Why no SAS on "expo" type trucks???

[Viggen]

- They are very rarely seem to be done right it seems. By right, I mean, an OEM quality job. Those that are are very expensively done.
- Keeping the truck low is very very difficult. A frame that was designed from the factory for IFS is not going to have the same clearances and accommodations as one that was designed for a solid axle. If you do run a solid front, it seems that you are usually seeing pretty large tires and a lot of belly height.
- Unless you dump a lot of money into a linked system with coils, the ride is not going to be what you hoped it would be.

I do not buy that SAS necessarily is an unreliable thing. I think that is not true. It just brings a different set of issues. IFS has its issues. Solid swaps have their issues. If I had a 4Runner, I would have a 4WU swap kit on it in a second.

 

[Kevin108]

I learned the expensive way that those guards are only protect the front of the boots. Had a Polaris (sportsman?) busting through some small trees, as soon as I had to reverse back out the cv boots are torn up.

It's not perfect, but I think when I replaced mine, they were like $6 each. Forward protection only is better than nothing.

 

[Doc_]

Late to the party here, but I prefer SFA rigs over IFS simply because they're in line with my lifestyle philosophy: "Keep it simple, stupid". Same reason why I'll always be more comfortable with an inline engine, a manual transmission, and a stripper package interior. Less things to go wrong, fixes in the field are simpler.
Nonetheless, the buy-in for overlanding is expensive; especially if you're giving ear to folks that say you need the rooftop tent and the adventure trailer and the expensive portable kitchen. Adding another 4 grand in parts and labor onto your truck just breaks the bank. Parts availability is another valid concern, but I feel that it's less compelling once you start throwing aftermarket coils and struts and ball-joints at a factory IFS rig: obscurity becomes inevitable. If you do a SAS, it's a lot easier to go to a nearby parts store and pick up trunion bearings for an '85 Toyota pickup axle or '90 Dodge W100 D60 than finding Icon struts or Total Chaos A-arms.

 

[Clutch]

Late to the party here, but I prefer SFA rigs over IFS simply because they're in line with my lifestyle philosophy: "Keep it simple, stupid". Same reason why I'll always be more comfortable with an inline engine, a manual transmission, and a stripper package interior. Less things to go wrong, fixes in the field are simpler.
Nonetheless, the buy-in for overlanding is expensive; especially if you're giving ear to folks that say you need the rooftop tent and the adventure trailer and the expensive portable kitchen. Adding another 4 grand in parts and labor onto your truck just breaks the bank. Parts availability is another valid concern, but I feel that it's less compelling once you start throwing aftermarket coils and struts and ball-joints at a factory IFS rig: obscurity becomes inevitable. If you do a SAS, it's a lot easier to go to a nearby parts store and pick up trunion bearings for an '85 Toyota pickup axle or '90 Dodge W100 D60 than finding Icon struts or Total Chaos A-arms.

My 85 4Runner was fussier than any of the IFS Toyotas I have owned. (birfs...ugggh!) Current one went 250K miles without having to touch it other than coil-overs. Did rebuild the whole front end recently...didn't really need it though...just did it because I had everything ripped apart since I was replacing the CV's...one of those, everything looks good...but since I have it ripped apart and there are so many miles on the ol' girl...might as well make it fresh.

 

[Wanderer1]

Dump the "Expo".if AAA can't get me then I want simplicity. I've no problem with my IFS vehicles currently but my favorite is my '82 toy truck, however I'm not fond of the OEM carb. Wish it were a naturally aspirated diesel. Just simple.

 

[Clutch]

Dump the "Expo".if AAA can't get me then I want simplicity. I've no problem with my IFS vehicles currently but my favorite is my '82 toy truck, however I'm not fond of the OEM carb. Wish it were a naturally aspirated diesel. Just simple.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.376628989124945.1073741831.150757925045387&type=3

 

[ExplorerTom]

I run a SAS'd Explorer. I've only had it SAS'd almost 2 years now. It's a Dana30 from a Cherokee. I had the plate steel bumpers, sliders and gears prior to the SAS. In that time there's been a lot of fine tuning to get the SAS dialed in- spring rates, fasteners, rod ends..... But it's taken me on several day trips, weekend trips around the state and even 5 days on the Kokopelli and Paradox trails.

While there is the argument that keeping it IFS keeps is most reliable, when I was IFS and needing to use a little wheel spin to get over something, my main concern was snapping a CV with some sudden traction discovery. Now the SAS provides more articulation, which provides better traction with all 4 tires staying in constant contact, wheel spin is a thing of the past. The Trutracs help- and now I can run one in the front with confidence. Except for the steering links, everything used can be sourced from any part store in the US. If I bend the 1/4" wall DOM tubing used for the steering links, I'll probably have serious other problems that will be preventing me from driving home.

It's no Cadillac on the highway, but I'd equate it to a Cherokee or Wrangler with a similar suspension lift. I've logged several back-to-back days behind the wheel on the trail and have been fine. I don't need to drive halfway across the country to get to the places I want to get, but even still I don't think it would be a problem with my build.

From what I've seen in my experience, 20 years ago 32" tires were HUGE and were plenty for 95% of the trails in the state. Now 33s are barely big enough. The more trails get used, the more dug out they get, the tougher they are becoming.

Now there are times when I question my decision to have it SAS'd, but it usually a sign of me not being on the trail in awhile.

 

[Wanderer1]

What a beautiful truck.

I remember folks afraid of loosing carbs to EFI. The under hood non-clutter of my '05 4Runner and '13Tacoma compared to my '82 is night and day. I guess the IFS brought the same fear?

