Xterra vs Pathfinder - Why Isn't the R51 More Popular As An Expo Rig?

[justcuz]

Since the demise of the Xterra and the BOF Pathfinder, Toyota 4Runner sales have almost doubled. (At just over 100,000 in 2015) The loss of the FJ can be factored into that too, but not as much of an influence as Nissan dropping the Exterra and changing the Pathfinder to a crossover.
The fact is Nissan cannot afford to chase a niche market, Toyota can.
Look at the sales of Ford Explorers since it became a crossover, they are everywhere, selling over 200,000 units a year.
It is sad, but vehicles that fit into the "overlanding" market are not currently a profitable market for manufacturers.
Even Chevy and Ford have no midsize BOF players in the SUV market place right now.

 

[Dalko43]

Since the demise of the Xterra and the BOF Pathfinder, Toyota 4Runner sales have almost doubled. (At just over 100,000 in 2015) The loss of the FJ can be factored into that too, but not as much of an influence as Nissan dropping the Exterra and changing the Pathfinder to a crossover.
The fact is Nissan cannot afford to chase a niche market, Toyota can.
Look at the sales of Ford Explorers since it became a crossover, they are everywhere, selling over 200,000 units a year.
It is sad, but vehicles that fit into the "overlanding" market are not currently a profitable market for manufacturers.
Even Chevy and Ford have no midsize BOF players in the SUV market place right now.

Selling 100k 4runners a year isn't really a niche market IMO.

The market for BOF SUV's and trucks is out there. The Wrangler sells very well still, despite minimal changes/revisions. Ford, Chevy, and Ram don't sell unique BOF SUV's, but they do dominate the pickup market and their sales are well beyond the niche market as well. If Ford or Chevy wanted to, they could use those pickup frames and chassis to build SUV's as well, which they have done in the past, and continue to do to some extent. Also, there is rumor from Ford about the Bronco coming back.

The problem isn't that the market demand is shifting away from BOF SUV's/trucks. The crossover has been around for quite some time now, and if the big manufacturers truly saw no financial incentive to produce BOF trucks/SUV's, they would have stopped by now. The issue is that some manufacturers are struggling on how to meet consumer expectations. The F-150, or the Tacoma, or the current 4runner, don't sell well because of best-in-class fuel economy, or ride quality. They sell well because they're rugged and reliable, which is what those types of buyers are looking for.

Nissan seems to have struggled with their marketing. They flip flopped back and forth on whether their Pathfinder was supposed to be a hardcore, off-road capable BOF truck or a unibody, nice handling crossover. Even their last BOF Pathfinder version seemed to be a compromise of sorts with independent front and rear suspensions.

The Xterra actually sold fairly well in its early years, but Nissan essentially kept it the same for 10 years straight and by the end of those 10 years, its sales numbers had dipped a lot, which is to be expected. I never really had much of an affinity for the pathfinders, at least the newer ones, but I always thought the Xterra was a great 4x4, especially for the price point...it's a shame Nissan didn't try to restart/revise that lineup.

IMO, the BOF trucks/SUV's sell just fine in today's market, but only if the manufacturer fully commits and makes it a robust 4x4, offroad-capable vehicle. The minute you start watering it down and trying to make it more "refined" and enjoyable for soccer mom's and daily commuters is the minute you start losing your market share. Crossovers are a dime-a-dozen nowadays, BOF trucks/SUV's aren't, so people who buy them want the truck experience.

 

[justcuz]

When the Explorer became a crossover their sales went crazy.
Anything much less than 100,000 vehicles a year is considered by the manufacturers to be a specialized market.
4Runners were selling less than half of what they do now when the Xterra, Pathfinder, FJ and other BOF midsize SUV's existed.
Titans and Tundras combined don't even come close to selling the number of pickups the domestics do. If the new Titan does not pick up sales in a couple years, I expect it to die a quiet death.
It is pretty much confirmed that the Ford Wayne, Michigan Plant will be building Ranger pickups and an SUV in the next few years. Look up the Ford Everest, that will probably be the new Bronco. Ford even says they will be coming out with 4 new SUVs in the next few years. Pretty easy to do the math. With increased globalization of platforms, they already have the product in other markets.
GM has a global player in the market too called the Trailblazer, based on the Colorado/Canyon platform, which is an Isuzu.
The only thing that may prevent either one from becoming a reality is if Ford or GM buys Jeep.
The Sergio traveling circus at FCA is winding down and he is still begging for a partner, ain't happening.
Jeep is the most valuable asset FCA has and it will probably get sold to finance more of Sergio's follies with Alfa Romeo.
If Jeep gets sold, the kiddie car SUV's with Fiat platforms will die and the Wrangler in all forms and the Grand Cherokee will be the only survivors.

