When to trade up? The economics of "new" vs "old"

[jmnielsen]

I'm very curious about peoples opinions on the economics of driving "old" vs "new".

A brief explanation of my scenario:
- Currently drive 2013 F150 ecoboost. Just hit 100k miles, recently had ball joints and control arms done, had one turbo replaced, have had exhaust manifolds replaced a couple times, rear leaf springs are shot and need replaced. Truck is still valued at around $22k. Has some odd rattles/noises that I can't pinpoint, but don't seem to be serious. Always on top of maintenance, but even that wont' necessarily stop a large failure like the timing chain.

- Previously drove 2005 F150, very well maintained and had 120k miles. Driving down the road and a spark plug cracked and fell into the cylinder, needed engine replaced. Truck went from being in great shape and worth around $12k to $1500.

I've always been taught to stay on top of maintenance keep what you buy for as long as you can, which was my intent with the 2005 until the value dropped 10k instantaneously and left me needing a new vehicle. I'm now a little jaded on that idea. I'm also incredibly put off by the pricing on new trucks. I've been looking at 3/4 ton trucks, as I have been disappointed in the payload of the F150 and we plan to get a travel trailer next year. I know the ecoboost can tow fine, I did 5500 miles last fall pulling a 30ft trailer thru WY, MT, ID, and UT but if I upgrade I want to "future proof" my purchase.

So, how long do you pump money into a decade old vehicle? When do you decide to "get out while you can", aka before major repairs start to show up? Obviously one would need a crystal ball to know when the right time to ditch the old vehicle for a new one is, but I'm curious about others though processes when it comes to things like this.

Bonus question - is a "commuter car" really worth it to save wear and tear on big trucks? Purchasing a second vehicle is expensive and the cost of that purchase could go towards a lot of fuel and repairs.

 

[ITTOG]

I like to keep my vehicles until they die or Ican help a family member with a need. So in your scenario, I would keep the 2013 Until repair costs are higher than The value of the truck. I would have ditched the 05, just like you did.

 

[Todd780]

Bonus question - is a "commuter car" really worth it to save wear and tear on big trucks? Purchasing a second vehicle is expensive and the cost of that purchase could go towards a lot of fuel and repairs.

I've thought a lot about this to keep wear / tear and mileage down on the truck. But decided the extra insurance, maintenance etc wasn't worth it.

As far as your other question, I think that up to the individual.

You know what they say about opinions...

 

[4000lbsOfGoat]

If you are not intending to significantly modify the vehicle then leasing can be a great option. Your vehicle will always be under warranty and you'll never spend a dime on maintenance or repairs. Expenses (lease payment) are completely predictable.

 

[Mike McMullen]

I am a fan of purchasing used trucks, I target 3 or 4 year old trucks that have about 12 to15k miles per year. These are usually lease trucks and mostly well maintained. I love my current 2012 purchased in 2016 with 65,000 on it. it now has 130,000 and is running fine. I swapped out the original leaf springs for progressive and I love the ride.

 

[NatersXJ6]

Interesting questions:

My point of view has changed as my age and income have increased.

Early on, I was the guy buying your blown engine F150 for $1500 and someone else’s rollover for $500 and fixing one out of 2 with my own time as equity.

Eventually, I was buying other deeply discounted rigs. I.E. my 2005 Lemon-Law buyback F250.

Now I buy new or nearly new and run long. I still do 90+% of my own repairs and maintenance. Nobody, no matter how well-paid, cares about your stuff as much as you do.

I target 225-250k miles on a vehicle and sell them at auction bottom dollar when I’m done. I tend to get bored with them a lot closer to 180k, but some run all the way out. This usually takes 8-10 years. I used to always buy a “new” car for my wife and drive the old one, but I’ve found that doesn’t always work, as she tends to like very different types of cars than I do, so we just roll hers over every 8-10 Years too.

I’m a little surprised by the amount of work you said you’ve had to do to your F150 in 9 years and 100k miles. Was this all at your own decision, or advised by a mechanic, or are you a particularly hard user of the truck? I’ve driven many F-Series trucks well into the 250-300k mile range with little more than oil changes, tires, and brakes… and these were in construction and mining use as work trucks.

