Who ordered a New Defender ?

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DieselRanger

Well-known member
A good example of the overuse of technology. That info is mostly useless and should be readily apparent to the driver who is paying attention to the trail. "Wade Sensing"? Really? Shouldn't you walk the trail/river BEFORE your attempt? Well yes! Who is the customer? The useless idiot who buys a Luxury Defender and brags about it to their friends as they pull into the mall.
So you are so perceptive that you can tell the difference between a 30 degree side slope and a 35 degree side slope and how that will affect your vehicle with 200lbs on the roof? This display is there for the same reason people buy stick-on dash-mounted inclinometers and compasses.

And yes, you probe the water feature before you drive into it, but then you want to know that you're still on the path through it you have decided to drive. Since little old you doesn't weigh 5,000 lbs and have a footprint that covers 60+ square feet, you can expect the bottom to shift under the weight of the vehicle, especially if the water is moving. So yeah, it's good to see what the depth is.

The Disco has this display already. It's quite useful, especially the wheel, suspension, and diff display - it's good to see where your wheels are pointing, especially with a variable ratio electronic steering system, which most vehicles made today do have. It's good to see suspension position, especially if you're on rocky terrain and can see the obstacles in front of you with the cameras...on some bench cut roads it's not safe or even always possible to let a passenger out of the vehicle to spot for you. It's good to see which wheels have traction (yes, it shows which ones are slipping).

Do you *need* it? Nope, people were "overlanding" in the 1920's on 120-inch wheelbase rear-drive cars with glorified 26-inch bicycle tires and leaf springs and three gears with 55 horsepower and no differential too. But then your right seater was your mechanic, who you had to take along on any drive over about 20 minutes long. Technology does make things a lot easier, and it could be argued, safer as well.

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Red90

Adventurer
You can look out the window to see how deep you are. A sensor is not telling you any more. If they had ultrasound telling you how deep it was in front of you, that would be useful.
 

jmodz

Active member
I think this argument is moot. Practically every new off-road vehicle for the last couple of years comes with that info in their electronics, maybe with the exception of the wade sensing. My F-150 showed how much power was being sent to each wheel, how much the pitch and incline where, tire pressures, etc... All it seems LR did was add a couple more features to the usual suite. It’s all a little gimmicky until you find yourself using it on the trail, like I found myself doing a number of times. Given the choice between precise data and approximations with my eye or a stick, why not take the precise data?
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
My LR4 has diff lock display and truthfully I never look at it while negotiating a trail or wheelin. Why would I? You should also have already selected your 'Terrain Response' mode. Your eyes should be on selecting the best path, not watching your technology info. If the trail gets challenging you shouldn't even be looking at your info display, period.

You should have already walked the trail, made the decision that the side slope is too great for your COG (realistically you don't know your COG and when you are going to exceed your roll over point as roads are dynamic) and planned around the obstacle. I had a bubble gauge in my Scout. Rarely looked at it other than confirming what I already knew. Did the gauge help me make a decision? No, not at all. Guess what was more important. Where the vehicle track was relative to the trail which requires eyes ON the trail and maybe a spotter.

As for wading, walk the river. Seen several outcomes of people who didn't walk the river down in the gulches along the Platte. One Toyota Forerunner decided to take a different path across the river and dropped his front end into a hole. Hours of work and blowing out cylinders later ........... A wading depth gauge would have not changed the outcome as it would have been too late. Another was a Jeep that floated downstream, resting up against a large boulder. Guess what, tires are flotation devices. Again, poor judgement that any 'wading depth' info would not have prevented. Actual safe wading depth is beyond simple on-board sensors. Those sensors are really rear view mirrors.

Victory_Overland noted that LR's info is worthless and it would be much more useful if IIDTool like information was available. I would go one step further and add detailed weather, alerts, etc. Case in point was the couple who forded a river in the morning and when returning the river was much higher due to precip and snow melt. Swept away and the passenger lost her life. LR should be partnering with suppliers of ham radio systems to define interfaces that support standards and rely information. Why? Because I can guarantee you that in the mountains your cell phone or any navigation system reliant on cell technology will be dead on the trail.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
A good example of how LR is adding useless info center urban functionality ( really duplicates of your cell phone ) that is increasingly dependent on cell service while forgoing actual useful features that work in all areas.

NOAA weatherband that was standard prior to LR3's.

NOAA WEATHER RADIO ALL HAZARDS

Which by the way can't be streamed when you don't have cell service!
 
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blackangie

Well-known member
My LR4 has diff lock display and truthfully I never look at it while negotiating a trail or wheelin. Why would I? You should also have already selected your 'Terrain Response' mode. Your eyes should be on selecting the best path, not watching your technology info. If the trail gets challenging you shouldn't even be looking at your info display, period.

You should have already walked the trail, made the decision that the side slope is too great for your COG (realistically you don't know your COG and when you are going to exceed your roll over point as roads are dynamic) and planned around the obstacle. I had a bubble gauge in my Scout. Rarely looked at it other than confirming what I already knew. Did the gauge help me make a decision? No, not at all. Guess what was more important. Where the vehicle track was relative to the trail which requires eyes ON the trail and maybe a spotter.