With simplicity in mind, I'd rather have one of my newer rigs with IFS and the lack of crazy vacuum lines.....but could I just have manual locking hubs and transfer case? Lol.

 

[marshal]

i'll say this, if someone offered me a camburg long travel IFS for my truck or offered to swap a equal travel dana 60 or a toyota 9.5" solid axle in the front - i would take the solid axle any day.

IFS is cool and i like it a lot for road manners, but when you're already to the point that you don't roll on anything other than MT tires; you've already thrown road manners out the window.

 

[redthies]

They both have their place. My work truck has a sfa and straight six and 35s. My 100 series has OME suspension and 33" ATs. I know which one I'd rather drive around the world. I'd also skip the $2k rtt, and the pullout kitchen things. A Coleman stove on a folding table is just fine.

 

[Clutch]

i'll say this, if someone offered me a camburg long travel IFS for my truck or offered to swap a equal travel dana 60 or a toyota 9.5" solid axle in the front - i would take the solid axle any day.

IFS is cool and i like it a lot for road manners, but when you're already to the point that you don't roll on anything other than MT tires; you've already thrown road manners out the window.

Think I would take the cash option and keep the truck stock.

http://camburg.com/photos/project-gallery/wolf-hunter-tacoma/


*Whew* ^^^ that buys an awful lot of fuel and tacos....

They both have their place. My work truck has a sfa and straight six and 35s. My 100 series has OME suspension and 33" ATs. I know which one I'd rather drive around the world. I'd also skip the $2k rtt, and the pullout kitchen things. A Coleman stove on a folding table is just fine.

You have a fold out table!!?? Damn high roller! I just use the tailgate...

 

[p nut]

...While there is the argument that keeping it IFS keeps is most reliable, when I was IFS and needing to use a little wheel spin to get over something, my main concern was snapping a CV with some sudden traction discovery. ...

I don't know how stout Explorer IFS are, but when I had my 100-series, I had zero concerns about this. (Although I was mindful of the front diff). LC IFS seemed to be pretty strong, along with Tacoma/4Runners, and over the years, only recall a couple instances of someone breaking an axle (and that was on BOTH sides of the camp--sfa and ifs). Even with that, the swap was quick and easy. Just use Toyota OEM stuff, and it will be very reliable.

Also, out here in Utah, lots of fast dirt roads, where I definitely prefer IFS for comfort.

 

[Dalko43]

It seems to me that it's a matter of cost.

Taking a brand new SUV (the 5th gen 4runner for example) or even a relatively new SUV (like a 4th gen 4runner) and then spending the $ to take out the well-engineered IFS and swap in a solid axle would be expensive, at least I'd imagine it would be.

From a financial perspective, it makes a lot more sense to take an older, beat up truck (like an early 100 series LC or a 3rd gen 4runner) and do the SAS, since a lot of the suspension components are probably worn out or just plain broken; you could also consider that a restoration (with some improvements). The cost of the truck itself has probably already bottomed out in value, so adding some major mods might make that kind of truck more attractive on the used market. I wouldn't call it a win-win situation since you'll still likely lose money if you decide to sell it, but at least your minimizing how much $ you lose through depreciation and modding work.

I've thought that it would be cool if I could find a solid axle to put on my own 4runner. But given what I just paid for it, and the fact that its IFS works perfectly fine for 99% of the driving I do, that's not going to happen anytime soon...maybe if I keep it as a long-term truck (+9 years), I could see doing some sort of rework on the suspension.

Honestly, if you want a proper solid axle truck from the get go, buy one that comes like that from the factory: Jeep; Ram 2500; Land Cruiser 80 series; Ford F-250; or buy a Land Cruiser imported from overseas. Saves you the hassle and cost of having to do the SAS.

 

[bkg]

My 85 4Runner was fussier than any of the IFS Toyotas I have owned. (birfs...ugggh!)

I love ya like a long lost cousin, but I call BS on this.

I've owned way too many Toyotas - mini-truck/4Runner model except a 4th Gen 'Runner. No way in heck will an SFA give you more trouble than IFS. Simply not possible.

Birfs? RCV - never a problem again.
Push-Pull steering? Yup - worthy of complaint. Cross-over and never an issue again.
Leaf Springs are stupid simple.

IFS:
More moving parts - period. End of story.
Hi-Trac has tons of relay rod issues, pitman arm and idler arm issues
Very hard to keep aligned.

Tacoma IFS.
Racks and rack bushings blow out
CV's are not the greatest
Needs upper arms for alignment correction
Alignment after every wheeling trip still a possibility.
Unit-Bearing failure is typical, especially in mud/water conditions.


I own both... Currently have an 87 SAS'd 4Runner, 04 SAS'd/linked Tacoma, 04 IFS Tacoma and a 5th gen 4Runner and Tundra. While the IFS, for the most part, does ride nicer, I'd take my 4Runner any day over any of the IFS trucks on a long journey - if wheeling is involved.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

It should be a matter of cost.

You can buy a cheap leaf spring SAS kit for many Toyotas, and it takes only a few days to install it, front and rear, but you definitely get what you pay for.

A quality solid axle swap with a custom axle housing, RCV's, ARB's, regeared diffs, properly engineered links and coils, a sway bar, low ride height, double transfer cases, wheels and tires, driveshafts, good brakes, bumpers, etc will run into the 10s of thousands. It's usually an even split between parts and labor, roughly $15K for each.

But that gets you a truck that is nice to drive, doesn't handle funky, you can give the keys to your wife and not worry she's going to crash it while picking the kids up from school and also, it passes the "valet test" where you can give it over to a parking valet and NOT have to warn him about anything.

It can also cost a lot more, but that's a generally safe price zone to get a quality truck.

Something like this: