What Axles configuration? (6 x 6 vs. 8 x 8)

[Spidouz]

Hi Everyone,

It's my first post over here, but I've been reading for quite some time already (mainly due to some search about 6 x 6 Camper that lead me to a post of egn).

By the past, I only did some "tourist" travels and vacations. But in 2006, I did my real Expedition, on motorcycle (that was actually not really ready for snow crossing Alps, or mud in Greece).

It was a pretty nice European tour (France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Croatia, Slovenia, Italy (boat) Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Germany, Luxembourg and back to France). Since this day, I can't wait for another expedition. Back in 2010, with my friend, we wanted to do a new tour, around the Mediterranean Sea this time... but due to some financial problems and Arabic Revolutions in Lybia, Egypt, etc... we finally just report it for later.

But since I'm starting to have some really bad back pains and I'm not quite sure I could support any travel on bike, I'm considering to switch to trucks (for more comfort I will definitely appreciate later when I'll getting older). I don't have the Truck License yet but that's something I plan to pass in 2013

I was looking on some models and I found the XTerra 966 from ReiseMobil-Reparatur:



I find this system very interesting and quite similar from the egn's 6x6 Blue Camper I saw on this forum. However, I like the idea to not have the cabin attached to the truck (for so many reasons):

It will take quite some time and a lot of help from my friends, but I could probably build a "Home Container" by myself... but probably with a 20' Container similar to the 3 in 1 Container from UniTeam:

So, that's the global overview of the project I might do over the next years.

But, out of curiosity, I was wondering what Truck configuration would be the more appropriate for this kind of project. In any case, it would be a Truck with a Hooklifter (to be able to load/unload the container), and payload isn't really a problem I think (any configuration should work).

Maybe I'm wrong, so if that's the case please correct me, but I have the impression than a 8 x 8 (let's say a MAN TGS 35.480) might have better traction tough situation (sand, mud, snow, etc...) but will also have a higher fuel consumption than a 6 x 6 (let's say a MAN TGS 33.480). And I don't think we can have HydroDrive or Airlifting on driven axles. And size wise a 6 x 6 might surely be shorter with a better handiness (shorter turn radius, etc...).

It could be other models from other brands, it didn't really matter. I used MAN as example because that's the only ones that I know so far, but that's something that I could easily change (that's the whole purpose of having the Container instead of a fixed cabin).

So regardless the obvious tag price difference, what Container Truck would you choose?

A 6x6:


or a 8x8:


And why?

Thanks,
Phil

 

[dwh]

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/81279-Tatra-T815-my-saga


I like the center transaxle/independent suspension design for a lot of reasons, including better traction and frame rigidity. I also like the huge cab and air-cooled diesel engine.

I would say 6x6 rather than 8x8.

Reason: Weight. If you have a truck that weighs enough to require 4 axles, then it must be incredibly heavy. A lighter truck that can be easily supported by 3 axles (and stopped by 6 brakes rather than 8) would be my preference.

 

[grizzlyj]

4x4

If you have been happy enough travelling on a bike why do you need something so heavy?

Two people only?

You could build a 4x4 truck 6m long with more than enough room, shower, fixed bed etc, be under 7.5tons, twice the fuel consumption of any of the trucks you list (I would think).

That lightness then means you only need a hand jack (which could be hydraulically powered if you wanted) on each corner to dismount the camper.

Put an Alaskan (or other pop top camper) on the back and the travelling height could be cab height.

Fuel, tolls, ferries, tyres, all cheaper. Access everywhere more easily

Unless you're staying in the USA then perhaps maybe it doesn't matter as much Then 8x8 to decrease ground pressure, have two steering axles, and add a hot tub and big lounge with bar. No dual wheels though!

 

[Spidouz]

Thank you guys for your responds.

@Grizzly: I understand your point of view, and indeed the 4x4 has a lot of favors you listed, but it's not a matter of being under 7.5 tons or not.
For my project, I choose to go with a 20' Container with slides, therefor the 4x4 Top Camper isn't an option.

My reasons are simple:

I'm not trying to build an expedition vehicle, but I'm really considering it as a real "Mobile Home", which means than before to be Mobile, it would be my Home (not only few months in the year). I really considering it as a home I can move anywhere I want or need. I moved few times between France and the US and everytime it did cost me a fortune in shipping (by plane) for few boxes only. In the end, I learned it would have cost me way less to ship an entire container (by boat).

