What is the deal with Rovers?

[Viggen]

It's not very difficult to get rid of all of the electronics on a D1. The largest stumbling block is location dependent for the OBDII versions, as you can be limited to engine choices and that can impact what electronics you can get rid of.
Where I live I could get rid of them all in my 95 Disovery.

The "average" owner won't be keeping their cars long, or are unlikely to be buying a used Discovery anyway at the point when the OEM or pattern part fuel pump is NLA. That means more parts vehicles for those of us who do keep them.

My largest concern is things like window seals. Things like that you can't really get used.

I too have a 95 but there is a pretty good amount of electronics in there that aggravates me sometimes. OBDI trucks were two years only, 94/ 95 and those are very hard to find as most have rusted into the ground. That leaves you with only OBDII 1996 and newer trucks to play with and then you open up the BIG electronics nightmare and the can of worms where any change to the system results in an automatic fail of state inspection. That means no repower options really without some SERIOUS wiring.

True, the "average" owner will be getting rid of their truck at the first hint of hardship, Craigslist is the shining example of that. Needs a head gasket: $500 on the 'list. Look at the OP as another example. Hes looking to get into Rovers because they are cheap. The problem is, most Rover owners are "average." The amount of us who love the trucks and all their eccentricities is a slimming number. With "average" owners drying up, so does the likelihood of aftermarket, non oem manufacturers picking up the call for parts will not happen. Less on the road, less demand, less parts.

 

[Timbob955]

Hi Guys,

Don't know if this is any help but you can get repair panels for RRC, Defender and D1 in the UK. Give these guys http://www.yrm-metal-solutions.co.uk/index.asp a try.

Good luck!

 

[RabidRover]

Where there is a will, there is a way. There are enough "MacGyvers" out there to keep the evolution of them moving forward ... just don't turn them into trailer queens.

 

[Wander]

Speaking of that TD5 -DII in B'ham-anyone notice there is not a picture of the engine bay in the listing-since that is the reason for the asking price and is the one very different thing from that DII and all others you would think there would be more detail on the engine. Nice looking DII and I'm sure it will find it's buyer sometime.

 

[TeriAnn]

My largest concern is things like window seals. Things like that you can't really get used.

I think there is a very good chance that your local auto glass chain shop will either have something that works or can order it.

A few years ago I have an auto glass shop replace the windscreen & seals for my Triumph TR3. The guy looked it up in his catalogue, looked up and asked if I wanted clear or tinted. 50 year old British car, no problem.

 

[Alaska Mike]

Unfortunately, the newer the design, the less likely it is that a McGuyver can swing a repair with off-the-shelf items. A flat-panel, modular rig like a Defender or Series truck is much easier to fabricate parts for.

The sad fact is that the majority of these rigs are headed to the crusher, and a lot of parts will be lost. Those that are salvaged will command ever-increasing prices as stocks deplete. The core of owners will look overseas for parts, but eventually they will dry up too. Not many owners will be willing to do an engine/transmission swap, despite the number of threads about it here.
Gas prices will increase, regulations will get tighter, and other options will start to look better. It's only a matter of time before rust and gravity will win.

In the meantime, enjoy your Rover. Maintain it well, modify it to meet your needs, and get out there and have fun. I wish I had the resources to get out as much as I did 10 years ago, but changing priorities and increasing costs pretty much put the end to those days. Gas alone would run me $500 a month for 4, single-day trips, not to mention maintenance/repair/logistical costs. In another 10 years, I may not be able to afford driving a capable 4x4 at all.

I'm not all gloom and doom, but I have to be realistic. It isn't getting any cheaper, and the pool of people that have the resources and are willing to commit them is getting smaller. The SUV boom is over, and off-roading as a sport will likely start fading as gas prices go up and suitable platforms start disappearing. Rust never sleeps.

What won't likely change is the need to explore and see what's around the next bend. How you get there might differ, though.

Doesn't mean that I'm going to stop dumping cash into my Rover pile in the hopes that it might one day move.

 

[Viggen]

I think there is a very good chance that your local auto glass chain shop will either have something that works or can order it.

A few years ago I have an auto glass shop replace the windscreen & seals for my Triumph TR3. The guy looked it up in his catalogue, looked up and asked if I wanted clear or tinted. 50 year old British car, no problem.

A flat piece of glass is no big deal. We were doing a restore on a Singer in the shop a few years ago. Local shop MADE the glass in front of us. It was cool and involved some sort of alcohol, fire and a straight edge. Seals on the early Brit frames are just strips of rubber. Not so much on the newer stuff.

Unfortunately, the newer the design, the less likely it is that a McGuyver can swing a repair with off-the-shelf items. A flat-panel, modular rig like a Defender or Series truck is much easier to fabricate parts for.

The sad fact is that the majority of these rigs are headed to the crusher, and a lot of parts will be lost. Those that are salvaged will command ever-increasing prices as stocks deplete. The core of owners will look overseas for parts, but eventually they will dry up too. Not many owners will be willing to do an engine/transmission swap, despite the number of threads about it here.
Gas prices will increase, regulations will get tighter, and other options will start to look better. It's only a matter of time before rust and gravity will win.

