For sure... I always invest good money in quality multi-layered gloves because they are not a "unitasker"!
When a winch line breaks...
- Thread starter classic72
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For sure... I always invest good money in quality multi-layered gloves because they are not a "unitasker"!
AFBronco235
Crew Chief
Winching in and of itself is an inherently dangerous activity so to say either steel or synthetic is actually safer is generally a moot point in my opinion.
Here's how it breaks down.
Steel
Pros: strong, resistant to rubbing wear, minimal maintenance and care required, cheap, readily available
Cons: Heavy, rust, difficult to repair and replace, birdnesting on the drum if tension isn't maintained, requires leather gloves to handle safely
Synthetic: strong, light, flexible, easy to repair/knot and replace, does not rust
Cons: Easily cut on rocks, expensive, harder to find than steel, UV damage, picks up damaging dirt and debris easily, requires care to avoid snags
Both have their good and bad points. I do feel steel line is more forgiving for the beginner but you still can't be an idiot with either one.
Here's how it breaks down.
Steel
Pros: strong, resistant to rubbing wear, minimal maintenance and care required, cheap, readily available
Cons: Heavy, rust, difficult to repair and replace, birdnesting on the drum if tension isn't maintained, requires leather gloves to handle safely
Synthetic: strong, light, flexible, easy to repair/knot and replace, does not rust
Cons: Easily cut on rocks, expensive, harder to find than steel, UV damage, picks up damaging dirt and debris easily, requires care to avoid snags
Both have their good and bad points. I do feel steel line is more forgiving for the beginner but you still can't be an idiot with either one.
rayra
Expedition Leader
Forget all that bull**** about stretch and spring. It's about mass x velocity. Synthetic weighs about 1/5th the weight of equivalent strength steel cable. When it snaps or whips the stored energy will be similarly less.
Couple that with the precaution of placing a weight atop the tensioned cable around the midpoint, and the hazards of a backlash are greatly reduced.
Those two physics issues are far more important than the fear-mongering about 'stored energy'.
Couple that with the precaution of placing a weight atop the tensioned cable around the midpoint, and the hazards of a backlash are greatly reduced.
Those two physics issues are far more important than the fear-mongering about 'stored energy'.
rayra
Expedition Leader
This anecdote is meaningless without more info about where along the length the cable snapped and how long was the run? Physics, moment levers, that **** matters.
AFBronco235
Crew Chief
I agree with this to a point. There are some myths I'd like to point out as false from a physics standpoint.
A snapped cable will NOT cut you in half. Somebody already mentioned mass and velocity, though he got the equation wrong. Its E = Mass x Acceleration. The spring force of the cable = the breaking strength of the cable (assuming its undamaged). The Acceleration = the change in velocity over time, derived by 0 to the final velocity, which is equal to change in distance over time where the distance is the amount it stretched (usually about an inch for our purposes) and time being derived from the spring force (k). In short, there's not enough distance, or change in time, to result in much energy. Also take into account the resistance to movement of the mass of the cable. That takes away a lot of energy in itself, which is why a cable can sometimes just drop. In the instance when a cable goes flying, it still won't cut you in half. Assuming it doesn't hit your face, bruising and broken bones are your more likely injuries. In fact, steel is more resistant to movement or change in shape because it is 5 times heavier than synthetic. In fact, synthetic actually moves almost 5 or 6 times faster when it snaps, but because of its more flexible nature, it usually just springs back to the two ends in a tight bundle without hitting much of anything. However, the stored energy is the same for both materials. Where that energy goes when its released in a snap is very different though. But with the lighter mass, the synthetic will impart less energy when it hits something.
Now in the case of the tackle failing, as noted in the OP's scenario, then its a whole different ball game. Then the weight at the end of a either steel cable, or synthetic rope, becomes a slingshot with a weight that will plow through anything in its path.
Hmm... I'll have to call up my old physics professor and hand him this as a project for his current students and see what they get.
"With X amount of feet of cable/synthetic out, what resultant damage will occur to a person standing next to said cable when it snaps at given cables rated breaking strength?" That would keep them busy for a day or 3.
Lucky j
Explorer
Ok, my turn. Your steel cable will not rust if care for just once every couple of years, even up-north in the rust belt, it is call lube. Silicone base is good, liquid molly is great. Bird nesting is not that bad after a couple of use and can be deal with w/onto much problems. Air crfat grade steel cable is easy to find and can be fixed in the feild with a couple of shaclkes, and yes, of corse you should be wearing glove, your are working with potential bodily traumatique manipulation. Pinching can also happend with synthetic cable!
