Which Warn Winch?

[luk4mud]

Interesting thread. The rule of thumb I always heard in the Jeep world is that you should get a winch that has 2X capacity to the weight of your vehicle. I have a 12k winch and was a little concerned it might me small on a 6k+ vehicle when fully loaded. That is because the weight of the vehicle pulled up a steep incline is effectively more than the weight of the vehicle.

My thought with my new (to me) FJ80 is that I could "make do" with a 12k winch and a snatchblock in about any situation.

 

[spressomon]

M8000 will do fine for Brian's application, not sure about yours though Redline. A winch is like any other tool, it's the operator that makes the difference. Lots of old timers used small winches to do big jobs using creativity .Same goes for syn rope vs wire rope. :coffeedrink: Most of the time, laziness tend to overcome the operator's desire to spool more cable out and use a pulley block to decrease the load on the winch and to decrease the amp draw on the electrical system.

At the end, your wallet will end up dictating your decision I guess!

Ahhhhh...the voice of reason....again . However, for me, I'd buy the winch that had the most potential in a given situation; and the largest/best for the space and budget. Getting stuck out in the middle of nowhere sucks. If you always travel in a group the risk goes down significantly. But when I'm solo, especially with the KK, I prefer the peace of mind of having a higher rated winch. Sort of an insurance policy I guess...

 

[Redline]

The guideline I have heard the most is 1.5 - 2x the vehicle weight. Obviously I'm light for 2x, and even for 1.5x now that the rig is outfitted and heavy. For the record, the 4Runner was only 4,500-lbs wen new, bone-stock with no cargo or passenger. In gained 1,000-lbs, then add some people/cargo...

In general more winch and a reserve buffer is better. But at some point it becomes very impractical to have 2x or even 1.5x the vehicle’s gross weight, or gross vehicle weight rating. Many full-sized pickups have a GVWR of 10,000-lbs or more, and obtaining and mounting a 'regular' recovery winch with a 20k rating seems impractical if not impossible. So as with any guideline, there is some wiggle room.

In the case of your 12k winch, I think you have plenty :smiley_drive:

Interesting thread. The rule of thumb I always heard in the Jeep world is that you should get a winch that has 2X capacity to the weight of your vehicle. I have a 12k winch and was a little concerned it might me small on a 6k+ vehicle when fully loaded. That is because the weight of the vehicle pulled up a steep incline is effectively more than the weight of the vehicle.

My thought with my new (to me) FJ80 is that I could "make do" with a 12k winch and a snatchblock in about any situation.

 

[luk4mud]

Redline, you're absolutely right, there comes a point where the cost and space to maintain that ration no longer works.

I probably would have just transferred my Supewinch 9.o over from the Jeep, but I found a 12k Warn on CL for $325 and couldn't pass it up. It fits perfectly on the ARB bumper.

 

[Redline]

Spares

Well I often go with a group, but not always, and I certainly want/need to be prepared to take care of myself and not rely on others. On that note, I need to find a place to mount & carry my Pull Pal, without an anchor, a winch is useless.

Ramsey

I was really making it easy on myself by only considering the Warn 9.5xp should I decide to upgrade from the M8000. Then last night I reread the OJ winch test and how well the Patriot 9500UT performed, pulling up to 12,000-lbs!

M8000 x2

I have always thought it would be wise to carry a spare winch controller, as the winch is useless without it. If it fails or get lost... And knowing the traditional winch solenoids are prone to failure carrying spares also seems like a good idea. I'm not sure which controller I need but my net searches last night have me thinking a spare controller is about $80.00. Four spare solenoids were something like $70.00.

If these prices are about right, it got me thinking how I could indeed buy another M8000 for $540.00, delivered. Have a spare controller and complete, ready to bolt-in solenoid pack, and for the extra $390.00 I would have a spare winch! Sound like a good idea to me. I can’t believe I’m the only one who has considered having a spare winch, and we know there are rigs out there outfitted with two winches. Weight is always a concern but systems redundancy is the ultimate in preparedness.

Having a spare M8000 then got me thinking about putting it onto a portable mounting plate. I have always seen the utility of having a rear-mounted winch, there are just few bumpers/practical applications for them. I would like to be able to use a rear/multi-mount winch on both the 4Runner and my F350 (the F350 is winches, but has a hitch receiver in both the rear and front bumpers).

Ahhhhh...the voice of reason....again . However, for me, I'd buy the winch that had the most potential in a given situation; and the largest/best for the space and budget. Getting stuck out in the middle of nowhere sucks. If you always travel in a group the risk goes down significantly. But when I'm solo, especially with the KK, I prefer the peace of mind of having a higher rated winch. Sort of an insurance policy I guess...

 

[Redline]

OJ Test/Length of Rope

Another note of interest in the OJ winch test was the failure of the Warn Endurance 12k. First the case on a ‘non-Warn mount’, then the drum crushing with synthetic line. Warn's fine print says synthetic line is not recommended for winches above 9.5k... Though it would be nice to have lots more winch capacity as a buffer, there may be some argument to running the M8000 and not crushing the drum with synthetic line or braking the case ☺ ☺

Line Length

I have always thought I wanted lots of line on my winch drum. Nevada lacks lots of anchor points and if you can't reach the anchor you’re out of luck. But when/if I replace my winch rope I am considering dropping down from 100-ft and maybe going with 80-ft. Obviously I have to pull less rope to get close to the bottom layers, and it cost less too. But certainly I will need a winch line extension (or two) which cost a few bucks.

