Sparse Gray Hackle
Geezer
Don’t you have ptarmigan in the higher country? I’ve flown from Kodiak to Larson Bay, and it looked possible.
Upland Hunting - General
- Thread starter Highlander
- Start date
Don’t you have ptarmigan in the higher country? I’ve flown from Kodiak to Larson Bay, and it looked possible.
Wrathchild
Active member
Yup, we do have ptarmigan. Not huge numbers on the road system, but I’ve taken a few over the years. Very icy this year though. Need crampons to get high right now. Ptarmigan is open til end of April so hopefully we get a thaw soon to go after em! Kyuss is def getting more fit for long days in the mountains (and helping my fitness too).
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
I did see those photos of your pup. She's a very good looking dog! If you ever find your way out here to Montana it would sure be nice to see the two work a field side by side. There's a guy in my bird dog club who picked up a langhaar puppy, but I have yet to see it in person.
Cheers,
Scot
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
@Bigsky80
Where did you get him? I know there is a club in the states but somebody (form NY) told me the club is no longer active...
It safe to say that LM might be slightly faster than DL on average. Other than that they quite similar.
Where did you get him? I know there is a club in the states but somebody (form NY) told me the club is no longer active...
Yeah... well, hopefully someday soon. Probably my favorite place.
It safe to say that LM might be slightly faster than DL on average. Other than that they quite similar.
Yeah... well, hopefully someday soon. Probably my favorite place.
It safe to say that LM might be slightly faster than DL on average. Other than that they quite similar.
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There seems to be some misinformation about the breed. The Large Munsterlander Association Of America is pretty active. There are currently 19 active breeders here in the US and fairly decent exchange with dogs from Canada and Germany. Cosmo came from Four Strong Winds which is in Potlatch, Idaho. As far as hunting style... he has no where near the legs of a GSP, but loves the dense cover and water work so he's a nearly perfect fit for the areas I like to hunt
I'm really proud of him as my first bird dog. Despite mistakes on my part he still managed a Prize 1 with a score of 110 on the NA. Sadly work has bounced me overseas quite a bit the past few years so we still need some work before tackling the UT.
It safe to say that LM might be slightly faster than DL on average. Other than that they quite similar.
[/QUOTE]
There seems to be some misinformation about the breed. The Large Munsterlander Association Of America is pretty active. There are currently 19 active breeders here in the US and fairly decent exchange with dogs from Canada and Germany. Cosmo came from Four Strong Winds which is in Potlatch, Idaho. As far as hunting style... he has no where near the legs of a GSP, but loves the dense cover and water work so he's a nearly perfect fit for the areas I like to hunt
I'm really proud of him as my first bird dog. Despite mistakes on my part he still managed a Prize 1 with a score of 110 on the NA. Sadly work has bounced me overseas quite a bit the past few years so we still need some work before tackling the UT.
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
That's good to know. There are two different clubs of DL here. One is more like AKC/NAVHDA based and other one is a German club, which I belong to and test my dog in. The same for the SM.
I was gonna run her at NA test but she will be passed allowable age. Frankly, I don't need it since she has already passed a VJP which is a NA equivalent German testing.
However, I am running her this fall for NAVHDA UT and the VGP. Will see. I am quite hopeful.
Already started blood tracking and recovery training. I will wait for a worm weather to do the advanced duck training.
If you guys know somebody who's got a deer skin (relatively fresh skinned) for sale I would buy it and pay for shipment too.
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
VJP is not harder than NAVHDA NA, in fact it is quite similar and there is no water portion.
It has 3 parts 1: Rabbit track 2: Field 3: Cooperation (Obedience is also noted, but no scores given)
The hardest part is the tack... unlike NAVHDA NA test where it's liberated pheasant, at VJP it's wild cottontail or hare. This single most important part of the test.
The flushers (two assistances) go and flush a rabbit from a thicket and then they call you and give you the hotspot of the scent. The pup needs to fallow the track methodically and desire.
VJP (dl-gna.org)
A pup that passes NAVHDA NA test will very likely pass VJP. In fact many do. Probably you would need to spend some on rabbits.
VGP is a third level test (after HZP which is more like NAVHDA UPT) that is more like NAVHDA UT plus recovery (finding dead games), 500 yard blood tracking of the same day kill or overnight kill, obstacles and such.
I think the field portion is less difficult from NAVHDA, the water works is about the same, the rest is very different. It takes two days.
VGP (dl-gna.org)
JGHV also has additional blood tracking and long distance recovery (finding and retrieving) tests. These tests are not required for breeding unless you want to hunt big game...
NAVHDA Invitational is it's own thing and there is nothing equivalent of it in JGHV.
NAVHDA was based on DKV system which is a subsystem of JGHV and is only specific to GSP. (Derby = VJP, Solms = HZP etc). They have prizes and use a 4 score system as well.
