Why buy a land cruiser?

Tex68w

Beach Bum
The only vehicle that, right now available at dealerships, that checks all my boxes is the Defender. I think the Defender is actually a great rig and it's on my list to consider, but I think it's too complicated and too "modern", which isn't a deal breaker but it's another compromise akin to "too big" or "not enough payload". It is not the kind of vehicle you can reasonably fix trailside. It's not even the kind of vehicle you can reasonably fix at a Land Rover dealership in some cases based on the TFL experience ;)

Who said that?
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
The new Defender as a viable option? Thanks for the laugh lol.

Ha! I was particular with my word choice there - “viable” isn’t the same as “best”! ;)

But jokes aside - no other wagon in North America has a 2k lbs payload and the off road capability the new Defender has in a relatively "mid-sized" footprint. I love everything it can do. I just dislike the way it is designed to do it. The Grenadier represents the exact same outcome but with a totally different design philosophy, and is much more akin to what the Land Cruiser is famous for. That aside, I've seen what happens on this forum when the New Defender comes up -- we get 100+ pages of arguments and the mods have to work overtime, so I vote we stick with talking about Land Cruisers!! :D

The older LCs are the penultimate example of the outcome I'm talking about -- a high-payload off-road capable touring wagon - and thats why I love them even though they have largely forgotten their roots a bit with the 300 series. Here's a good video from 4WD action on the new 300 series -- the conclusion is that it's very good, but there are some design choices that make me raise an eyebrow on this latest one in terms of long-term use:

 

nickw

Adventurer
They sell these with the same 4.0 used in the 4Runner. Why wouldn’t they be able to work on it?
I think they make even less sense with the 4.0.....but if I could order one, that's the engine I'd get since I'd stand a chance of getting parts for it locally, at least for the engine even though I'd be giving up some of the best benefits of it's reliability, ease of maintenance and range. All the other stuff is proprietary to the 70, axles, suspension, trans, tcase, etc....never mind body and interior.

I bet the majority of dealership would turn you away since it's not in their database and they don't have techs with the tribal knowledge of them.

I tried taking my 78 FJ40 in in the early 2000's, the gal on the phone had no clue ****** a FJ40 was, got the service manager on the phone who said they used to have a "cruiser" guy but he was long retired and they had no way to do even basic service on the rig.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I don't think your overall point is wrong about it being a small market, but I think especially in this community, that market is important. The use case described here is the vast majority of Overland travellers, and they aren't super well served by what is available in North America. Candidly, I don't think they are served by the Land Cruiser either, neither the 300 series nor the now-gone 200 series as both have similar "luxury bloat" problems.

All of our current offerings here represent some kind of significant and limiting compromise for the use case you described. If you want decent payload (i.e. 1 ton), it comes with a big footprint of a full size or larger truck (and most full sized trucks are not that great in payload, either, until you go to the HD series, which just makes the footprint problem worse). If you want something nimble and great off road and more "mid-sized", it comes with low payload (~1300-1500 lbs max). That doesn't go far if you've got camping gear, supplies, armour to protect the vehicle, and more than one passenger.

When I think of a touring rig, I want high payload, mid-sized, safe, and reliable.

Payload: I want to be able to bring extra fuel and water so I can explore with my family at my leisure far away from populated places. I want the payload to bring along some "Creature comforts" so that after 30 days on the road I'm not fed up of feeling roots in my back at night and smelling like a Sasquatch all day. And of course, I want to travel with my dogs, wife, and kid (who I also don't want smelling like Sasquatches). This really stretches the limits of 1500 lbs payload that I can get in most vehicles that match one of my other wants, which is...

Mid Sized: I want to be able to see little tracks off the side of the road and not be limited to saying "I wonder what's down there?" because my truck won't fit -- I want to just turn the wheel and check it out. We do this all the time on trips and have had a blast taking our Canyon down trails usually tackled by ATVs and Side-by-Sides. But given most of my travel will be highways between these little tracks, I also want...

