Optima Battery Problems

[OptimaJim]

bob91yj, what is the typical voltage of your BlueTop and what size are you using?
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Jim, I've extended an offer to you to validate the truth in what I have posted, including the credentials of our engineer. The fact that you have ignored that offer indicates to me your intent in posting in this thread is not to solve the issues with your vehicle, but to bash Optima and our products. If that is your choice, I am fine with that and I certainly won't ask anyone to lock this thread or make it go away. I've never done that in any conversation I've participated in, as I would prefer these exchanges remain open for people to view and reach their own conclusions.
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J.W., we manufacture all of our batteries in this facility. I am not involved in the corporate decisions JCI's Power Solutions Division makes, but if you would like to make an inquiry, you can send an e-mail to info@optimabatteries.com
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There are so many chargers on the market, it is quite possible that someone (or even multiple companies) have made AGM-specific chargers or chargers with an AGM specific mode. dwh is correct that there are chargers that offer “gel” specific settings, as well as chargers with AGM-specific settings and even “gel/AGM” settings, which should be avoided on non-gel batteries.
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The low voltage issue he referenced regarding Optima is not unique to our batteries at all. In fact, it is commonplace amongst AGM manufacturers. Some manufacturers have dealt with this issue by simply voiding the warranty on their batteries, if they are measured below a minimum voltage level, which is a legitimate concern for someone using batteries in a deep-cycle application. We didn't do that with our warranty and as a result, many of the “bad” batteries returned to us are just deeply-discharged. We did create the parallel charging video dwh referenced, in an effort to help folks recover their batteries and prevent unnecessary returns.
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Some newer chargers will recognize and charge a battery that has been deeply-discharged well below 10 volts, but many older chargers will not. The procedure explained in that video will allow those older chargers to recharge a deeply-discharged battery. Dave, our batteries can be treated and maintained just like any other lead-acid battery. However, when any AGM battery is deeply-discharged, some chargers may not recognize or charge the battery. If someone is able to maintain proper voltage battery (and the vast majority of our customers do), they will never need to do anything out of the ordinary to maintain their batteries.
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The state of charge of a SLI battery (like our RedTop) differs slightly from a battery designed for deep-cycle use, like our YellowTop. While 12.5 volts in our RedTops would indicate about a 75% state of charge, 12.5 volts in a YellowTop indicates about a 65% state of charge. At 12.11 volts, a YellowTop is at about a 40% state of charge. Our YellowTops are considered to be at 0% state of charge at about 11.27 volts, but many batteries can be discharged well beyond that point. I may have mentioned it already in this thread, but it is not uncommon for our sponsored anglers to come off the water with batteries discharged well into the single digits.
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I cannot speak for other charger manufacturers, but anyone who cares to get a data logger can see the differences in charging profiles for our various charger settings, including our OPTIMA-specific settings and our general flooded/AGM settings. Michael, we do not sell CTEK chargers, but if you can post a link that would indicate otherwise, I'd appreciate it. Likewise, Optima does not officially endorse any specific chargers (other than our own).
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Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[Overbear]

So Jim,

Address my problems, the fact that I have outright killed 5 optimas in the last 7-9 years but a diehard platnum continues to run after 2 of the 7-9 year span, and shows no sign of death even thou I have hammered on it twice as hard as any of the optima batteries?

If you want, I have 3-4 of the dead optima's left, you pay for the shipping you can have them, they are just trash sitting in the back yard waiting for me to get off my lazy butt and take them in for recycle.

 

[teotwaki]

-----SNIPPITY-SNIP-----
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Jim, I've extended an offer to you to validate the truth in what I have posted, including the credentials of our engineer. The fact that you have ignored that offer indicates to me your intent in posting in this thread is not to solve the issues with your vehicle, but to bash Optima and our products. If that is your choice, I am fine with that and I certainly won't ask anyone to lock this thread or make it go away. I've never done that in any conversation I've participated in, as I would prefer these exchanges remain open for people to view and reach their own conclusions.
-----SNIPPITY-SNIP OF MULTI-QUOTE CLUTTER-----

If it was an open exchange you'd let the Optima "engineer" post here rather than your ploy to filter the supposed emails. As I pointed out earlier you have quoted him/her with conflicting statements but you sidestep those sorts of things and label them as "Optima bashing". You bash me with false charges of "selective quoting" or "dangerous" advice but you are now leveling charges of "bashing" against me. Oh please.

