Why no SAS on "expo" type trucks???

[Box Rocket]

:Wow1: This thread really took off. So for starters, I kind of was directing this original question to the Toyota truck crowd, but was glad to hear from everybody. Thanks for all the input and information! Really this question stemmed from the Idea of picking up a some what rare Toyota truck, that is only 2wd with a 1-ton rear end, 22-re, auto trans. It is a 1986 pickup. There is no way I could leave it 2wd, and would want to convert it to 4wd. And if I was going to be doing all that work, would it be worth it to got from 2wd IFS to 4wd IFS or do the SAS. And if I'm correct (which isn't as much as I'd like to think) doesn't the 2wd pickup front frame rails have the arch in it, making you able to do a SAS with a lower center of gravity? I would want to do the swap/ conversion using as many stock toyota parts as possible. Either taking a 86' 4x4 IFS front end or stepping back a year to an 85' 4x4 solid axle. I probably should have mentioned this all from the get go, to allow for better more precise feedback. Again Thanks to all that tossed their .02 in. There are some seriously knowledgeable people on this forum, the rest of you not so much:jump:

If that truck is the one you're wanting to modify then it would be much more simple (and likely cheaper) to do a SAS rather than retrofitting the 4WD IFS. If you really wanted to do the IFS, you'd be better off finding a 4WD IFS truck and swapping in the Auto trans and the 1-ton rear end. If it were me, I'd SAS this particular truck even though I prefer IFS for "overlanding". Then I'd look at some Alcan springs (or something similar) that can be custom built to your specs to handle the weight you have and the amount of lift you want. I had a solid axle '85 truck with Alcan springs and Bilstein shocks and it rode extremely well and could have been very comfortable for "expo" travel. It's just a matter of finding the right suspension parts.

 

[bkg]

And if I'm correct (which isn't as much as I'd like to think) doesn't the 2wd pickup front frame rails have the arch in it, making you able to do a SAS with a lower center of gravity? I would want to do the swap/ conversion using as many stock toyota parts as possible. Either taking a 86' 4x4 IFS front end or stepping back a year to an 85' 4x4 solid axle. I probably should have mentioned this all from the get go, to allow for better more precise feedback. Again Thanks to all that tossed their .02 in. There are some seriously knowledgeable people on this forum, the rest of you not so much:jump:

quick search on Pirate4x4 will yield a number of 2wd to 4wd SAS conversions. VERY easy to keep a 2wd low due to the frame design. Converting to IFS 4WD? Not going to happen w/o a new frame or an insane amount of expensive custom work.

 

[donaldcon]

Agreed, 2wd, with low cog converted to 4wd is easy

Go solid for that swap.

This is a 2wd converted. It was lower than this when my buddy did it. Was on 33 as shown, but new owner lifted it more for 35s.

When it was first converted it was daily driven too

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Again Thanks to all that tossed their .02 in. There are some seriously knowledgeable people on this forum, the rest of you not so much:jump:

Oh, I've given at least $1.00 worth of opinion.

 

[donaldcon]

Even the bouncers are going ifs...

https://youtu.be/jbPlqfgYzKc


https://youtu.be/Z71pNAi5q5U

 

[ZMagic97]

About a year ago I sold my JK (solid axles) and bought a GMC Sierra, with IFS. So far every back road, trail, wash board path, and forest road has been much more comfortable to travel on with IFS and I feel like there is no need for a SAS. I honestly was thinking of doing a SAS, but realistically I will never need it.

 

[Ben in Nevada]

People that want to travel will keep their money and time for traveling instead of building extensive projects in the shop. Since most vehicles on the market shifted away from solid front axles decades ago, there aren't many options left without going vintage or with a SAS. There are some, but if one wonders why there aren't as many overland vehicles with solid front axles as there used to be, it's because there are fewer choices. Personally, I like vintage and project vehicles, but they are inversely proportional to my involvement in actual travel.

 

[Volcom]

I've got an 84 4Runner on 40's. It's a rock crawler without a doubt. But my friend DirtCO and I ran the majority of the Kokopelli (Dewey Bridge to Moab) all in one day. Yeah it was a long day in the seat. My 4Runner is not a DD, it's gets trailered. It did well that day all on one tank of fuel!