Safe: There's no question that modern vehicles are safer than older ones. Airbags, crumple zones, etc. are all part of this equation. Modernity comes with other "nice to haves" -- heated seats and CarPlay make the driving experience much better, but "modern" usually gets a bit carried away and that brings me to...

Reliability: The only vehicle that, right now available at dealerships, that checks all my boxes is the Defender. I think the Defender is actually a great rig and it's on my list to consider, but I think it's too complicated and too "modern", which isn't a deal breaker but it's another compromise akin to "too big" or "not enough payload". It is not the kind of vehicle you can reasonably fix trailside. It's not even the kind of vehicle you can reasonably fix at a Land Rover dealership in some cases based on the TFL experience ;)

That's why I'm sticking with a mid-sized truck right now -- it's the smallest amount of compromise in a rig that checks my boxes. Of course, all vehicles are a compromise, but none of the North American ones so far really offer me the compromise I'm wanting to make -- I am happy to compromise on power and comfort. I can see the world on a KLR650. I don't need to see it quickly or comfortably, and on a KLR I know I won't be either of those things. But the KLR doesn't come with Car Seat anchors, and when I discuss fabricating some with my wife she thinks it might be perceived by the local police as "irresponsible parenting" and she's probably right about that. Plus the two German Shepherds aren't trained to hang on nor do they like wearing the helmets, and the whole thing just would be a bit cramped with all of us in the saddle.

So what 4x4 can I buy in North America that does all of the above? If I had to choose between a 70-series and a domestic full size at a dealership, I wouldn't even test drive the full size. But even then, the Toyota would be a compromise on safety given the age of the design, even if it would check all of my other boxes. Still, that might be a better compromise for me than compromising on my other criteria.

But it didn't and doesn't need to be this way - Toyota took the LC in the direction of "Luxury" in the last 40 years, probably because of the market that NickW is talking about; the market is not big enough to sell a ton of Utilitarian LCs. But I want a car that checks all my boxes, and I'm sad about "what could have been" with the Land Cruiser. This is why I'm keen on the Grenadier -- I think that if instead of going Luxury Bloat, the Land Cruisers stayed 70-series utilitarian for the last 40 years but updated and modernized it, I imagine it would land somewhere in the neighborhood of what the Grenadier is trying to be.

I'm hopeful it pans out. Time will tell.
I hope I am not coming across and anti LC70, I love the thigns, but I work in a technical field where we select based on measurable and quantitative requirements, I don't get paid for being emotional or suggesting things we don't have data to support.

So in saying that, the only thing on your list the LC wins vs domestic is physical size...if that's a limiter, than maybe a 70 makes sense assuming you need the payload.
 

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
I think they make even less sense with the 4.0.....but if I could order one, that's the engine I'd get since I'd stand a chance of getting parts for it locally, at least for the engine even though I'd be giving up some of the best benefits of it's reliability, ease of maintenance and range. All the other stuff is proprietary to the 70, axles, suspension, trans, tcase, etc....never mind body and interior.

I bet the majority of dealership would turn you away since it's not in their database and they don't have techs with the tribal knowledge of them.

I tried taking my 78 FJ40 in in the early 2000's, the gal on the phone had no clue ****** a FJ40 was, got the service manager on the phone who said they used to have a "cruiser" guy but he was long retired and they had no way to do even basic service on the rig.

I’ve taken my fj60 to two dealers and they had no issues working on it. I’m pretty sure of Toyota sold the 70 series, they would train dealers on how to work on them. They wouldn’t introduce a new vehicle and tell dealers “well you’re on your own”. That’s retarded and not even an argument.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
I hope I am not coming across and anti LC70, I love the thigns, but I work in a technical field where we select based on measurable and quantitative requirements, I don't get paid for being emotional or suggesting things we don't have data to support.

So in saying that, the only thing on your list the LC wins vs domestic is physical size...if that's a limiter, than maybe a 70 makes sense assuming you need the payload.