 

[Regcabguy]

I am a fan of purchasing used trucks, I target 3 or 4 year old trucks that have about 12 to15k miles per year. These are usually lease trucks and mostly well maintained. I love my current 2012 purchased in 2016 with 65,000 on it. it now has 130,000 and is running fine. I swapped out the original leaf springs for progressive and I love the ride.

Enterprise had some great buys when Xi's Plague came about.

 

[Regcabguy]

If you are not intending to significantly modify the vehicle then leasing can be a great option. Your vehicle will always be under warranty and you'll never spend a dime on maintenance or repairs. Expenses (lease payment) are completely predictable.

You just have to get a lease with high mileage allowances. Turning it in can be a nail biting experience too. Max insurance is mandatory also.

 

[billiebob]

Two ideas come into play.

My wife, zero mechanical aptitude drives an Asian car since her first, the 1987 Camry..... we trade up every 5 years. It gets zero mods and she follows the Manual for maintenance religiously all being done at the dealer she bought it from...... I don't think you or I fit that profile.

Me, in 50 years I have never bought a new vehicle. Warranties are meaningless to me. Service at a Dealership never. But I keep driving vehicles at least 15 years old and get all my service from the local shop/mechanic I trust. I have never been stranded..... altho I have limped in for a new automatic transmission twice..... once, a thousand miles from home cost $3500.00. I now religiously buy vehicles with a clutch... so I'm a used car buyer forever.

Honestly I spend $1K to $2K a year on ALL the maintenance including shocks, oil changes and tires. My wife trading in her new car every 5 years sees her car depreciate from $35K to $15K.... plus the cost of dealership maintenance.

So your question is more do I want reliability without thought, like my wife and I concerning her safety..... or are you willing to drive an older car and save LOTS of $$$$ if you are willing to pay attention.

All that said, today I see far too many guys with NEW cars in the shop for weeks and the dealerships have not got a clue. Me, my next new to me vehicle will likely have a carburetor. I did that 20 years ago buying a 15 year old YJ so I could get reliable winter starts at 40 below. An EFI unless it is plugged in does not understand 40 below. This was when snowmobiles introduced EFI...... We would go to the cabin for the weekend. Those with carbs.... choke, prime, pull the starter cord. Starts everytime even at 60 below zero. Those with EFI.... pull out a genset, plug in the block heater for an hour,..... and pray the battery would not die. Those of us with old tech were home before the guys with modern tech got started. Every year I see the "imrovements" to the internal combustion engine hurting reliability. Diesels are even worse.

I bought my '87 YJ in 2000 for $4500.... sold it in 2010 for $3500.... spent a grand a year..... drove it 200K miles with several commutes, Edmonton to Yellowknife of 1900 miles with zero issues. My next, a 2005 Rubicon I bought in 2010 and drove it 200K miles until it met a BMW head on in 2020.... zero issues it was a high miler with 250K miles when I parked it. I bought a 2006 Rubicon in 2020, I put on 24K miles a year.... zero issues beyond maintenance and wear items. I swear by old technologies.

PS, I m not a mechanic, I value the semi annual oil changes at a great shop by a great mechanic. They do not just change the oil, they check the brakes, steering, driveline, lighting, codes and I know my vehicle is good and reliable for 6 months, to the next "oil change"..... I believe in proactive maintenance, not reactive repairs. No ego here, I just like to go overlanding without needing a crew of buddies to support my explorations.

 

[jaxyaks]

I believe if I had those kinds of issues at relatively low miles the first thing I would do is stop buying Fords.

 

[skrypj]

Just FYI, Ford just recently updated the exhaust manifolds for the 2011-2016 3.5L. They are now stainless steel and take advantage of the additional stud holes thats are already in the heads. The new one is on the right:

The manifolds dont seem to warp, they sag. The manifolds have to support the weight of the turbo and probably the downpipe to some extent and when they get super hot they sag and the flange pulls away from the head at that rear most runner where there was no stud.

The new manifold puts a stud there but the stailess steel is also more resistant to the heat.

I am at 105k on my 2014 and the manifolds are the only issue I have had so far. The first time I warped them I was towing my travel trailer on a 95F day in Utah into a 25+ mph headwind. I replaced them with the CRP full bore manifolds and then I warped one of them pulling into another strong headwind on another hot day in Wyoming. Both times I was running a tune on my truck.

