When a winch line breaks...

[classic72]

Researching new winches and all this sales hype on synthetic is enough to scare a bear. I have only ever used steel cable and am looking for a new winch. I have NEVER broken a winch line nor have I seen one break in person, just heard the stories. I understand and can envision synthetic is safer when the line itself breaks... but is synthetic really that much safer when it comes to things like recovery gear failing (e.g. a Clevis shackle or hook flying back at you when a recovery point on a vehicle fails)? I understand it doesn't hold as much energy, but if there is 8K pounds of tension and the recovery point on the vehicle fails won't it still come sailing back at you pretty hard? These synthetic lines have to have some spring to them it appears...

The reason I ask is I only use a winch two to three times a year max and am not sure I want to shell out the extra $$$ for synthetic or deal with it's maintenance since I am often in dusty/rocky climate often and when not there am in the mountains using it working with logs, etc. People pushing synthetic make you feel like steel cable is just lurking to kill you when you aren't looking (even though my experience is 100% the opposite having never broken one or seen one break). My opinion a 12K winch motor would give out before a 15.5K (undamaged) maintained steel cable would snap....

What are your thoughts on this topic?

Second question... this is my first winch on a large 3/4 ton that weighs in at around 8500Lbs. Do you think one could get by with a quality 10K winch since most winching will be on level ground in sand or on slightly sloped ground?

My thoughts are if for some reason I was really stuck hard I could just use a snatch block. Is that a sound idea?

I have read that a bogged vehicle in clay with level ground in single line pull creates only 50% of the vehicle weights load on the winch (e.g. 8,200Lb vehicle only using 4,100Lb. load on winch and equipment).

 

[calicamper]

Researching new winches and all this sales hype on synthetic is enough to scare a bear. I have only ever used steel cable and am looking for a new winch. I have NEVER broken a winch line nor have I seen one break in person, just heard the stories. I understand and can envision synthetic is safer when the line itself breaks... but is synthetic really that much safer when it comes to things like recovery gear failing (e.g. a Clevis shackle or hook flying back at you when a recovery point on a vehicle fails)? I understand it doesn't hold as much energy, but if there is 8K pounds of tension and the recovery point on the vehicle fails won't it still come sailing back at you pretty hard? These synthetic lines have to have some spring to them it appears...

The reason I ask is I only use a winch two to three times a year max and am not sure I want to shell out the extra $$$ for synthetic or deal with it's maintenance since I am often in dusty/rocky climate often and when not there am in the mountains using it working with logs, etc. People pushing synthetic make you feel like steel cable is just lurking to kill you when you aren't looking (even though my experience is 100% the opposite having never broken one or seen one break). My opinion a 12K winch motor would give out before a 15.5K (undamaged) maintained steel cable would snap....

What are your thoughts on this topic?

Second question... this is my first winch on a large 3/4 ton that weighs in at around 8500Lbs. Do you think one could get by with a quality 10K winch since most winching will be on level ground in sand or on slightly sloped ground?

My thoughts are if for some reason I was really stuck hard I could just use a snatch block. Is that a sound idea?

I have read that a bogged vehicle in clay with level ground in single line pull creates only 50% of the vehicle weights load on the winch (e.g. 8,200Lb vehicle only using 4,100Lb. load on winch and equipment).

As a sailor I can tell you the synthetic used is awesome stuff. Its been used in the sail boat racing world for way way longer than the winch world. Your enemy is UV damage due to not covering it. Which case its an easy thing to live with. Dramatically lighter and easier to work with.

 

[Lucky j]

I have, many times see a synthetic line spring back to the winch drum like a mad rubber band. So I guess that if the anchor point would give that the clevis would probably come back pretty fast.

But I'm like you, beside lab test videos, I have never seen a steel wire break in a real winching situation. But I know they do break, but is it all that much more dramatic than a syntetic line, I do not know. I would beleive that steel give away a few strand at a time so you would see it coming, as for synthetic, It is all or nothing, no warning and no, a simple knot will not fix it. That is if it is not all the way stuck in the rope close to mid drum. (That I have also seen)

For the rest, the discussion is probably on again!

 

[AFBronco235]

I'll ignore the steel vs. synthetic debate for now. (Go with steel. Its simpler and safer.)

As for your winch power, I think you need to upsize a bit. On flat, level concrete, you may only have half the vehicles weight on the line, but on soft ground where its bogged down to the point of immobility, you're going to need to pull at least the weight of the vehicle. The reason is that you'll either be pulling through the mud/clay/sand or you'll be pulling it up over some obstacles like a log or rock. Either way, you'll be pulling more that the weight of your vehicle. Sometimes its more than double the vehicle's total loaded weight. Check out the winching power tables on a copy of FM-22. A snatch block or two will help, but then you get into line rates and motor burnout issues so its really up to you to know what kind of situations you'll be in and what you'll need to get out of them.