 

[Dalko43]

When the Explorer became a crossover their sales went crazy.

Sales for the unibody Explorer (which started around 2011 I believe, but correct me if I'm wrong) coincided with Ford's recovery from the 2008-2009 Financial Crisis, when all car sales had taken a serious hit. To say that the switch to unibody construction is the sole reason for the Explorer's spike in sails is to ignore the overall economic context of that time.

Also, the Explorers sales reached an all time peak of 445k in 2000 (when it was still a BOF, based on the Ranger platform), which is about 2x what unibody version has peaked at in 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer

Anything much less than 100,000 vehicles a year is considered by the manufacturers to be a specialized market.

Really? So I guess the Ford Explorer being sold in 2011-2012 should be considered a niche vehicle catering to a specialized market because it wasn't much above 100k sales during those years.


100k sales, or anything in that ballpark, is not a niche vehicle. That's yielding a good chunk of change to the manufacturers and most certainly justifies continuation of that vehicle's mass production.

The LC 200, which barely sells several thousand models a year, is a niche vehicle. The Ferrari 458 is a niche vehicle.

The Toyota 4runner is a mass-produced, highly movable product, and due to that reason there is no way any business strategist is going to consider it a "niche" vehicle.

4Runners were selling less than half of what they do now when the Xterra, Pathfinder, FJ and other BOF midsize SUV's existed.

I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. ~97k 4runners were sold in 2015. The all-time sales peak was ~124k in 1999. The 4runner's sales have stayed consistently around 100k throughout the years, only taking a dip in the 2008-2012 period, which again coincided with the 2008-2009 financial crisis and the sluggish recovery which followed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_4Runner#Sales

Titans and Tundras combined don't even come close to selling the number of pickups the domestics do. If the new Titan does not pick up sales in a couple years, I expect it to die a quiet death.

I'm not sure why you're bringing that issue up or what it has to do with our original conversation? I readily concede that domestic pickups far outsell foreign ones...it has been that way for a while.

It is pretty much confirmed that the Ford Wayne, Michigan Plant will be building Ranger pickups and an SUV in the next few years. Look up the Ford Everest, that will probably be the new Bronco. Ford even says they will be coming out with 4 new SUVs in the next few years. Pretty easy to do the math. With increased globalization of platforms, they already have the product in other markets.
GM has a global player in the market too called the Trailblazer, based on the Colorado/Canyon platform, which is an Isuzu.

Again, not sure where you're going with this comment. I had thought that you argument was the BOF vehicles are dying off due to the increasing popularity of the unibody crossover?

Ford's and GM's decision to make new SUV's based off pre-existing pickup platforms proves my point that there is still a market demand for traditional BOF SUV's, despite crossover sales.

The only thing that may prevent either one from becoming a reality is if Ford or GM buys Jeep.
The Sergio traveling circus at FCA is winding down and he is still begging for a partner, ain't happening.
Jeep is the most valuable asset FCA has and it will probably get sold to finance more of Sergio's follies with Alfa Romeo.
If Jeep gets sold, the kiddie car SUV's with Fiat platforms will die and the Wrangler in all forms and the Grand Cherokee will be the only survivors.

I haven't kept up to date on FCA's activities and strategies, so no comment on this one.

 

[justbecause]

The Toyota Tundra is the most american truck in the world. What does it take to be called Domestic?

I hate that the XD is flopping, I was really excited about that vehicle.