What is a good length for a winch line extension? I was thing 75-100 ft. 50 seem too short.

 

[SimonInAustralia]

Having a spare M8000 then got me thinking about putting it onto a portable mounting plate. I have always seen the utility of having a rear-mounted winch, there are just few bumpers/practical applications for them. I would like to be able to use a rear/multi-mount winch on both the 4Runner and my F350 (the F350 is winches, but has a hitch receiver in both the rear and front bumpers).

http://www.warn.com/truck/mounting-systems/multi_mount.shtml

 

[Redline]

+15%

As I pointed out, 1.5 - 2x seems to be a common recommendation, and I agree it's a good rough guideline if attainable. Maybe it is more reasonable for lighter rigs?

While doing some research on this subject last night I looked inside Jim Allen's 4-Wheeler's Bible. In my 2002 version of the book, on page 181, Mr. Allen suggests the "minimum capacity" should be your "vehicle's gross vehicle weight (not curb weight)" plus about 15%. The example given is a pickup with a 8,600-lb gross vehicle weight. Adding 15% equals 9,890 - round up to 10k.

The plus-15% suggested minimum may be a more realistic number, as a pickup with a 10k GVWR would be 11,500, rounded up to 12k, which seems very reasonable.

I will disagree with his use of the term gross vehicle weight (GVW) which truly is the curb/wet weight of a vehicle. I believe he should have said the vehicle's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). GVWR is something different than "gross weight" or GVW and can be easily located on a vehicle's data plate.

For the record, I respect and have enjoyed Mr. Allen's published work for several years.

The guideline I have heard the most is 1.5 - 2x the vehicle weight. Obviously I'm light for 2x, and even for 1.5x now that the rig is outfitted and heavy. For the record, the 4Runner was only 4,500-lbs wen new, bone-stock with no cargo or passenger. In gained 1,000-lbs, then add some people/cargo...

In general more winch and a reserve buffer is better. But at some point it becomes very impractical to have 2x or even 1.5x the vehicle's gross weight, or gross vehicle weight rating. Many full-sized pickups have a GVWR of 10,000-lbs or more, and obtaining and mounting a 'regular' recovery winch with a 20k rating seems impractical if not impossible. So as with any guideline, there is some wiggle room.

In the case of your 12k winch, I think you have plenty :smiley_drive:

 

[cruiseroutfit]

While 1.5x or 2x GVW is a easy starting point, I feel it is more intuitive to look at the actual load resistances likely to be encountered. If miring your rig up to the fenders isn't remotely probably, then why plan for it? I'm all for 'overkill engineering' and 'better safe than sorry' but we don't all need an Warn 16.5ti on our rigs when a 8k or 9k or 10k, etc would do the job.

I listed these for a 5000lb rig but you can do the math for your setup given the types of winch recoveries you would be likely to encounter. My final recommendation was to run the biggest winch you can cleanly mount and your suspension will support.

Lets assume your in your 5000lb (loaded) vehicle.

Surface Resistance:
1/10 LW (500lbs) to push a free wheeling rig on a hard, level surface
1/3 LW (1700lbs) to push a free wheeling rig on soft surface, grass or gravel
(add a broken rig to either of these situation and they can easily multiply the resistance and therefor the needed winch).

Damage resistance:
2/3 LW (3400lbs) to move a vehicle if the wheels cannot rotate (bound up axles, brakes, etc.)

Lets look at more common winch needs:

Stuck in mud:
Wheel Depth Mire (up to wheel hubs) = Resistance is the LW (5000 lbs)
Fender Depth Mire (top of wheels) = Resistance is 2x LW (10000 lbs)
Cab Depth Mire (over the fenders) = Resistance is 3x LW (15000 lbs)

And the above figures can increase (or decrease) based on the slope your working with:

Working with slopes:

Uphill Winch Pull (pulling up slope)
15 degrees - add 25% LW (add 1250 lbs)
30 degrees - add 50% LW (add 2500 lbs)
45 degrees - add 75% LW (add 3750 lbs)

Downhill Winch Pull (pulling down slope)
15 degrees - subtract 25% LW (minus 1250 lbs)
30 degrees - subtract 50% LW (minus 2500 lbs)
45 degrees - subtract 75% LW (minus 3750 lbs)

So lets say your 5000lb (LW) vehicle is stuck up to the top of its wheels and getting deeper as you continue to try and work it free. The nearest winch anchor is just over a 30* angle a above you. Your calculated load could easily exceed 12,500lbs. Far more than a 5k winch can even do single snatch blocked. Now remember that a winch is only capable of their rated capacity on their first layer of wrap, that which each additional layer they lose capacity. So unless you want to be re-rigging constantly to keep your winch in its optimal range (this goes for needing a snatchblock too), it makes sense to select a winch that will be capable of handling these loads. Sure you could use a complicated system of multiple snatchblocks. But the added cost of blocks and extension straps in conjunction with the limited range you would end up with (a 125' cable is good for lets figure 100' on a single line pull, yet only 50' with a snatch, start adding additional blocks and you'll end up with just a vehicles length of range each rigging). There will always be compromises, due to size, weight and mounting you can't fit the biggest winch on every rig, but I would do my best to fit the biggest I can.