I am pretty sure it wins on payload as compared to most domestic vehicles by a wide margin. The HD series trucks match it but I think there’s only one 150 series pickup that can best the LC 70 series in payload and that requires a particular payload package (in other words it’s not super common). And, importantly, there are none that combine payload and size, and that’s important -if overall Size was the only thing that mattered I’d buy a Geo Metro and call it a day. But I might roll it over just by getting in! I also think statistically it wins on reliability - Out of all the land cruisers ever made, the average trouble-free mileage is much higher as compared to other rigs.

I don’t think your coming across as anti-land cruiser at all. My point is that if you go line by line, the LC doesn’t win on everything for sure, but the final product is greater than the sum of its on-paper stats. It’s about how all those stats come together as a recipe, and there are no domestic rigs that taste quite like 70 series and hit the same recipe. It’s a gap in the market - not a big one, to your point, but it’s a gap that isn’t served right now all the same.
 

XJLI

Adventurer
I don't think your overall point is wrong about it being a small market, but I think especially in this community, that market is important. The use case described here is the vast majority of Overland travellers, and they aren't super well served by what is available in North America. Candidly, I don't think they are served by the Land Cruiser either, neither the 300 series nor the now-gone 200 series as both have similar "luxury bloat" problems.

All of our current offerings here represent some kind of significant and limiting compromise for the use case you described. If you want decent payload (i.e. 1 ton), it comes with a big footprint of a full size or larger truck (and most full sized trucks are not that great in payload, either, until you go to the HD series, which just makes the footprint problem worse). If you want something nimble and great off road and more "mid-sized", it comes with low payload (~1300-1500 lbs max). That doesn't go far if you've got camping gear, supplies, armour to protect the vehicle, and more than one passenger.

When I think of a touring rig, I want high payload, mid-sized, safe, and reliable.

.....

I'm hopeful it pans out. Time will tell.

This was a great writeup on what a "real" overland rig should be. Toyota doesn't give AF because there are probably less than 100 people in the USA who would buy one new if it was offered, and not because it isn't what they wanted, it's because it would cost $85k.

The new Defender as a viable option? Thanks for the laugh lol.

Why? Because its "nOt ReLiAbLe?" Fact is, if you strip away emotion and just look at the specs on paper if offers all the correct numbers. It's too bad JLR doesn't offer the new straight six diesels here, because they are awesome motors. Time will tell on the new Igenium stuff, but they seem to be as reliable as any other late model luxury brand's motors.

Don't get me wrong, I think people should drive whatever the hell they want, and all the import rules are stupid and if someone has the money they should be able to import and tag whatever... even if its a SsanYong or cheap junk Chinese car. It isn't my issue if someone wants to drive something with the crash safety rating worse than an '88 Corolla.

If it were me? I'd skip right over the 70 Series and drive a real truck... a Y61 Patrol.
 

NoDak

Well-known member
I am pretty sure it wins on payload as compared to most domestic vehicles by a wide margin. The HD series trucks match it but I think there’s only one 150 series pickup that can best the LC 70 series in payload and that requires a particular payload package (in other words it’s not super common).

The LC payload is generally way overstated. My standard payload steel bodied F150 has more payload than a 79 dual cab. I've also driven 70 series all over Iraq and Africa and they aren't much smaller either with the exception being interior space.

That being said I'd be standing in line at the dealer to buy one if ever offered them in the US. I love them.
 

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
This was a great writeup on what a "real" overland rig should be. Toyota doesn't give AF because there are probably less than 100 people in the USA who would buy one new if it was offered, and not because it isn't what they wanted, it's because it would cost $85k.



Why? Because its "nOt ReLiAbLe?" Fact is, if you strip away emotion and just look at the specs on paper if offers all the correct numbers. It's too bad JLR doesn't offer the new straight six diesels here, because they are awesome motors. Time will tell on the new Igenium stuff, but they seem to be as reliable as any other late model luxury brand's motors.