 

[jmnielsen]

Interesting questions:

My point of view has changed as my age and income have increased.

Early on, I was the guy buying your blown engine F150 for $1500 and someone else’s rollover for $500 and fixing one out of 2 with my own time as equity.

Eventually, I was buying other deeply discounted rigs. I.E. my 2005 Lemon-Law buyback F250.

Now I buy new or nearly new and run long. I still do 90+% of my own repairs and maintenance. Nobody, no matter how well-paid, cares about your stuff as much as you do.

I target 225-250k miles on a vehicle and sell them at auction bottom dollar when I’m done. I tend to get bored with them a lot closer to 180k, but some run all the way out. This usually takes 8-10 years. I used to always buy a “new” car for my wife and drive the old one, but I’ve found that doesn’t always work, as she tends to like very different types of cars than I do, so we just roll hers over every 8-10 Years too.

I’m a little surprised by the amount of work you said you’ve had to do to your F150 in 9 years and 100k miles. Was this all at your own decision, or advised by a mechanic, or are you a particularly hard user of the truck? I’ve driven many F-Series trucks well into the 250-300k mile range with little more than oil changes, tires, and brakes… and these were in construction and mining use as work trucks.

I’m not a hard user. I tow on occasion, an easy on the throttle, but do commute 35ish miles a day, part city part highway.

I’ve owned the truck for 5 years and 70k miles. The manifolds were my request, buts it’s obvious when those start leaking. Ball joints were advised by mechanic as was the turbo. I know the ball joints needed it but not sure about the turbo and when I asked to look at it they didn’t have it so who knows.

I would like to put 150k or so on it before getting something else. My goal is to buy new/near new and ride it for 10 years or so. I don’t like switching a bunch, I like to own things and make them mine.


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[jmnielsen]

I believe if I had those kinds of issues at relatively low miles the first thing I would do is stop buying Fords.

Yeah I plan on trying something else next time I buy something. It’s a shame because I really want that 7.3 with the 10spd but oh well. Probably a power wagon in my future in a couple years.


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[jmnielsen]

Just FYI, Ford just recently updated the exhaust manifolds for the 2011-2016 3.5L. They are now stainless steel and take advantage of the additional stud holes thats are already in the heads. The new one is on the right:

The manifolds dont seem to warp, they sag. The manifolds have to support the weight of the turbo and probably the downpipe to some extent and when they get super hot they sag and the flange pulls away from the head at that rear most runner where there was no stud.

The new manifold puts a stud there but the stailess steel is also more resistant to the heat.

I am at 105k on my 2014 and the manifolds are the only issue I have had so far. The first time I warped them I was towing my travel trailer on a 95F day in Utah into a 25+ mph headwind. I replaced them with the CRP full bore manifolds and then I warped one of them pulling into another strong headwind on another hot day in Wyoming. Both times I was running a tune on my truck.

Interesting. Wish that was out when I had them replaced last time. I can’t put mine failing in any particular incident, other than sometimes having to get on the pedal when going from a side road to a highway in traffic.


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[Over The Silent Planet]

Just FYI, Ford just recently updated the exhaust manifolds for the 2011-2016 3.5L. They are now stainless steel and take advantage of the additional stud holes thats are already in the heads. The new one is on the right:

The manifolds dont seem to warp, they sag. The manifolds have to support the weight of the turbo and probably the downpipe to some extent and when they get super hot they sag and the flange pulls away from the head at that rear most runner where there was no stud.

The new manifold puts a stud there but the stailess steel is also more resistant to the heat.

I am at 105k on my 2014 and the manifolds are the only issue I have had so far. The first time I warped them I was towing my travel trailer on a 95F day in Utah into a 25+ mph headwind. I replaced them with the CRP full bore manifolds and then I warped one of them pulling into another strong headwind on another hot day in Wyoming. Both times I was running a tune on my truck.

My buddies who drive EB F150s are frustrated by that. It is a design flaw. One of my hunting buddies has snapped a few manifold bolts over the years. Just from mild off roading getting to his lease. All the weight of those turbos hanging on the manifolds. The tell-tale ticking of an exhaust leak on one side or the other (or both) or the engine. He’s out of warranty now with 75k miles and is wondering if he should trade it in.

They fixed it with the redesign, but then you’re likely to have the cam phaser issue or problems with the 10 speed.