DWH has contibuted far more in a short time than you ever have in your thousands of posts about the state-of-the-art-factory in Mexico. You'll note that he is not taking sides for or against me, often disagrees and is sharing his own experience and knowledge freely. At least we are having a technical conversation without a paid corporate firewall in the middle.

No one is silencing you but I'd rather you place your repetitive advertising in the Expo banners where the Portal can make some money off of it. If you can ever approach half of DWH has done for free I'd be impressed.

 

[teotwaki]

--Snipped excellent list of other DC-DC products______

Okay, my bad. you didn't say it about DC-DC chargers, you said it about solenoids. It wasn't correct in either case - neither one switches the alternator's output.

Also, your comment above about the DC-DC charger is incorrect. The primary battery is not isolated from the alternator. The DC-DC charger draws its input from the primary bus, which is getting its power from the alternator. As the DC-DC charger draws down the voltage of the primary bus, the alternator fires up to replenish it.

Ergo, the secondary bus (and battery) is *dependant* on the primary bus (and battery), not *INdependant* of it.

See edit below on Smartpass. The manual's diagrams must be right.

As for the solenoid bit, I do think that I have seen it somewhere. Maybe I got it wrong and it was homebuilt, but I recall that I did not want to cut into the alternator harness on my truck for that solution.

Thanks for the great list of DC-DC solutions! I want to add them all to the Solar FAQ

EDIT: Smartpass & 250S Dual manual http://smartercharger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/manual-d250s-dual-and-smartpass.pdf

Confusing to read. I'm confused now. They speak of controlling the alternator supply and sperating the batteries but in the actual diagrams the alternator is still hard wired to the starter battery. For another $250 it is dubious how much value is achieved.

 

[teotwaki]

So Jim,

Address my problems, the fact that I have outright killed 5 optimas in the last 7-9 years but a diehard platnum continues to run after 2 of the 7-9 year span, and shows no sign of death even thou I have hammered on it twice as hard as any of the optima batteries?

If you want, I have 3-4 of the dead optima's left, you pay for the shipping you can have them, they are just trash sitting in the back yard waiting for me to get off my lazy butt and take them in for recycle.

Face it, you are simply Optima "bashing" LOL :snorkel:

 

[Michael]

Optima Jim: Here is the reference to Optima selling CTEK chargers. I now notice however, that the website is from Optima in Australia but I'm presuming that Optima batteries are the same worldwide, correct?

teotwaki: The manual also covers the Smartpass, which is essentially an isolator/12V bus manager for higher capacity systems (probably marine applications). I did not see the value in the Smartpass for my system and do not use it. The 250s works fine as a stand-alone isolator/charger unit.

 

[Overbear]

Face it, you are simply Optima "bashing" LOL :snorkel:

I must be :facepalm:

Really I am looking forward to his answer to a real world experence. I didn't test the batteries in a lab, I didn't put them in a perfect controled test. I ran them hard like they are advertised and they could not keep up with the simple demands of some rockcrawling, winching, and running my OBA system. Time after time (5 times) I watched them burn down to the point they would no longer hold a charge, and like an idiot I kept buying new ones thinking "oh its a fluke" ... well Jim, how about it, some answers.

Like I said, you want to see them, I have most of them sitting in the back yard. Your welcome to send a rep to pick the piles of crap up.

 

[HenryJ]

...Your welcome to send a rep to pick the piles of crap up.

Get a picture of the tag and the burn code if it has one. Their rep took mine and even though I had a receipt showing its purchase in the last two years, I received a call saying the battery they received was ten years old and beyond the normal service life. Re-badged old stock by the local retailer was their answer. End of story.

 

[Overbear]

Oh I am sure they are all old stock by now, they have sat back there for..oh...4 years now, somthing like that. The truck was down 2 years before I put the diehard platnum in it, I was working on beefing up the welds on the rock bars and that massive bumper.

 

[OptimaJim]

Overbear, if you have killed five batteries in the last 7-9 nine years, were none of them eligible for warranty replacement? Jim, I don't care who gives you the advice you need to solve your issues. If you'd rather listen to advice from dwh, I'm happy to let him provide it.
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Michael, thanks for providing that link. That website is owned by one of our retailers in Australia and is not part of Optima's corporate website. That retailer is able to recommend and/or sell chargers and maintainers, just as Autozone or O'Reilly's would here, but that does not imply endorsement by Optima as a company.
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Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[Michael]

Optima Jim: When I noticed that the website was in Australia, I thought that might be the case and I understand your response. That an Australian outfit is selling the CTEK chargers implies only that they in particular apparently think CTEK chargers work well with Optima batteries. From discussions on the many Australian off-road forums, the down-under guys apparently have good success with your batteries. So -- all in all -- it is a good data point to have. I'm going to send optimabatteries.com.au an email asking about their experience with CTEK chargers and I'll share their response. I've also sent a query to CTEK asking about the voltage and current levels of their chargers in reference to my use with my particular Optima battery.