So no hot tub, big lounge and bar... but at least something big enough to be usable all year long by a couple (and potential future family... because I'm thinking in a long term). And for this case, the container is the perfect match to my project that, once extended, will correspond to a small 30-40 m2 apartment.

It's an ambitious project, I agree... but no more than considering to buy an apartment/house (that you can't take with you if you need to move)

I hope it makes sense now

Phil

 

[mog]

My first vote would be for 4x4, but I understand your reasoning for a 'larger' truck.
Less axles = less weight, less maintenance, less tire cost, and less road/toll costs when traveling (most charge by size & number of axles)
The extra axle(s) mainly help with weight carrying (ie: more) and if you have a very heavy load, weight distribution over the ground when off-road.
So add axles for weight capacity, not mobility.

 

[Spidouz]

Makes sense, considering I wouldn't have heavy payload (such 20, 30 or even 40 tons) even with a "fully-loaded" home container.
So a 6x6 made to carry, climb and break with with a 33 tons weight could easily do it with 15 tons.

I was wrongly considering the 8x8 for mobility, but in any case I won't do extreme offroad, trying to drive under 20 ft of water and mud or climbing 89° hills. By the past, I've done some interesting offroad riding (with not offroad bike by the way, because it was an '06 Aprilia Tuono 1000 RR) as you can see here:

But that's not "extreme offroad" riding/driving and it's manageable because it doesn't happen every single day. So I just want an offroad solution to be able to leave big axes pavement roads to go to places where there's no road yet... but I don't want to go to places where men have never been (speaking-wise because we know those places probably don't exist anymore).

So I think you're right, in my case a 6x6 such the Man TGS or Tatra T810 (or equivalent) would probably be enough.
And there's probably also no need to go for heavy duty military style trucks such the Man KAT1 or Tatra T815 that might be "too much" for my use.

The great idea of having a Container is also to be able to change the truck 10 years later for another model (better model, newer, whatever) if needed.
Containers are pretty robust and should last long enough for me

Thanks for the info,
Phil

 

[camperman]

4x4 same reasons as grizzlyj posted

 

[mog]

I see you have both a USA and Euro location so I’d guess you would purchase an 8x8 in Europe based on the photo examples. Most of the 8x8s in the US are off road large cranes, so very-very expensive (not much of a market for the giant crane you would be removing) or 'crash trucks' and most of those 8x8 are over the 102” wide federal width limit. So I’d think there is a very small selection of 8x8s on this side of the Atlantic.

On the other had, many more 6x6. Check out this Expo thread.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/79218-(mostly)-Low-cost-4x4-diesel-high-capacity-chassis-examples
3 recent Government Liquidation auctions for 6x6 Ford FT900 and Navistar International (commercial trucks, not Military) sold $1,785 to $4,926
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/79218-(mostly)-Low-cost-4x4-diesel-high-capacity-chassis-examples?p=1208045#post1208045
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/79218-(mostly)-Low-cost-4x4-diesel-high-capacity-chassis-examples?p=1212873#post1212873
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/79218-(mostly)-Low-cost-4x4-diesel-high-capacity-chassis-examples?p=1223214#post1223214

 

[redneck44]

4x4
Unimog, Man, DAF, GAZ 66, RB44 and probably a few more are all very capable off road and can carry a self contained box suitable for 1,2 or more people, with a significantly smaller budget for fuel and maintenance. Not forgetting that many towns, bridges etc have size and weight limits that the larger vehicles exceed.
A container, if you mean shipping container, is an awful lot of weight for very little benefit, and the time involved in making one into a camper could build you a scratch built box more suited to the job.


Of course money no object, then can only be one

 

[Spidouz]

@camperman / redneck44: Same reply as the one I did to grizzly. 4x4 is not an option and the question on this thread is not about 4x4.
It's about 6x6 vs. 8x8, and I even explained why... I'm using a 20' Shipping Container that will be CSC Compliant to be shippable.
Don't be offended, but I'm not building a "Camper", I plan to build a "Home" that I can move anywhere and I'm seeking for the best truck that could move it.