As for wading, walk the river. Seen several outcomes of people who didn't walk the river down in the gulches along the Platte. One Toyota Forerunner decided to take a different path across the river and dropped his front end into a hole. Hours of work and blowing out cylinders later ........... A wading depth gauge would have not changed the outcome as it would have been too late. Another was a Jeep that floated downstream, resting up against a large boulder. Guess what, tires are flotation devices. Again, poor judgement that any 'wading depth' info would not have prevented. Actual safe wading depth is beyond simple on-board sensors. Those sensors are really rear view mirrors.

Victory_Overland noted that LR's info is worthless and it would be much more useful if IIDTool like information was available. I would go one step further and add detailed weather, alerts, etc. Case in point was the couple who forded a river in the morning and when returning the river was much higher due to precip and snow melt. Swept away and the passenger lost her life. LR should be partnering with suppliers of ham radio systems to define interfaces that support standards and rely information. Why? Because I can guarantee you that in the mountains your cell phone or any navigation system reliant on cell technology will be dead on the trail.
As said before the wade sensing is not for pre river crossing, its for during, sometimes you freak out seeing water over your bonnet, however with sensors under the mirrors, it gives you an accurate depth you can then know how deep it was and how much deeper you could go, training yourself without tape measuring out the window as you go.

Also you walk all crossings do you?

You obviously don't live in AU or SA

Crossings can be 50+m across, crocs waiting.

Wade sensing is a great use of existing sensors to show useful info.

Latest LRs do have weather updates, you can pin that to main screen.
New defender has offroad nav with breadcrumbs I believe , dont need cell reception.

I bet you all the stuff in your LR4, D2 guys were whining about when it was released.

Maybe hold off judging until you have driven it and experienced the benifits of latest gen tech like many of us here have owning new JLR vehicles.




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mpinco

Expedition Leader
You do realize that 'wade sensing' is below the mirrors, roughly 10ft (3m) after you need to know that info. Why behind the front of the vehicle? Because the bow wave would result in much lower fording depths communicated to the driver. In addition it is simply a calculation of the distance between the bottom of the tires, the height of the critical component that LR used to determine wading depth and the detected distance to water below the mirrors. All vehicles are provided with wading depth which should allow you to visibly determine where that is on the vehicle with a tape measure. It does not measure the depth of the water in front of the vehicle so really is not useful for those crossings you have not walked.

Yes, I walk all water crossings. Ask the owners of the 4runner and Jeep who didn't walk the crossing. Would 'wading depth' have helped them? ......... No.

Do the weather updates rely on cell service? Local digital FM radio? Not analog VHF dedicated weather service broadcasting alerts for a region? The issue is 'digital' which has limited distance and primarily a urban broadcast technology useful in high density areas.

Breadcrumbs? Like paper maps?

My point is that every manufacturer has basically the same 'high-tech' urban services. Why everyone? Because the hardware technology is available from several suppliers that sell in volume. LR had an opportunity to differentiate and so far I'm not seeing significant differences than everyone else. Where are they investing? ........... bitcoin. I get that they have to compete for urban buyers but their heritage is not urban and where you should be differentiating is in the rural/no cell service operational profiles. Now that would set them apart.
 

blackangie

Well-known member
You do realize that 'wade sensing' is below the mirrors, roughly 10ft (3m) after you need to know that info. Why behind the front of the vehicle? Because the bow wave would result in much lower fording depths communicated to the driver. In addition it is simply a calculation of the distance between the bottom of the tires, the height of the critical component that LR used to determine wading depth and the detected distance to water below the mirrors. All vehicles are provided with wading depth which should allow you to visibly determine where that is on the vehicle with a tape measure. It does not measure the depth of the water in front of the vehicle so really is not useful for those crossings you have not walked.

Yes, I walk all water crossings. Ask the owners of the 4runner and Jeep who didn't walk the crossing. Would 'wading depth' have helped them? ......... No.

Do the weather updates rely on cell service? Local digital FM radio? Not analog VHF dedicated weather service broadcasting alerts for a region? The issue is 'digital' which has limited distance and primarily a urban broadcast technology useful in high density areas.

Breadcrumbs? Like paper maps?

My point is that every manufacturer has basically the same 'high-tech' urban services. Why everyone? Because the hardware technology is available from several suppliers that sell in volume. LR had an opportunity to differentiate and so far I'm not seeing significant differences than everyone else. Where are they investing? ........... bitcoin. I get that they have to compete for urban buyers but their heritage is not urban and where you should be differentiating is in the rural/no cell service operational profiles. Now that would set them apart.

Wading depth is under mirrors not bow wave, hence me pointing out this to you.

As has been pointed out now around 3 times, wade sensing is not about replacing checking river depth before you go in..so why keep bringing this up that you walk every river, so does nearly every 4x4er that knows there stuff. (Minus croc etc infested areas)

Do you walk bog holes too?..I do them with a long stick.

As for your detailed questions, head down the dealer with your questions mate, I've got enough of my own.

If your worried about aditional tech features on a screen that's already there, don't fly in a plane .