Don't get me wrong, I think people should drive whatever the hell they want, and all the import rules are stupid and if someone has the money they should be able to import and tag whatever... even if its a SsanYong or cheap junk Chinese car. It isn't my issue if someone wants to drive something with the crash safety rating worse than an '88 Corolla.

If it were me? I'd skip right over the 70 Series and drive a real truck... a Y61 Patrol.

Patrol
 

Tex68w

Beach Bum
This was a great writeup on what a "real" overland rig should be. Toyota doesn't give AF because there are probably less than 100 people in the USA who would buy one new if it was offered, and not because it isn't what they wanted, it's because it would cost $85k.



Why? Because its "nOt ReLiAbLe?" Fact is, if you strip away emotion and just look at the specs on paper if offers all the correct numbers. It's too bad JLR doesn't offer the new straight six diesels here, because they are awesome motors. Time will tell on the new Igenium stuff, but they seem to be as reliable as any other late model luxury brand's motors.

Don't get me wrong, I think people should drive whatever the hell they want, and all the import rules are stupid and if someone has the money they should be able to import and tag whatever... even if its a SsanYong or cheap junk Chinese car. It isn't my issue if someone wants to drive something with the crash safety rating worse than an '88 Corolla.

If it were me? I'd skip right over the 70 Series and drive a real truck... a Y61 Patrol.


Reliability goes a long way when it comes to something you might be depending on for days or weeks on end and possibly miles from civilization or help. We are in the Land Cruiser sub-forum so that should be a dead giveaway as to what most here expect from such a vehicle and nothing that LR makes qualifies, most notably the new Defender. Im not doubting its off-road chops, most vehicles they make certainly have that, but who wants to spend their time running to and from the dealer (of which most are located only in major metropolitan areas) to chase down electrical gremlins and possibly even bigger issues as have already been documented not to mention the constant worry and doubt in the back of your mind?!

I am all for people driving what they want, but logic and better judgement argues against the new Defender if you enjoy spending your time exploring the outback and not the nearest LR dealer. I generally like the way they look, most notably the rear, but part of me still believes it was supposed to be the new Discovery and simply got relabeled, but that's just me lol. I say run what you've brung, but I simply can't get behind anyone overlooking glaring reliability issues not only with the specific model but with the brand in general in favor of dimensions.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I’ve taken my fj60 to two dealers and they had no issues working on it. I’m pretty sure of Toyota sold the 70 series, they would train dealers on how to work on them. They wouldn’t introduce a new vehicle and tell dealers “well you’re on your own”. That’s retarded and not even an argument.
When did you take your FJ in? Many dealers can't do anything beyond basic maintenance on even 80's these days since many major parts are NLA.

Look at what I said, I picked my words carefully:

"if the US government *allowed* us to import a brand new 76"

I didn't say if Toyota sold them here. If Toyota sold them here of course they'd have to support (I think legally for 10 years?), it's likely one of the reasons Toyota won't sell them, the logistics and supply chain to get all dealers spun up to support a niche low volume rig is big $$. The only viable way this would happen, I thought, would be for gov regulation amendments to allow import......
 

jmodz

Active member
I think the 70 series would be popular among two groups, the enthusiasts and the fleet/construction crowd. Which I think is the exact same crowd they are popular with in AUS. They aren’t as well known here so they are never going to be as popular but my brother-in-law is in construction and he wanted a troop carrier before he settled for his sprinter van. Also, there is a utility services company next to my work and they have mostly Ram 1500 classics, a few 2500’s, and a few midsized trucks. They actually just got a new frontier in. So for their use case I imagine the double cab Ute would check all their boxes and then some.