 

[Scott H Murray]

This is what can happen with snatch straps.

 

[Scott H Murray]

Video of winch line breaking.

[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/3hhoxdeu48bhy25/Screenshot%202015-03-18%2020.53.23.png?dl=0[/video]

 

[classic72]

Thanks for the input guys! Just wanted to update that I went with a 12.5K w/ steel line. I know them, I use them, and I have had great success with them and prefer the simplicity. I added two additional winch dampers to my recovery kit as well.

 

[calicamper]

Not a debate just some info. Us sailors use the synthetic stuff non stop for 1000's of miles under loads that far surpass winching loads. We even use it to hold up $30,000 masts across oceans. Synthetic lines fail in a similar manner as steel cable the threads show damage and breaking prior to failure. Poorly made braded looped ends and shackles are typically the most common failure second to chaffing over a period of time. Example 17days of non stop ocean racing frome SF to Oahu we started having spinnaker halyard issues due the 15,000lb rated synthetic was being pushed too hard surfing a 12,000lb boat non stop for 7days strait. The synthetic core was showing damage through out the length of the line. But the failure point was were it got constant movement at the shackle on the sail. Winch use is like 10,000 times less wear and abuse than the constant day after day abuse we dish out on the sail boat. We stopped using cable because it was heavy, dangerous and no more reliable than synthetic. Only risk to synthetic is UV damage which case its easier to cover a winch than 150ft of line strung through a 60ft mast.

All the line ratings and cable ratings we use on 4x4 winches comes from the marine industry testing btw.

The spring back is caused by stretch. In the sailing world we pick line based on both load and stretch characteristics. The typical synthetic winch line uses Amsteal line which has a low stretch factor but its by no means lot the lowest stretch synthetic we have in the sailing biz. Stretch also helps prevent gear breakage by absorbing shockloads vs transmitting them. Dropping off a wave while hitting 20 knots can generate big shock loads to a sailboat rig, having designed in stretch factors can help keep 100k in rigging and sails intact vs going over the side in a tangled heap.

And yes steel cable for sure has stretch properties especially the cable used on 4x4 winches.

 

[4x4x4doors]

Winch ratings (the winch, not the line) are based on which layer you are pulling from.
Three wraps around the drum is a different working rate than 1 wrap around the drum.

 

[v_man]

Another synthetic fan here , I snapped one once (I was running it over an edge.. user error) and I tied a double fisherman knot in it and resumed my pull ...

I would be hesitant to run a 10k winch on a 8,500lb. vehicle. Is that 8,500lbs. dry weight , will it be heavier all loaded down ?

What about a winch pull when your stuck in mud? The resistance and force necessary to get unstuck in mud would be greater than sand ... I'd get a 12k minimum ...

edit :sorry didn't see you got the 12.5k , good luck with your winch ...

 

[AA1PR]

& dont forget when the line is wrapped once or twice the pulling power is affected it decreases with more wraps around the drum

I say synthetic, get a metal sliver in your hand & you'll see

 

[SDDiver5]

& dont forget when the line is wrapped once or twice the pulling power is affected it decreases with more wraps around the drum

I say synthetic, get a metal sliver in your hand & you'll see

THIS> Still have one on my right middle finger. Had it for about 7 years now. Got the majority of it out but apparently I left a spec in there.

 

[classic72]

THIS> Still have one on my right middle finger. Had it for about 7 years now. Got the majority of it out but apparently I left a spec in there.

Were you guys using high quality, durable and thick leather gloves at all times?

 

[Umtaneum]

I broke a 7/8" cable on a 30,000lb dozer winch one time, when logging. This was an old TD-14A International dozer, a forestry model with armor all over it. Thank God for the armor, that cable snapped right back at the cab and put a huge dent in the 1/8" perforated steel cab cover. It would have cut me in half, no exaggeration.

That said, I also watched a 1/2" synthetic genoa halyard break in a sailboat race, on a J-165. It sounded like a gunshot across the water, and the lower half of it hit the deck mighty hard. I think if the foredeck crew was in the way the effect would have been similar to being hit with a half inch steel cable.

 

[I Leak Oil]

Were you guys using high quality, durable and thick leather gloves at all times?

Not sure about their answer to that but gloves are a necessity for sure but are no guarantee.