 

[RoyJ]

For me, if I'm on a true "expo", away from civilization for extended periods, then I won't be tackling anything that requires a SA. Instead, my focus is to drive conservatively, and therefore enhance reliability, and see / experience as much remote land as possible.

This is not to say I'd refuse an OEM SA vehicle (would take one in a heartbeat), but rather, I don't want to be dealing with custom designed hardware in a remote town in Alaska.

So far, almost every benefit listed for a solid front axle belongs to the "wheeling" or rock crawling category. And if I were more into that type of driving I'd get a solid axle truck for sure. But on remote expeditions, that's when I'd pull off my dirt bike and blast away. Can't risk a $20k tow or deserting my 100 series...

 

[ADVW/Liam]

I have just been wondering, why you don't see many guys doing the solid axle swap on their Expo type trucks? Every time I crawl under my tacoma and see a ripped CV boot or see the leaky rack, I miss the solid axles my Jeeps had.

I can't afford it, or I would. My truck would be down for a lengthy amount of time, my only other mode of transportation is my Ultra Limited that I hate to get dirty so I try not to ride in the rain, and I'd have to kick my wife's car outta of the garage while I'm working on the truck. Not to mention I'd have to get a welder (ESAB Rebel) which would cost thousands, buy a tube bender so it looks professional, spend too much on the coil overs cause leaf springs will make it sit too high for my taste, not to mention, I'd probably go with a G2 Rock Jock Dana 60 because I don't want anything to break... ever... which would cost about $3-4,000.00 for the axle alone. If the Ford and Ram 3/4-1 ton trucks can operate on the highway with a solid axle, then I don't see why a SAS could not be done correctly, and have excellent ride quality.

I'd love to do it, but my calling is Law Enforcement (yup, I'm one of those guys...) and I just cant justify spending the money I make just trying to get home to my little boy at the end of the day on an SAS on my Tacoma. I'm already planning a re-gear to 4.56, air lockers, and probably a set of Toyota CV axles (I'm having a hard time trusting the aftermarket) which will be close to the $4,000.00 mark... That's probably a little overkill for over landing anyway, but I like to hit the trails too.

Bottom line, in my opinion, if your income is that disposable, and you can do it right, then go for it! I'd love to do it myself.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I don't want to be dealing with custom designed hardware in a remote town in Alaska.

That is the primary reason why I try to use as many OEM type parts in my builds as possible. If there's a chance it could break or wear out, I don't want to have my customer waiting for a red label package from Summit Racing for a replacement part.

 

[Dalko43]

BKG and offroadohio have both put made some very strong points about IFS. Offroadohio pointed out that there are many more IFS racing rigs these days, which implies that it is at least as good as solid axle. But Brian's point about IFS cost is spot on.

Do you know what those KOH guys pay for a good (not race winning, just good) IFS setup? $50K plus. Just for the IFS.

I'll hold my ground that dollar for dollar, pound for pound, solid axle is still extremely relevant to any kind of offroading. It may not be right for you, but that's an apples to oranges comparison.

Probably also worth pointing out is that an offroad race like KOH and recreational overlanding are two separate activities. A team competing in that kind of environment has different goals and different resources (financial and gear-wise) than say just someone who wants to tour the Utah countryside. Like some have already noted, the cost for building and maintaining a good IFS setup for hard, rock-crawling use is high. As an analogy, does it make sense to put a fully prepped race-car suspension on daily commuter car??

Also, the KOH teams aren't just rock-crawling, they're also doing some high-speed runs over dirt/desert roads, which is likely a major reason why many teams have switched to IFS setups. FWIW, the solid axle rigs have taken most of the 1st place finishes over the last few years, so its not like IFS is the more advanced, more effective setup as some people have implied. Each setup has its inherent pro's and con's. But when it comes to technical/challenging terrain, the solid axle still seems to have the advantage. Toyota, among others, still make front solid axle vehicles for overseas markets for that very reason.