It has 3 parts 1: Rabbit track 2: Field 3: Cooperation (Obedience is also noted, but no scores given)
The hardest part is the tack... unlike NAVHDA NA test where it's liberated pheasant, at VJP it's wild cottontail or hare. This single most important part of the test.
The flushers (two assistances) go and flush a rabbit from a thicket and then they call you and give you the hotspot of the scent. The pup needs to fallow the track methodically and desire.
VJP (dl-gna.org)
A pup that passes NAVHDA NA test will very likely pass VJP. In fact many do. Probably you would need to spend some on rabbits.
VGP is a third level test (after HZP which is more like NAVHDA UPT) that is more like NAVHDA UT plus recovery (finding dead games), 500 yard blood tracking of the same day kill or overnight kill, obstacles and such.
I think the field portion is less difficult from NAVHDA, the water works is about the same, the rest is very different. It takes two days.
VGP (dl-gna.org)
JGHV also has additional blood tracking and long distance recovery (finding and retrieving) tests. These tests are not required for breeding unless you want to hunt big game...
NAVHDA Invitational is it's own thing and there is nothing equivalent of it in JGHV.
NAVHDA was based on DKV system which is a subsystem of JGHV and is only specific to GSP. (Derby = VJP, Solms = HZP etc). They have prizes and use a 4 score system as well.
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That's pretty interesting, thanks for the education. There is some discussion regarding requiring the German test as a breeding standard for LM's in the future. It has already become a requirement in Canada, but the LMAA has been reluctant to move in that direction.
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
That's called a lendsclub, which means a chapter club. It's not easy and not many people will not be up to it. That's how and why SMCA split away from KLM-GNA and the GLP club from the DL-GNA.
I was told that a Weimaraner club tried it but did not work out.
It's all boils down to the hunting culture here and over there.
For the American upland hunter it seems that system puts too much of an emphasis on game / bird recovery and tracking, while in NAVHDA is just enough, in terms of tracking, for an average hunter.
Here there are upland hunters, duck hunters, small game hunters, big game hunters etc, wherein in Germany hunters tend to be more of overall hunters relatively speaking.
This is why there is huge emphasis on tracking and recovery because you might kill a fox or rabbit as you hunt woodcock. Also if you lose your game and the ranger finds it our the fines are huge. You can not not find your game...
NAVHDA makes way more sense here and Canada.
The thing is JGHV testing origination which is also used for evaluating and vetting dogs for breeding by the breed specific club.
NAVHDA has no access to that kind of regulations. It's up to you what you do with your dog in terms of breeding. Some individuals are very strict what they breed and some... well, not so much.
While in the German clubs not only the dog's natural and hunting quality is taken into account but it's physicals attributes evaluated in the breed shows, sound on the track, willingness to dispatch a small varmint and mental soundness.
I heard of some people whose dog's didn't meet a certain requirement and were not allowed to breed there dogs... and they left. I honestly feel for both party.
Honestly one of the reasons the LM's appealed to me is that they cannot be bred without at least passing the NA. It is my understanding that the interest in the German hunt tests would be to facilitate breeding between Canadian, German and US dogs.
My only issue with some of the more advanced tests is that at some point they become more of a test of a persons ability to train and handle and less of a test of a dogs ability. I know Cosmo can out perform my aptitude as a trainer.
My only issue with some of the more advanced tests is that at some point they become more of a test of a persons ability to train and handle and less of a test of a dogs ability. I know Cosmo can out perform my aptitude as a trainer.
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
Well... unfortunately (or fortunately for some) that system (JGHV) is somewhat closed system and only their (VJP & HZP) test counts for breeding approval.
So you might have an excellent NAVHDA UT level dog, but he won't be let in that breeding program.
As soon as the LM club becomes a German chapter club all rules will be changed. For some it's a big NO.
Now, you can run your dog in many venues as you like but they won't count towards breeding unless he passes VJP and HZP + breed show + sound on the track + toughness test.
This is an excellent point. And this where NAVHDA and JGHV differ.
After the NA test comes the second level tests (UPT in NAVHDA and HZP in JGHV) which includes a dragged game recovery / retrieve and water works such as searching in the pond or marsh and finding / retrieving a duck.
Both of the test are similar if not the same in this sense. However, for the HZP it is still assumed that the dog is young and still relays on natural abilities and he has not been fully trained yet.
The test scores is divided into tow subjects; natural abilities and trained abilities. See below.
So the point here is that dog should be trained to the level that conceals some natural abilities. This why at this level they don't ask the dog to be trained for steadiness at blind, or flush, which NAVDA does.
As for the third level tests such as VGP it will be a lot depend on the training and obedience. See 2nd screenshot.
VGP