If you want a less features, a base 110 even has dial style speedos/tft eyc rather than LCD, walk through etc.

Commercial will take this even further imo, even more stripped out options.

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blackangie

Well-known member
I see we are making really good progress in answering the question of 'who ordered a new Defender?'

If you didn't, and aren't going to - why are you still here?
It seems those that dont want to or cant affort to, feel the need to convince others to join them in thier choice.

Im at the dealer right now finalizing HSE straight 6 petrol.

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jmodz

Active member
It seems those that dont want to or cant affort to, feel the need to convince others to join them in thier choice.

Im at the dealer right now finalizing HSE straight 6 petrol.

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I thought you were going with the diesel. Or did I remember wrong? Since you have the option between petrol and diesel, why did you choose the P400?
 

blackangie

Well-known member
I thought you were going with the diesel. Or did I remember wrong? Since you have the option between petrol and diesel, why did you choose the P400?
Yeah was always going for petrol, Test drove the D240 D5, was for sure enough power, but coming from an LS RRC didn't excite me enough. Plus petrols seem to have less dramas these days(not that LR have probs like others with their diesels) . The D300 would be worth a test drive though or hybrid.
I will prob trade in the 6 when they SVX V8 hybrid or similar.


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DieselRanger

Well-known member
My LR4 has diff lock display and truthfully I never look at it while negotiating a trail or wheelin. Why would I? You should also have already selected your 'Terrain Response' mode. Your eyes should be on selecting the best path, not watching your technology info. If the trail gets challenging you shouldn't even be looking at your info display, period.

You should have already walked the trail, made the decision that the side slope is too great for your COG (realistically you don't know your COG and when you are going to exceed your roll over point as roads are dynamic) and planned around the obstacle. I had a bubble gauge in my Scout. Rarely looked at it other than confirming what I already knew. Did the gauge help me make a decision? No, not at all. Guess what was more important. Where the vehicle track was relative to the trail which requires eyes ON the trail and maybe a spotter.

As for wading, walk the river. Seen several outcomes of people who didn't walk the river down in the gulches along the Platte. One Toyota Forerunner decided to take a different path across the river and dropped his front end into a hole. Hours of work and blowing out cylinders later ........... A wading depth gauge would have not changed the outcome as it would have been too late. Another was a Jeep that floated downstream, resting up against a large boulder. Guess what, tires are flotation devices. Again, poor judgement that any 'wading depth' info would not have prevented. Actual safe wading depth is beyond simple on-board sensors. Those sensors are really rear view mirrors.

Victory_Overland noted that LR's info is worthless and it would be much more useful if IIDTool like information was available. I would go one step further and add detailed weather, alerts, etc. Case in point was the couple who forded a river in the morning and when returning the river was much higher due to precip and snow melt. Swept away and the passenger lost her life. LR should be partnering with suppliers of ham radio systems to define interfaces that support standards and rely information. Why? Because I can guarantee you that in the mountains your cell phone or any navigation system reliant on cell technology will be dead on the trail.
I'm not advocating staring at your display as if flying an airplane on instruments. It's an "at a glance" confirmation, just like your bubble level, which you yourself used in exactly the same way as I'm saying you use the tech built in to the Land Rover. Of course you walk your course, but you most certainly do NOT walk a moving river without safety devices in place - six inches of moving water will sweep a human off their feet. You only ford clear, moving water where you absolutely know the depth and the path already, ideally at established, mapped fords. And as I said, in moving water under a 5,000 lb vehicle, the bottom shifts and moves, and what seemed like a good 2-1/2 feet can quickly turn into a bad 3+ feet if a wheel flips a rock under water in current. Yes, tires are flotation devices, and that's precisely why the Discovery and likely the Defender are limited to 900mm in practice (933mm in testing in still water) - because any deeper and it floats, per Land Rover.

Again, you can eyeball a slope, but without your own inclinometer it's a guess at best. If your Mark 1 Eyeball estimated an incline at 30 degrees and you get to the approach in the vehicle and it's indicating you're at 30 degrees before you get to the steep part, then you need to stop and have a think before you go on, so no, it's not a "rear view mirror". The squishy part between your ears needs hard data as well as experience to make the best predictions forward in time and space.

Finally, there are many 3rd party devices such as Garmin InReach that are available for summoning assistance and staying connected in the Backcountry - if you're not bringing these with you then, well, that's on you. Would I love to see that integrated in? Yeah, that will be great when Starlink finally gets up and running at the price points they claim they'll hit, but for now, a cell phone sized device that lets me text Pole to pole and in tripke-canopy jungle is good enough for me.

Done debating technology's merits, that was covered in the other locked thread ad nauseum.

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mpinco

Expedition Leader
Wading depth is under mirrors not bow wave, hence me pointing out this to you.

As has been pointed out now around 3 times, wade sensing is not about replacing checking river depth before you go in..so why keep bringing this up that you walk every river, so does nearly every 4x4er that knows there stuff. (Minus croc etc infested areas).......

So it is a feature of minimal functionality and for some it will lead to floating Defenders. Got it.

I'm not against technology. Just prefer they focus on useful features that would differentiate LR from the crowd.
 
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