In the meantime, enjoy your Rover. Maintain it well, modify it to meet your needs, and get out there and have fun. I wish I had the resources to get out as much as I did 10 years ago, but changing priorities and increasing costs pretty much put the end to those days. Gas alone would run me $500 a month for 4, single-day trips, not to mention maintenance/repair/logistical costs. In another 10 years, I may not be able to afford driving a capable 4x4 at all.

I'm not all gloom and doom, but I have to be realistic. It isn't getting any cheaper, and the pool of people that have the resources and are willing to commit them is getting smaller. The SUV boom is over, and off-roading as a sport will likely start fading as gas prices go up and suitable platforms start disappearing. Rust never sleeps.

What won't likely change is the need to explore and see what's around the next bend. How you get there might differ, though.

Doesn't mean that I'm going to stop dumping cash into my Rover pile in the hopes that it might one day move.

This is true. The costs of maintaining and driving these trucks is going up, whether its from parts availability and the cost incurred in finding replacement parts or external costs like fuel and oil. I love my trucks and will continue driving them but, like you said, it is not getting any cheaper. The average owner does not have interest in keeping spare parts trucks around. Im not an average owner and have NO interest, or space, in keeping a parts truck around. We still are years off of having to scrounge for parts and luckily there is a stand up guy like Will to feed us good, used stuff but I was a little shocked when I heard, and experienced the result, of Tata deciding to no longer manufacture some parts.

 

[ExpoScout]

I guess I'm gonna have to go against the flow here and say that I disagree. Maybe I'm just being optimistic...

But I have to draw experience from my dealing with Scouts and other fairly obscure vehicles. Yes, Scouts for instance use many more generic parts than LRs do, but even 30 years after they have stopped production there are still companies that produce body parts, engine parts, etc. When one company stops making a part, as long as there's at least some following, someone will step up and begin making that part. I also know that comparing Scouts to a Discovery is kind of apples to oranges....more appropriate might be Scouts to series Rovers, due to the simplicity...but the concept remains the same.

I'm not saying it might not take some creativity for some things and it might be a little pricier, but where there's a will there will always be a way. And what will likely happen, as did with the whole scout "scene" is that 20 or so years people went back to the vehicle they had in their youth and revived the demand for many of the parts. I would be willing to bet that even here in the US a company will pop up that will begin to make body parts and such...at some point. Might not be soon, but I could see it happening.

 

[Paladin]

I guess I'm gonna have to go against the flow here and say that I disagree. Maybe I'm just being optimistic...

But I have to draw experience from my dealing with Scouts and other fairly obscure vehicles. Yes, Scouts for instance use many more generic parts than LRs do, but even 30 years after they have stopped production there are still companies that produce body parts, engine parts, etc. When one company stops making a part, as long as there's at least some following, someone will step up and begin making that part. I also know that comparing Scouts to a Discovery is kind of apples to oranges....more appropriate might be Scouts to series Rovers, due to the simplicity...but the concept remains the same.

I'm not saying it might not take some creativity for some things and it might be a little pricier, but where there's a will there will always be a way. And what will likely happen, as did with the whole scout "scene" is that 20 or so years people went back to the vehicle they had in their youth and revived the demand for many of the parts. I would be willing to bet that even here in the US a company will pop up that will begin to make body parts and such...at some point. Might not be soon, but I could see it happening.

I'm with you on this. I have trouble believing the sky is falling. They sold a LOT of discoveries compared to say... Austin Healeys... but guys are still driving Healeys 50 years later.

Worst case, we'll be scrounging for body panels from the SW, and repowering with GM engines, but I really don't think the usability of these things will come to an end.

The axles can be swapped for Toyota axles already. Suspension and brakes is really easy stuff to fabricate. The ECU can easily be changed for a programmable aftermarket unit. The engine can be swapped for a 4.3L V6 already, or one of the diesels.

The only thing I'm concerned about is things like the body control unit. But even that is easily replaceable today with an open-source control unit if somebody cared to develop one. I could put a fully programmable colour touchscreen PLC to replace the BCU today if I wanted. This stuff really isn't a big deal.

Even then I see that Rimmer Bros already has an aftermarket windscreen, for example. Think that's just going to disappear after LR drops it's Genuine production? Hardly likely.

It may cease to be "easy", but then no old car is "easy" to keep on the road. Never has been. Never will.

 

[Viggen]

I'm with you on this. I have trouble believing the sky is falling. They sold a LOT of discoveries compared to say... Austin Healeys... but guys are still driving Healeys 50 years later.

Worst case, we'll be scrounging for body panels from the SW, and repowering with GM engines, but I really don't think the usability of these things will come to an end.

The axles can be swapped for Toyota axles already. Suspension and brakes is really easy stuff to fabricate. The ECU can easily be changed for a programmable aftermarket unit. The engine can be swapped for a 4.3L V6 already, or one of the diesels.