As for a land cruiser that isn’t completely a pipe dream, a 300 series with an FJC like interior and the detuned 3.4L from the SR Tundra would be cool. Even if they had to bring it here as the Lexus LX600 lite and keep it in the back of the dealer lots. It would probably sell in decent volume for 2-3 years and then bottom out like the FJ did.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I am pretty sure it wins on payload as compared to most domestic vehicles by a wide margin. The HD series trucks match it but I think there’s only one 150 series pickup that can best the LC 70 series in payload and that requires a particular payload package (in other words it’s not super common). And, importantly, there are none that combine payload and size, and that’s important -if overall Size was the only thing that mattered I’d buy a Geo Metro and call it a day. But I might roll it over just by getting in! I also think statistically it wins on reliability - Out of all the land cruisers ever made, the average trouble-free mileage is much higher as compared to other rigs.

I don’t think your coming across as anti-land cruiser at all. My point is that if you go line by line, the LC doesn’t win on everything for sure, but the final product is greater than the sum of its on-paper stats. It’s about how all those stats come together as a recipe, and there are no domestic rigs that taste quite like 70 series and hit the same recipe. It’s a gap in the market - not a big one, to your point, but it’s a gap that isn’t served right now all the same.
I'm glad I am not coming across like that :)

I was specifically talking about HD trucks that kill the LC in Payload, although a F150 HDPP is as good or better than most Aussie spec 70's.

But you take your req:
Payload
Midsize
Safe
Reliable

Very basic list but if you remove "Midsize", many HD domestic vehicles meet the Payload, Safe and Reliable category good *enough* or BETTER.

There are other categories and sub-categories that are just as important, Comfort, Durability, Longevity, Range, Field Repairability, Maintenance ease, Parts availability, On-Highway performance, Off-Highway performance, Aftermarket Support and others domestic rigs would outright win some of.

as @NoDak points out, I don't think 70's have the payload many people think! Some of the workmate ones with lower curb weight and super stiff suspension are in the range of the super low capacity 3/4T, many don't.

I also think it's REALLY important to point out, as we've seen on many other rigs, payload capacity on vehicles sold in the US and Aus markets is always significantly higher in Aus. I bet with our safety and performance requirements here domestically you'd see most 70's with Payload in the 1500-2000 lb range vs the 1800 - 2300 range we see in Aus.

If your use case is: midsize, highly durable, outright reliability, moderate payload, moderate safety, no care about parts, very poor highway performance, very poor performance at altitude, moderate offroad performance, HIGHLY field repairable then LC70 with 1HZ makes sense. Option it with the V8 diesel or V6 petrol, you start losing some of the attributes e.g. field repairable and reliability but maybe gain some on-road performance or parts availability.

Complex decision and a LC70 isn't best use case unless you can define requirements.....
 

nickw

Adventurer
I think the 70 series would be popular among two groups, the enthusiasts and the fleet/construction crowd. Which I think is the exact same crowd they are popular with in AUS. They aren’t as well known here so they are never going to be as popular but my brother-in-law is in construction and he wanted a troop carrier before he settled for his sprinter van. Also, there is a utility services company next to my work and they have mostly Ram 1500 classics, a few 2500’s, and a few midsized trucks. They actually just got a new frontier in. So for their use case I imagine the double cab Ute would check all their boxes and then some.

As for a land cruiser that isn’t completely a pipe dream, a 300 series with an FJC like interior and the detuned 3.4L from the SR Tundra would be cool. Even if they had to bring it here as the Lexus LX600 lite and keep it in the back of the dealer lots. It would probably sell in decent volume for 2-3 years and then bottom out like the FJ did.
Good points....I like the idea of a stripped down LC300, but honestly if you are ok with the form factor of a pickup, why not just get a Tundra? Same drivetrain, axles and diffs as far as I know, I actually think the bigger engined Tundras had a bigger rear axle than any LC did.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
The LC payload is generally way overstated. My standard payload steel bodied F150 has more payload than a 79 dual cab. I've also driven 70 series all over Iraq and Africa and they aren't much smaller either with the exception being interior space.

That being said I'd be standing in line at the dealer to buy one if ever offered them in the US. I love them.

