most cases that would require a larger diameter line.
Read this it is invaluable for winching opps http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/Fm20-22(62).pdf

 

[anickode]

When anchoring a block, your anchor rigging should be rated for the Max pulling power of your winch multiplied by the number of parts on your line.

So a 12,000 lb winch with a 2 part line (single snatch block) should have a 24,000 lb anchor. A 4 part line (double block on the anchor and a single block on the vehicle) would need a 48,000 lb anchor.

Also, typically a snatch block is considered a 5% inefficiency, so a 12,000 lb winch running a single snatch block with a 2 part line is in theory good for 23,400 lbs.

 

[LocoCoyote]

And let's not forget that a winch is most effective the closer you get to a bare drum...it pays ( see what I did there! ) to use as much line as possible.

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

The important thing when using a synthetic line is to keep the trajectory as straight out of the fairlead as possible. With your jeep you won't have to worry about not enough line strength. Be sure the snatch block is free of sharp edges, burrs, or metal splinters. I've used and worn out 6 or 7 winches of all ratings and many replacement lines in my day. The rule of thumb is to have 1.5 times the winch rating as the weight of your rig. The woe with larger rated winches on a smaller rig is the 'deadman' problem. My Dodge 2500 has a 15K pound Warn Winch as the truck and camper weigh 10K pounds. Every time I use it for a hefty pull, especially when it's empty, I must deadman the truck by connecting it to another anchor point. If i don't, the winch just drags the trucks along with all four wheels locked up.
I like overkill on the line strength. I use a 4 inch, 30K pound strap with big D-rings, not hooks to keep everything together for big pulls. Also, use the most heavy duty snatch block. Mine has a 1" pin with a very high rating.
I must say I'm not fond of synth line as too many times I've seen them get frayed or tangled up with my many jeeping friends. Yes it is lightweight, but for arduous and frequent pulls I'll stay with my 7/16" wire rope on the 15K. Other recovery equipment I take along in the truck camper are:
several sizes of D-rings.
a very large hook with safety catch. When the person you are recovering has no anchor point, this will fit around axles, springs, frames, etc.
cat choker It's amazing how useful this Woodland tool is for off-roading.
a couple different sizes of nylon strap with loops on the end: 20K pound and 30K pound.
a couple 1K pound nylon ratchet straps.
a 10K pound ratchet strap
a 4K pound scissor jack
an 12 ton hydralic jack
a 2 ton come along
a 60" farm jack (especially for lifted vehicles)
4 foot tubular prybar
8" C clamp
a 30' coil of used line with safety hooks cable clamped on both ends.
On Board Welder with accessories
On only one recovery have I ever used every one of the items above. It was at the Hammers on Outer Limits when my front spring hanger pulled off the frame on my CJ-8 going up a waterfall. At least we had plenty of room to work on welding the part back on with the winch line positioning the axle, along with a band of clamps, jacks, and come-a-longs all at a 60 degree angle. O.K., maybe I take too much recovery junk, but when you need just a little more movement of the axle housing to affect a weld, brute force ain't going to do it.
jefe

 

[anickode]

And let's not forget that a winch is most effective the closer you get to a bare drum...it pays ( see what I did there! ) to use as much line as possible.

Yep, big time. Some winches pulling power is nearly halved on the first couple wraps, so a snatch block not only doubles the capacity, but doubles the amount of line you have out, putting it into a torquier layer on the drum.

It's really crazy to see the amount of pulling power you can get from using multi-part blocks. One of the coolest thing I've done was a Polaris ranger clutch dragging (not winching) an f350 in park with the e-brake set using a 12 part line. Done as part of a rigging demonstration. Granted, it took nearly 500 feet of line to drag the truck 30 feet, but still pretty impressive.

 

[LR Max]

1. Yeah its probably fine. That said, you should size your winch so you don't have to do a double line pull. Something I want you to consider with a double line pull. Assuming you've got a cheap winch, under full load, its good for 4~6 ft/minute at full load. That is SLOW. Measure out 6ft in your living room and then spend 6 minutes walking it. If you knock that in half, you'll toast out your solenoid before you could complete a full pull (assuming you have standard solenoids) since you'll be running the winch forever.

2. The abrasion guard. It isn't necessary, but I've used mine. Cheap insurance if you've got a long pull and have to attach over the crest of a hill. Also with a single line pull, the guard won't move but with a double line, line is going everywhere.

 

[chasespeed]

Couple things....

Even with wire rope, it is better to keep the line as straight out of the winch as possible. No, it's not a requirement that I'm aware of. Yes, it has a roller fairlead. But, with enough load, and those small rollers, you can damage the wire.

I'd love the weight savings of synthetic, but, I'm using mine to do some work while clearing my land. So, wire rope it is.. Too easy to damage the synthetic while dragging a log etc.

And, if you can rig, safely, there is so much that can be done with a winch.

Chase

 

[KG4NEL]

The rule of thumb is to have 1.5 times the winch rating as the weight of your rig. The woe with larger rated winches on a smaller rig is the 'deadman' problem. My Dodge 2500 has a 15K pound Warn Winch as the truck and camper weigh 10K pounds. Every time I use it for a hefty pull, especially when it's empty,

Yeah, my rig is maybe 5K loaded with gear and two people in it.

And let's not forget that a winch is most effective the closer you get to a bare drum...it pays ( see what I did there! ) to use as much line as possible.

My winch has 80' of 3/8" syn on it, and I'm lucky enough to live in the land of plentiful anchoring points, but I'm wary of that hidden mud pit that's 20' out of range from a tree...sounds like a 100' extension is the way to go, and run it through the moving side of the block.

 

[LocoCoyote]

Yeah, my rig is maybe 5K loaded with gear and two people in it.



My winch has 80' of 3/8" syn on it, and I'm lucky enough to live in the land of plentiful anchoring points, but I'm wary of that hidden mud pit that's 20' out of range from a tree...sounds like a 100' extension is the way to go, and run it through the moving side of the block.

You have to remember to factor in the additional resistance you get from terrain (slope, etc), how deeply mired you are, etc....its not just the vehicle weight you are pulling...you have to overcome the situation as well.

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

Chase,
I"m in a similar boat. Most of my winching now is related to firewood gathering (aka: scavenging). Some of those oak logs weigh several thousand pounds. If you have enough line to keep you out of the timber trajectory, a deadman, and keep the winch line attached up high you have enough leverage to safely pull down a large (dead) tree, with some saw prepping of course.
The best winch ever for Woodlands work is the Warn 8274. I've had a couple of these. Its secret is the fastest line speed in the west and 150 feet of line on the drum. It did have a downside as it is very tall and blocked some air flow to the radiator.
jefe