The only thing I'm concerned about is things like the body control unit. But even that is easily replaceable today with an open-source control unit if somebody cared to develop one. I could put a fully programmable colour touchscreen PLC to replace the BCU today if I wanted. This stuff really isn't a big deal.

Even then I see that Rimmer Bros already has an aftermarket windscreen, for example. Think that's just going to disappear after LR drops it's Genuine production? Hardly likely.

It may cease to be "easy", but then no old car is "easy" to keep on the road. Never has been. Never will.

We know what "we" could do but the conversation was about what the "average" user would do and no one believes that the "average" user would go through the trouble of swapping in Toyo axles, swapping in a different motor and dealing with all the rewiring related to keeping full OBDII functionality or wiring in a new BCU replacement with an aftermarket, open source unit. As it is, I see a couple of P38s on Craigslist often posted by people who didnt want to pay the $1k+ to replace the BCU.

I dont think that it will be tough but I also dont think that it will be as easy as maintaining a British sports car either. The Defender will be but I highly doubt that the RRC or D1 will be.

 

[David Harris]

We know what "we" could do but the conversation was about what the "average" user would do

The "average" user hardly matters in a discussion like this. The average users won't be the ones driving these vehicles in 30 years, just like those driving Series trucks aren't "average" by any means. Just about everything for Discos is made by the aftermarket in the UK, and will continue to be because there are so many of these trucks over there, more than all other Rovers combined I would guess. Rovers are like Jeeps over there when it comes to the aftermarket. Just pull out a copy of Land Rover Owners International to see this. Range Rovers will be tougher because there were never as many built. I personally have no problem repowering one of these beasts, and plan to do so in the near future. As far as electronics go, just strip them all out and rewire the vehicle. Problem solved and it would actually improve the truck because the electronics are the most problematic thing in my experience.

David

 

[Alaska Mike]

Re-powering only works for areas where it is legal (or at least non-inspected). We're talking about modern, OBD-era vehicles, not a pre-smog rig. How many years before even the 1st US spec Discos are smog exempt? An engine swap is much more involved on a Disco than it is on my Series or CJ, and the aftermarket support is greatly reduced because the enthusiast market in the US is much, much smaller.

With fuel prices going up, the car culture is likely on the decline- especially the non-efficient kind, which means larger vehicles like real SUVs and trucks. That's just a pragmatic long-view. The government's position is that older vehicles don't make sense, from an economic (think manufacturing base), safety (air bags, crush zones), and environmental standpoint (we can debate that one all day), and therefore vehicles should have a service life and then be removed from the roads. If history has taught me anything, it that regulation rarely gets any looser on vehicles. Most junkyards are crushing vehicles fairly quickly, as scrap prices are up and environmental regulations about keeping junk cars become more restrictive. They're pulling the parts they can move quickly for a profit, and then clearing the yard. Specialty junkyards usually keep the stuff around longer, but how many significant Rover-only yards are in the States?

You're always going to have your enthusiasts. However, they're going to be a very small group for the Discos and Rangies. They're already in the minority now, and how long do you think it will be before threads with casual inquiries about them start to fade? In 10 years, how many of these $2000-$3000 Craigslist Discos will still be around for them to ask about? Without a steady stream of interested newbies, your core will become smaller and smaller. Will Land Rover still be in the US market then?

Again, enjoy your vehicle, maintain it well, and make some lasting memories with it. Nothing lasts forever, except those bottles of gear oil in the garage that I've been meaning to take in...

 

[Howski]

aren't vehicles 20 years or older exempt from emissions tests in most places? this would knock down one barrier to a engine change, although you'd still have to deal with the pita electronics on the DII

 

[David Harris]

Re-powering only works for areas where it is legal (or at least non-inspected).

With fuel prices going up, the car culture is likely on the decline- especially the non-efficient kind, which means larger vehicles like real SUVs and trucks.

Again, enjoy your vehicle, maintain it well, and make some lasting memories with it. Nothing lasts forever, except those bottles of gear oil in the garage that I've been meaning to take in...

All good points. On the repowering, I am speaking from the perspective of where I am, which has a population of less than a person per square mile and will never have emissions inspection, at least not in my lifetime. My goal is to get at least 25 mpg out of my Disco or RR. I'll be much happier then using it everyday or for long trips.

True on the number of enthusiasts out there, but since the number is small and getting smaller for Rovers, then fewer spares will be required at the same time. Definitely a good idea to have some parts vehicles around in reserve. With a couple of good ones, you could go another 50 years easily.

For all practical purposes we're fine for now, so let's just enjoy the vehicles as you say.

 

[Paladin]

BTW, as far as engine swaps and OBDII testing is concerned....

http://www.scantool.net/ecu-simulators/ecusim-family/ecusim-2000.html

<cough>

aren't vehicles 20 years or older exempt from emissions tests in most places? this would knock down one barrier to a engine change, although you'd still have to deal with the pita electronics on the DII

What, exactly, is the problem with the DII electronics?