XJ drive-line vibration issue

b52

New member
"drive line specialist"

Ain't that a joke...

Point your differential input at the output of the transfer minus 1 degree and you will be golden.

Theory why:

U-joints vibrate when running at an angle.

In order to have a smooth running drive line u-joints are paired together and phased such that their combined vibrations cancel out.

This is what happens at the transfer case end of your new propellor shaft. The two u-joints at that end cancel out each others vibrations.

The differential end of the propellor shaft has only one u-joint. If it runs at an angle you will feel the vibration caused by the joint. The greater the angle the more the vibration.

You are in Toronto. Take your Jeep to National 4x4 in Burlington and get this fixed properly if you are not able to deal with it yourself.

HTH

Will National 4X4 be able to fix this issue? I have been to three mechanics, one a Jeep Mechanic (Rock Spyder 4X4), the other was a General Mechanic and then finally the drive line specialists (Drive Tech) and none of which can fix this. If National can fix this, Ill be up there in a heart beat!
 

b52

New member
Well, not being familiar with your "specialist's" computer program, it would be hard to comment on what he was trying to accomplish, but let me guess, the program is intended to deal with stock drive lines, not custom creations. If you had a stock drive shaft, you would have two u-joints, one at the T-case, one at the pinion. These joints would have to be kept close to the same angle to keep the joints running in the same ellipse at the same speed. A computer program could do something like this fairly easily because it is just math. Each joint in a standard drive shaft should be at an equal but opposite angle from its mate.

The double cardon joint creates a zero angle at the output end of the joint, regardless of the angle at which the shaft lies at rest. Some folks refer to these as constant velocity joints. Because the double cardon leaves the drive shaft without any joint to joint speed matching issues, putting an angle on the pinion end joint defeats the purpose of having the double cardon by creating a drive shaft with ONE joint running without another to balance out rotational variations arising from the design of the joint. The farther the pinion end joint is from zero the worse the vibrations, so when your specialist cranked in additional pinion angle, he made matters worse, not better, assuming that when he added shims he pointed the nose of the pinion down instead of up.

The pinion shaft needs to point straight at the output end of the double cardon joint. This almost certainly will require pointing the pinion UP from where it was when stock. Most shims cause the pinion to point DOWN when installed as intended. If this is what was done with your vehicle, you may be able to mitigate the misalignment by installing the shims the other way around, but best to get under your ride and take a look to see which way the shims are installed, and how much of an angle the rear joint is running at. Check for running angle with the car normally loaded and the tires on the ground, not hanging in space, which should put the drive line somewhere in the middle of its range of travel.

You can lift a vehicle to such an extent that joints run at 20 to 40 degrees without creating dangerous vibration if you use the right joints. With your small degree of lift, you should be not more than 10 to 20 degrees at the double cardon, which should be within the range of a standard joint (I believe a standard double cardon will run at around 30 degrees without binding), and near zero at the rear, which obviously is within range of any u-joint. If your guy set up the pinion so that it too had 15 degrees of tilt between pinion shaft and drive shaft, it is already close to its working limit, and could bind, depending on the exact joint used. There are high-clearance, high angle joints out there, but most folks don't use them. Or to put it the other way around, those who do use them also know how to build a proper drive shaft.

Anyway, the safest and easiest way to realign your pinion will be to reset the spring perches, which requires taking the axle loose from the springs, cutting off the old perches, and welding on new ones after grinding off the weld lines. Shims are okay for verifying new running angles, but I really don't think they are a best option for long term use because they can and do wear, they can shift around, and they can pop out under stress, which can lead to parts failure in bad places when the u-bolts go loose from loosing a shim.

Thousands of Cherokees have been successfully lifted with no drive line issues, so have faith that this can be worked out, probably for the price of a pair of perches, obtainable from truck and trailer supply houses, and a few hours of time and effort with torch, grinder, and welder. If you don't have these tools, find someone who does. Lots of time, these changes can be done for the price of a case of brew, and a few hours with a couple of buddies.

If you have access to a digital camera and can post a few shots, why not post some photos for us to see, and perhaps it help to illustrate the problem.