I hope the 4cyl duramax does outstanding. I hope it blows everything else out of the water, and I hope Chevy can work with Isuzu to bring back the Trooper for a triumphant return. BOF with 3rd row seating, sliding back glass. Keep the spare tire hanging proudly off the back door, coil over front suspension with some OEM upper control arms that do not have to be scrapped after 2 inches of lift. Coil spring rear end a standard 3/4 ton rear axle, not the odd ball 12 bolt they used in the past. TOD 2 with crawl control, active traction control, terrain select etc. 2 piece front bumper/grill so adding a bull bar is a simple bolt on process. same for the rear bumper. tuck all the important underbelly parts up into the frame rail.

Makes my pants tight just thinking about it.

 

[Dalko43]

The Toyota Tundra is the most american truck in the world. What does it take to be called Domestic?

I agree. Most, if not all, of the Japanese pickups are actually made here in America, or North America as Mexico has become a popular place to open factories as of late. I think his only point is that its a foreign company which makes them.

 

[Nd4SpdSe]

I've got as friend who wheels one. He's put in airbags in the coils in the back to handle loads, and made his own custom skid plates., He's even taken it to Rausch Creek. I have seen one locally that looks like it had a body lift on it.

Reviving an old thread, but actually popped up at the 3rd result in my Google search for some information.

My 2003 Supercharged 4x4 5MT, after 14 years of ownership and 19 years of Canadian life, the frame has started to show it's age and was time to look for a new truck. Although that she took it like a champ, I realised that I was constantly overworking the truck with the towing I do, I realistically needed something more. I also had many friends and family tell me to look at other options, but I loved my gen1 truck. I never felt the gen2 X was better. Has more storage but the the engine isn't the low down torque monster like the gen1 the manual transmission is more finicky where you can feel the gen1's trans comes straight from the 300ZX that you can bang through the gears with pleasure. Combining with a proper throttle cable and great pedal placement. I'm also not a pickup person and the SUV body is much more practical for me. Toyota's were more then I wanted to spend.

After a year or looking and people not wanting to deal with me because of shipping a vehicle, specially internationally, I had taken a hiatus until I saw a truck pop-up on MarketPlace; a V8 Pathfinder. I had forgot about the R51 and even more-so that they had a V8. After a test drive of it (a 2011 USA import) I really liked the truck and was mechanically sound but found this one was in rough shape for the price. After never getting his mechanics report I decided to pass on it but looked around the country. Canada only ever having the V8 for 2008 (and only in 4x4 LE) makes it a hard truck to find, but I did find one in excellent shape out in British Columbia. After getting it inspected by a very reputable Nissan dealership that was literally across the street, I went ahead and purchase it. Arranged to have it shipped 5000km to my door. She only needed a ball joint, 2 wheel bearings and both rear shocks to have it pass local inspection to plate it here in Quebec. She does have 230'000kms on it and did experience SMOD in it's past life, but was fixed with a new transmission back in 2016 at 140'000kms. At least I know it's been done properly and not someone who tried to hide it and issues pop up later. Engine and trans both are great and after 5000kms including some towing, doesn't even burn a drop of oil and is still golden clean. I almost feel spoiled in this truck. I'll miss having a manual, but for the V8 it's worth it. And also for all the towing I do.

I've only had it for a few months and have a long list of to-do mods, including AirLift bags that arrived this week, but I'm going through a career transition and also waiting to sell the X (or partout) before I start on the R51. And it's also winter and my garage isn't heated. The last off-road trip I did with her was back in September 2019 and on the one trail I was able to go much more without aid over a Rubicon Wrangler and a Titan-Swapped Pro-4X Xterra with a rear locker. It might be truck or it might be driver but also didn't help on not being sold on a gen2 Xterra. I also understand the downside of the R51's IRS and think for what I do that one of the first major mods will be a front and rear locker. I built my X with a very flexible rear suspension, especially for the open diff (never got to install air lockers) but with the IRS if I can't keep the tires planted I can at least work to keep power to the ones that are. Having wheels with a manual with all these years, pairing lockers with an automatic and the V8 I gather I should go further then my old X did, but also while doing it much easier. Remains to be seen. It's not going overseas nor will be a full overland vehicle and also be setup as a jack-of-all-trades off-roader, overlander, tow rig, work truck, people mover, etc.