@mog: Yes, it's based on the European models such the Man TGS, Tatra T810, Scania R500, Mercedes Actros, Volvo FMX or any truck in that size (COE) with a Hooklift.

Phil

 

[mog]

... I'm using a 20' Shipping Container that will be CSC Compliant to be shippable.

It is a pretty cool concept what you are planning. I sure wish we had that selection of trucks!
You might want to keep an eye out for these military shelters when they are surplussed. They seem to go for about 10 cents on the dollar at auction.
I've included the tare weights so you have an idea as to that. Being military they are probably heavier duty (and heavier) then civilian ones.
You can use the category 5411 (ridged wall structures) at www.govliquidation.com to check for auctions.

Non-Expandable 20 Ft. ISO Shelter Dimensions: Exterior 19'-11"L × 8'W × 8'H, Interior 19’L × 7'-6"W × 7'-2"H
NSN: 5411-01-209-3451, Weight: 3750 lbs (Marine)
NSN: 5411-01-355-4322, Weight: 5235 lbs (Navy)

One Side Expandable 20 Ft ISO Shelter Dimensions: Exterior 19'-11"L × 8'W × 8'H, Interior (Transport Mode) 19'-1"L × 7'W × 7'-1"H, Interior (Expanded) 18'-4"L × 14'-6"W × 7'-1"H
S-783/G - 60 Amp Service: NSN 5411-01-124-1377 Weight: 5400 lbs (Army)
S-784/G - 100 Amp Service: NSN 5411-01-295-3433 Weight: 5400 lbs (Army)

Two Side Expandable 20 Ft ISO Shelter Dimensions: Exterior 19'-11"L × 8'W × 8'H, Interior (Transport) 19'-1"L × 6'-5"W × 7'-1"H, Interior (Expanded) 18'-4"L × 21'-6"W × 7'-1"H
S-785/G - 60 Amp Service: NSN 5411-01-136-9838 Weight: 6900 lbs (Army)
S-786/G - 100 Amp Service: NSN 5411-01-294-9866 Weight: 6900 lbs (Army)

 

[camperman]

@camperman / redneck44: Same reply as the one I did to grizzly. 4x4 is not an option and the question on this thread is not about 4x4.
It's about 6x6 vs. 8x8, and I even explained why... I'm using a 20' Shipping Container that will be CSC Compliant to be shippable.
Don't be offended, but I'm not building a "Camper", I plan to build a "Home" that I can move anywhere and I'm seeking for the best truck that could move it.

@mog: Yes, it's based on the European models such the Man TGS, Tatra T810, Scania R500, Mercedes Actros, Volvo FMX or any truck in that size (COE) with a Hooklift.

Phil

OK. Than 6x6. 8x8 is far too heavy&huge

 

[Spidouz]

Indeed, I think 8x8 might be too heavy & huge, even for a shipping Container.

Don't get me wrong, if I would "only" build a Camper, I would probably look for a 4x4 such the MAN TGM 13.290 or 18.340... I love this one and it would probably be perfect for some nice adventure tour, with enough room even for a family of 4 or 5. But then I wouldn't still have a home and I would have to choose between build a house or buy an Offroad Camper. Now, I will win the lottery (of if I could raise my paycheck), everything could change

Thank you mog for the link and all the info. I'm gonna look carefully about that. It looks very interesting...

Phil

 

[grizzlyj]

I have to say I still don't really get how you can save money by building a house you can ship to the USA? Even if the shipping was say £3K, + import tax etc, wouldn't that still takes weeks with accomodation to find in between?

All the camper mains voltages would be wrong? Spare parts for what you bought in Europe may well only be easily available in Europe when you're in the USA.

Would your Euro job be in one place, so your house would only move for short term trips? If you really think fitting out a container is better than renting a house then do you really need a truck at all? Hire a truck, driver and HIAB to move it whenever you do?

Or buy an RV and a Jeep sized thing you can tow with it. Buy the same when you get to the USA. Save a lot of time and perhaps money. Driving to the shops in Western Europe in a 6x6 truck will not be easy or fun a lot of the time.

I'm sure I shouldn't prod your idea like this, I just can't get a train of thought to agree with you But if you've sold yourself the idea then more prodding won't sway you anyway

 

[Spidouz]

It's OK, you probably just don't understand where I'm going, but don't worry, I have a very good idea... I'm not saying that "I know" because I'm still learning every day, but I have a really good idea.