I still have my original question however. I understand that Optima understandably does not endorse any particular charging system. I'm a customer and I'm asking if a specific smart charger, the CTEK D250s Dual, is suitable for use with a specific Optima battery, the D31T Yellow Top. I'd appreciate it if you or your tech staff could review the compatibility of the two products based on their experience to help me with the proper use and care of your product.

As I mentioned earlier, I've had good experiences with the Optima Yellow Top line. I recently installed a CTEK D250s Dual which I'm now evaluating for long term use. So far, the 250s seems to be doing a good job maintaining a higher state of charge in my aux battery in comparison to my previous use of an automatic charging relay.

I'm looking for customer info here, not to fan any flames :26_7_2:

 

[dwh]

See edit below on Smartpass. The manual's diagrams must be right.

EDIT: Smartpass & 250S Dual manual http://smartercharger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/manual-d250s-dual-and-smartpass.pdf

Confusing to read. I'm confused now. They speak of controlling the alternator supply and sperating the batteries but in the actual diagrams the alternator is still hard wired to the starter battery. For another $250 it is dubious how much value is achieved.

When I asked you to post the link, that's not the charger you linked to...



But no matter. The CTEK setup in that .pdf is not a typical DC-DC charger. It looks to be a dual-bank MPPT solar charge controller which can charge both batteries from the solar - plus the addition of a DC-DC charger to charge the secondary battery from the primary (when the alternator is running).

Either the starting battery or the aux battery (what they call service) can be rigged as the primary (charged directly from the alternator). Whichever one is smaller gets rigged as primary, so it gets a full charge first, then the other is DC-DC charged from the <alternator+primary battery> as well as solar if available.


The Smartpass add-on adds some functionality.

Mainly, it adds the ability to backfeed power from the secondary to the primary, thereby charging the primary (when the alternator is not running) either from the solar, or from a mains powered charger connected on the secondary side. The manual says it does "pulse charging" of the primary...so I get a feeling it's not doing a 3-stage charge routine on the primary; It's possibly just doing a PWM at float charge voltage on the primary.

Another feature added by the Smartpass is an LVD (low-voltage disconnect) to protect the secondary battery from over-discharge by non-critical loads. You connect non-critical loads (what they call consumers) such as a fridge to the LVD and connect critical loads (such as a radio) straight to the secondary battery.


Personally, I would want to see a lot more technical info about those units before I could decide if it was worth me buying them. I.e., voltage set points, LVD set point, specifics about the charge routines of solar->primary and secondary->primary, etc.

 

[teotwaki]

Hi DWH!

The DC-DC charger that I first linked to is the only one that I knew about at the time that you first asked. The CTEK came up after that in the last few posts and alluded to some tantalizing advantages. Getting clear descriptions on that one is frustrating. A lot of posts in Aussie off road forums at least offer actual experience but the CTEK docs are frustrating. The value of the SmartPass is hard to judge, especially since it doubles your costs.

 

[teotwaki]

----------Selective Snipping------- Jim, I don't care who gives you the advice you need to solve your issues. If you'd rather listen to advice from dwh, I'm happy to let him provide it.--------Snippity-SNIP-----[/url]

DWH is freely giving advice. I appreciate his efforts to help out.

 

[teotwaki]

----------SNIP----------

As I mentioned earlier, I've had good experiences with the Optima Yellow Top line. I recently installed a CTEK D250s Dual which I'm now evaluating for long term use. So far, the 250s seems to be doing a good job maintaining a higher state of charge in my aux battery in comparison to my previous use of an automatic charging relay.

I'm looking for customer info here, not to fan any flames :26_7_2:

Your setup is exactly what I am interested in: if the CTEK offers an advantage over a solenoid that is simply placing the second of two batteries across the alternator. The CTEK is essentially decoupling the second battery from whatever charge regime the alternator follows and the CTEK instead provides charging based only upon what is senses that only the second battery needs. (or something like that?) DWH is better at this stuff.

As long as you construct a stout wall of happy postings about Optimas you should be safe from corporate repression.

Michael--->eepwall::mixed-smiley-030:<---OJ