Synthetic can not always be fixed with a knots, no matter what type. Is the line break because it is worn out, it will also break with a knot. Also, on two different occasion, the synthetic line broke in a matter were it was caught at the bottom of the drum. The only way to get to it, was to cut the entire line. How can you fixe that with a knot? Oh yes, you should wear glove of any winching opperation, was'nt that mentioned some where in a guide called safe winching technics?
Yes, synthetic line are lighter. And are fun to deal with, but they are fragile compare to steel. Are they safer, I steel do not know, they both were out.
On a sail boat, Ibwould also prefer using a synthetic line. I take a ferry here to go home every week. The ferry make dock every 20 minutes, 24/7, 365 days a year, they transport up to 10 full tractor trailer on a trio plus cars, and they still use regular yellon nylons.
Did I mentionned that my winch was put on my jeep in 1999, let me see, that is 16 years in the provinvce of quebec (salt in winter), and it is on it's original steel cable, and it was used a lot and it still is! How many can say that about synthetic lines?
With all that said, I'm not saying no the synth, but I can not get my self to pay for one, or 5 over 15 years. (200+ x 5=1000$, maybe it is time to invest 75$ for an aircraft grade steel wire as a gift to me). Hummf
Lucky j
Explorer
Yep, and the weight on the steel line also apply, as with the synthetic!
If the ancor point gives, like mentionend up here by beaver, it is not just the cable that is coming, it is the hook or whatever is still attached to the cable. Synthetic or steel.
This brings out a good point. I like my Synth line, but I kept the original line just in case. The Synthetic probably would not be a good bet to use in the snow/rust belt, as I imagine it could end up a frozen mess when you need it.
I'll keep my high end synthetic, but would not toss out the steel either.
There is a huge difference in various synthetic winch line types, so you cannot necessarily put them all into the same category. See a comparison on masterpull's web site (a forum sponsor I believe, ask for a 10% discount). -- http://www.masterpull.com/choose-the-correct-size-winch-line/
The other point worth mentioning with either type of line, is of course safety.
One worthwhile tidbit to consider is keeping as little line on the spool as possible. For that reason I went from 120 to 100 to 80' and use a separate extension if needed. I would un spool as much as possible and leave the last row on the drum. If you only ever use the first 20' of your line, your pulling capacity is seriously diminished and that's what will where out. If that's the case, just use a 50' line.
I like this video discussing advantages / disadvantages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnM-hT3vr-c
This video, while clearly designed to sell the positives on Synthetic line, also shows an interesting video where they break 3/8 steel and Dyneema Synthetic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDJ3QjvRZT0
Here is a video of idiots (in my opinion) trying to winch a jeep off a rock. Aside from not having any safety blanket on the line, and the kids and people all over the place it clearly shows what happens when what appears to be a Synthetic line breaks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BpRaVyq3FQ
Breaking another Synthetic line pulling a stump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_2wLAoctTc
Great view of the energy being absorbed by the line when it breaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHASUPKH9YE
This is what happens when a steel cable snaps..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1NnL83UpuQ
And this is neat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX8A4JzIUrI
I took this one out of the vid's as I had seen it when I was doing research. To me, it doesn't look like the cable snaps, but instead that they were practicing unsafe recovery by using a steel line as a snatch strap and just putting the hook end over the pulling vehicles trailer ball. It appears the hook slipped off the ball, but the line itself didn't break. Also there were no dampers which again was stupid and would make me believe they have no understanding of what safe recovery is.
Agreed that I can see benefits to both. I don't think synth is the answer that will be the undoing of steel's place in the winching world.
Kmrtnsn
Explorer
Synthetic winch line is UV stable. Fishing boats winch in synthetic line every day, in the most UV intense seas around the globe, without issue. Synthetic winch line is also easy to find online, or if you live near any port of modest size. Easy to fray or snag? Hardly. Try cutting it. If you buy it online, it is cheaper to ship than steel, another benefit of the weight savings. Times have changed. Using a steel winch line is like climbing on manila rope.
Kmrtnsn
Explorer
AFBronco235
Crew Chief
I was pointing out that both steel and synthetic have their good and bad points. Its just a matter of personal choice. BTW, I never said anything about snagging or fraying. Only that if its dragged across a rock during a winch, it tends to break. Which many have agree, it does. As for the UV thing, not all lines are made the same. The cheaper lines are not as UV resistant. And I'd think relatively few off-roaders live near fishing ports. Yes, synthetic is cheaper to ship than steel, but you usually can pick up aircraft grade steel line at your local hardware store so your shipping argument is pointless. Oh, and manila rope is much easier to climb than synthetic rope of the same size. Better grip.
Please think about your arguments before you make them.