Let's just take few examples. I spent at least 3,000€ when I moved few boxes from France to US. For what? few clothes and devices I needed (computer, etc..). For almost the same price I could have a whole container shipped (with all my stuff I had). Now it's a little bit more expensive I think because of the gas increased price. The worst thing when you're traveling or living on different places is that you always miss what you left at "your home"... not a big deal if you only spend few months traveling and will be back home quickly... but it's a bigger deal when you move from place to place. For instance right now I'm in France, but some of "my stuff" is still in Houston, TX on a storage... or even like my old 'vette that is sitting on the parking lot of my old apartment in Austin, TX if it hasn't been stolen or towed.

And when you start living on two places, you start multiplying by two everything you need and buy, and that's why I'm driving a little Renault car over here but in the end I think it's just a total no-sense to me. Up to everyone to think differently.

So, I'm having the idea to build a little house based on a 20' Shipping Container. With Slides, it could be pretty similar to an A-Class American RV, which is actually enough for me to live in 24/7. Some of you might love to have 3,000 or 5,000 sq.ft house, but I just don't care much about it anymore (and I grow up on a big house). And instead to spend $300K and more in a house, I'd prefer to spend it on a mobile house. Smaller but movable... bring back the bohemian lifestyle

So having a shippable container would allow me to actually ship my "whole house" when I need or want to move somewhere. Since container are pretty standard anywhere in the world, I could move anywhere in the world, not just in the US. For the work I do right now, as long I have electricity and some decent internet, it's fine... What I'm working right now in France, I could probably do it in the UK, or in Ireland, in Argentina or in Japan, etc... (just to name few). Actually it would even be better if I could do it at those places (but that's just a personal point of view).

So now, combine both things, add to the fact I did fall in love with traveling since my last adventure. It just makes sense that I would only need my Truck License and a Truck with a Hook-lift to load my Container and go anywhere I want, find a new place to discover for a few moment until I move to another place.

Even for the voltage, etc... it wouldn't be a problem, it would be even easier. Right now, I'm always carrying all kind of adapter for different plugs (from US, to European, and even UK since I went twice there). By moving the "house" with me will allow me to always keep the same plugs inside the Container, no matter where I am; so all I will need is different cables when I'll be plugged to the local grid. But that's probably something anyone would like if you plan to travel anywhere in the world, right?

Also, the one great thing about the fact to use a Truck with a Hook-Lift (Roll-on/Roll-off) will also be the ability to have another empty regular shipping container if I need to move or transport some stuff, or perhaps even to ship my car (I'm actually considering a Jeep ), etc... I currently use some large van when I need to move some equipment and if I could use a truck it would be so much easier.

I understand it's probably not really a "Camper Situation" because it's more a combination of several things such the desire to travel, the ability to work virtually anywhere and the wish to have my own place (with me all the time). I'm only 36 and I already moved something like 12 or 13 times (having done 7 years in the army did help a little bit). Back in 2008, I lived for few months in hotel rooms, taking planes and trains 3 or 4 times a week.

Now, I just wish I could have my own home and travel with it... be able to change my landscape and my backyard at any time. I know it might be a weird concept and I'm really not trying to convince anyone about it. I actually I even understand anyone that could be skeptical about it. I'm still considering all PROs and CONs about it, because it might be a life change for me.

I know a large and heavier 6x6 with Container might have some down sides for fuel consumption, mobility, practicality (not having connection between the Container and the Truck cabin), the need to town the car when I'll be moving the container, and some difficulties for extreme offroad... but that's still doable when I see some project done by Unicat, Action Mobile or even some converted old military truck...

I might be wrong, but to me, anything is drivable; for almost a month I did drive a limo (probably 25' long) as my primary car when my vette was to the shop. Ok it was in the US, but the only place I couldn't go is the drive thru at Jack in the box... which is actually a good thing because it wasn't really healthy enough... so that's OK and I guess all down sides of the 6x6 might be the price to pay for my project to have a real "Mobile Home"

Sorry for this long (and probably boring) post about my life, but I just wanted to bring some light on the reasons why I came to my conclusion.

Phil