Going based on what I read, the fact that one CAN get a high payload (regardless of how common) is what I’m mostly referring to. As NickW said this seems to be a specific package. I also recognize they aren’t that much smaller than an F-150 - my Canyon isn’t that much smaller than my now-sold Full Size Chevy, either. But it was enough to make the difference, sometimes a big one, especially in terms of driveability off road. If GM/Ford/Jeep offered a high payload option in the midsized segment it would check all my boxes. That’s the magic cocktail we are missing out on.

I'm glad I am not coming across like that :)

I was specifically talking about HD trucks that kill the LC in Payload, although a F150 HDPP is as good or better than most Aussie spec 70's.

But you take your req:
Payload
Midsize
Safe
Reliable

Very basic list but if you remove "Midsize", many HD domestic vehicles meet the Payload, Safe and Reliable category good *enough* or BETTER.

There are other categories and sub-categories that are just as important, Comfort, Durability, Longevity, Range, Field Repairability, Maintenance ease, Parts availability, On-Highway performance, Off-Highway performance, Aftermarket Support and others domestic rigs would outright win some of.

I don’t disagree but to borrow a funny phrase from my dad, if the Queen had testicles, she’d be King. Yes if you remove the mid-size requirement, there are a lot of good options. But, the size is a dealbreaker. I’ve had both the mid size and full size and used them simultaneously— the full size just isn’t as good off road and on trails. I can have a perfect full size rig in every way, but if it’s too big to take it to the places I like to go, it’s not useful for my use case.

as @NoDak points out, I don't think 70's have the payload many people think! Some of the workmate ones with lower curb weight and super stiff suspension are in the range of the super low capacity 3/4T, many don't.

I also think it's REALLY important to point out, as we've seen on many other rigs, payload capacity on vehicles sold in the US and Aus markets is always significantly higher in Aus. I bet with our safety and performance requirements here domestically you'd see most 70's with Payload in the 1500-2000 lb range vs the 1800 - 2300 range we see in Aus.

If your use case is: midsize, highly durable, outright reliability, moderate payload, moderate safety, no care about parts, very poor highway performance, very poor performance at altitude, moderate offroad performance, HIGHLY field repairable then LC70 with 1HZ makes sense. Option it with the V8 diesel or V6 petrol, you start losing some of the attributes e.g. field repairable and reliability but maybe gain some on-road performance or parts availability.

Complex decision and a LC70 isn't best use case unless you can define requirements.....

Totally agree about the disparity between ratings in Australia and the USA are different — the payload limitations in North America seem to be driven more by regulation than engineering, that’s a good point to bear in mind.

But to your other point, for me (and for a lot of Overland travellers, which is the use case I described with my mid size, high payload, safe, and reliable list) a full size is not an apples to apples comparison to a land cruiser. The failings of the land cruiser represent a totally different compromise than a full size. I don’t mind if off road performance is only “moderate” - getting stuck is part of life and getting unstuck is part of the fun and I’m not a rock crawler so I don’t need 44” tires with articulation that allows me to drive up the CN tower. I don’t worry about parts; FedEx can get me what I need anywhere in the world and with an LC, I can be fairly confident of what I’ll need barring a highly unlikely event (I.e. the whole engine blows up). I’m not worried about comfort or highway performance, some of which can be addressed easily in the aftermarket, but most of which I can live with. These are all compromises I can make.

But I can’t make an f-150 smaller.

And there are no cars that match the use case I described for sale in North America. As I said above if the mid sized trucks came with a high payload package -- even an extra 500 lbs would do me — they’d be perfect. But they don’t, and as you’ve said, the market with my use case is fairly small so it’s not a gap the big automakers seem eager to fill.

But they could, as Ineos is trying to prove - and they used to. Besides the land cruiser, I think someone made a post somewhere on these boards about a first gen 4-runner (or something like that) which had shocking payload numbers and checked all my other boxes except safety. And the safety thing isn’t to say they are unsafe, it’s just an acknowledgment that vehicle tech/design has come a long way.

I’m not saying the 70 series is the perfect choice - I’m saying it has a combination of features that fills a niche in the market that is not fully met by full size domestics (or any other car on dealer lots today).
 
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