Thanks for all of the info. I will get some photo's up here to show you guys how everything has been set up and maybe you could tell where the problem lays. THANKS AGAIN FOR EVERYTHING!
 

Root Moose

Expedition Leader
Will National 4X4 be able to fix this issue? I have been to three mechanics, one a Jeep Mechanic (Rock Spyder 4X4), the other was a General Mechanic and then finally the drive line specialists (Drive Tech) and none of which can fix this. If National can fix this, Ill be up there in a heart beat!

I don't know.

Your driveline is not something magic that you dreamed up.

Any mechanic with a clue should know what to do with a SYE/DC style driveshaft. This isn't rocket science.
 

bootsnthejeep

New member
I tend to agree with some other mentions on here, what you're attributing to the rear driveshaft vibration could be due to any number of things, but you've just got it in your head that its the rear driveshaft. (No disrespect intended. I've been there and done the same thing. :ylsmoke:)

Anyway, what's been said above about the pinion being pointed at the output of the t-case is dead on. Another thing I'll ask, you mention you've been changing the joints every 2 or 3 ks. What are you replacing the joints with? More Gold Seals from TW, or stuff from Napa (or Canadian Tire in your neck of the woods, perhaps.) Have you ever replaced the retaining straps? Have you ever gotten inside the pinion yoke with a wire brush and REALLY cleaned out the cups where the joint sits? Does the joint 'snap' into place in the pinion yoke, or does it drop in easily? It can't move back and forth AT ALL. It MUST snap into place, maybe even needing a little tap of encouragment.

I work at a driveline shop. I don't go so far as to call myself a "specialist", but this isn't my first rodeo either. Having said that, I've repeatedly seen vibration problems blamed on driveshafts when it was an attaching component that was the problem. And I've been assured over the phone that a pinion yoke "is perfectly fine" only to have them finally bring it in and I can slop the joint back and forth a sixteenth of an inch.

Check that yoke carefully. Make sure there's no rust or whatnot inside the yoke that may be keeping the joint from sitting flat in its cradle. If there is something under the joint, and you torque the straps down, it will not only deform the cap and bind the needles, significantly shortening the life of the joint, but it will also stretch the retaining strap. And if you keep using the same straps over and over, they're never holding the joint down as tightly as they should be.

What are the joints looking like when you take them out? You don't have any pictures, by chance?

Just something to think about. Like you didn't have enough things to look at already. :Wow1:
 

Stumpalump

Expedition Leader
You drove it with a vibration so you wasted U-joints. Only use Dana Spicer U-Joints and next time find a local shop to build any drive shaft. They make them all day long and when somebody comes in with a specialty vehicle that they take pride in then the will take pride in building you a straight shaft. Any shaft with a weight is not straight. A staight shaft needs no or little weight. If you did all the things sugested like removing the front and rear shafts independently and driveing it then remove the rear tires and while its jacked up run it up to the speed. Yes the break drums become missles so remove them also. You may find a tire caused your vibration that way. One thing to always keep in mind when dealing with drive shafts and lifts is that once a u-joint has been run at a specific angle then any change in that angle means you need to change the joint's . Sure you can get by for a while but a u-joint that has changed angles is on borrowed time. Replace those joints with Spicer if your sure all the other things in this thread have been addressed. Good luck... those problems can be a ***** to find.
 

MikeB3815

New member
Im not to sure about the yoke/pinion moving, well it could be that. I have noticed that I do get slight "jerks" when at a dead stop and accelerating (but not hard acceleration) it feels as if though the drive shaft is almost skipping or that there is play at the joint.

I apologize for bringing this thread back from the dead, but this is the first time I've found someone else with these same issues.

Mines an '01 Cherokee 4.0 auto, all stock aside from rear air shocks, but the problem started long before.

I'm experiencing the same drive line vibration, with it being the loudest around 40-50 MPH, as well as the jerking when stopping and accelerating.

I've checked all ujoints and pinion doesn't seem to be loose. I've also hooked up a scanner to watch the transmission shift in hopes it was possibly a bum computer shifting wrong. I have yet to pop open the diff cover to see if the carrier bearings are toast, but that seems too easy. Any suggestions? Is there something I missed in the thread? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

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