Range Rover axles on Series IIa

[Toy-Roverlander]

Hi folks.

The idea of fitting Range Rover axles to my IIa has been floating through my mind for a while. Last year I bought an old heap of a Rangie for a carton of beer, so that's a good start.

I took the axles off and grinded off everything that has to do with coil suspension. Then I stripped them completely. One swivelball was fine, the other was replaced.
I replaced everything, swivelball, swivel pins, bearings, swivel seals, wheelbearings and hubseals.

Then I went to Africa for 2months so the axles got stored till I got back.

A couple of days ago, when out on a drive, I braked a bit harder than I usually do and it pulled to the right. Quite badly too.
At that point I made the decision to fit the Rangie axles asap. I've had it with those stupid crappy drum brakes. It's all been renewed less than 3years ago and it has never worked properly. So this was the last straw.
No more brake drums with no booster....

So I pulled the axles out of storage, ordered some more parts I needed (I'll be fitting parabolics up front and new U-bolts and shackle bolts and such all round) and finished of what I should have done last year. Refurbishing the calipers.

So that's what I've been doing the last couple of days, fitting new seals and stainless steel pistons to the calipers, fitting the Rangie booster and M/C to the SeriesIII pedal unit and fitting the calipers to the axles together with new copper brake pipes and goodrich hoses.

The axles are nearly ready to be fitted to the 109". All I need to do now is make the spring mounts that need to be welded onto the axle and the rear shockabsorber mountings too.


The only problem with Rangie axles is the fact that the trackrod wants to go through the leaf springs. There are some solutions for this problem, some of them good, some of them bad.
I've choosen for the safe option, making the spring mounts a bit taller. This way the trackrod will clear the top of the springs easily and this way no welding to the trackrod or whatever is needed.

And for that reason I'll be fitting parabolics to the front axle. As the spring mount will be around an inch taller than usual, the front would drop an inch.
Now with para's I will gain an inch, instead of 2 as I loose 1inch.

The rear springs are supersoft sagged stationwagon springs so I'll be keeping those. I did order new ones as I want to replace the main, 2nd, 6th and 7th leaf. This will raise the back end slightly, and together with one-ton shackles the back will end up slightly higher than the front.
The rear springs are completely flat at the moment, but the Landy still sits level as the front mount is lowered 3cm and the rear turret is 5cm talles than normal. So with flat springs it sits level, hence I don't want to fit para's to the rear axle as this will raise the rear too much.
I've got massive flex from these flat springs as it quite badly reverse arches, so I've got some extra suspension travel . It's got so much bump travel that the wheel (a 7.50) hits the wheelwell while the axle still sits an inch from the bumpstop, and droop is so much that the top of the wheel comes down to the bottom of the sills.

Anyway, with the Rangie axles I'll get more articulation (wider axles and front para's), a better turning circle and best of all, DISC BRAKES!!!!! Awesome!!

Here's some pics of the axles.


Hopefully all the stuffed I ordered from the UK will come in tomorrow, then I can start first thing next monday.

Here's a little list I have to do.

- take front wings, bonnet and bullbar off
- get rid of current brake M/C and pedal unit, including clutch unit and M/C
- fit the new pedal unit with booster and M/C, including new clutch M/C
- remove rear axle and springs
- take springs apart and reassemble with new leafs in old spring pack
- fit spring mounts, springs and U bolts to axle and trial fit to get prop angle right, adjust spring mount as necessary. Also do shock mounts.
- remove axle and fully weld spring and shock mounts, rustproof/paint axle
- fit rear axle and springs

- remove front axle and springs as one unit
- fit spring mounts, u bolts and para's to axle
- trial fit axle and adjust spring mounts as necessary to get proper castor angle. (prop angle will be of, but not a problem on a mate's 88" with Def axles, and his has para's with one-ton shackles. The lift on mine is less and the propshaft is about 10inch longer due to Toyota engine/transmission)
- remove axle and fully weld spring mounts, rustproof/paint axle
- refit axle.

- fit all brakepipes and connect the whole bunch up, including vacuum hose
- bleed brakes, check for leaks
- refit bonnet, wings, bullbar

- GO AND ENJOY THE NEW PROPER BRAKES!!!!!!!


Quite a project, but very much worth it!!

:sombrero:

Koos

 

[revor]

Nice!
I'll be considering the same thing for my 88" (when I get it)
Have you considered the caster angle of the Coiler steering? Something that might help is the fact that as stock the pinion of the Coiler diff points up a bit where in stock form a Series pinion is parallel to the ground.
When you weld your spring mounts to the axle housing be sure to consider the caster, if you set it up for -3 degrees (which is stock) you might be pleasantly surprized to find the pinion is pointing up and rotating the steering up along with it!

 

[Toy-Roverlander]

Nice!
I'll be considering the same thing for my 88" (when I get it)
Have you considered the caster angle of the Coiler steering? Something that might help is the fact that as stock the pinion of the Coiler diff points up a bit where in stock form a Series pinion is parallel to the ground.
When you weld your spring mounts to the axle housing be sure to consider the caster, if you set it up for -3 degrees (which is stock) you might be pleasantly surprized to find the pinion is pointing up and rotating the steering up along with it!

Yup, have thought about caster, a lot. I'll keep it the same as on a coiler. I noticed that the swivel pin inclination is 7 degrees (that's easily measured right next to it with an inclinometer) so that will be kept the same, or maybe a degree more so the diff nose drops a little bit.

That's the only problem with coiler axles.

A mate of mine has a lifted 88" on Defender axles, and has the right caster, and we didn't notice any prop vibrations at all. And his 88" sits a lot taller than my 109". My front prop is about 10inches longer, so the angles are less. I don't expect to many problems.

What do you mean with that it will rotate the steering up with it? You mean the trackrod I assume? Less castor creates more clearance for the track rod, but that'll give a negative effect on handling. Increasing castor (So that the diff will sit horizontal) gives very poor handling.
I'll stick to stock caster

:sombrero:

Koos

 

[Snagger]

The standard castor angle on a Series axle is 3 degrees, and I'm fairly certain that it's the same on the coilers.

The position of track rod is a problem for this conversion (I have a Discovery front axle in the garage in waiting for the same conversion, and will be buying the 4-pin P38 type diff rear axle from a TD5 110). You need taller spring seats to lift the track rod above the spring, and it needs to be sufficiently high that it clears the spring even when it's at its maximum curvature (which is greater than on standard springs because of parabolics' greater static curve and flexibility). What I plan to do is sit the axle on non-welded spring seats with the axle sitting on the springs while fitted to the vehicle. With the weight of the axle on them, this should ensure that the springs are at their greatest curvature. I can then fiddle around with measuring clearances and castor angles before welding the seats to the axle.

Like I said, parabolics have greater curvature than standard leaves, and so need a greater clearance between the spring and track rod when the weight is on the springs. That means that any extra ride height from the parabolics may be off set by the deeper seats. One way around this might be to use longer shackles on the back of the spring, rotating the back of the spring down and away from the track rod, allowing taller seats without losing the separation between the axle and chassis. This would mean that the seats are welded on at a slight angle - instead of the seats being horizontal and having an angle of incidence from the swivels of 3 degrees, the seats will be sloping down towards the back, so the angle of incidence might be nil or even in the opposite direction. I think it'll work well, though, as long as you don't go for excessively long shackles.

As for the rear, the diff pinion is horizontal, so setting the new spring seats on the axle should be relatively straight forward. However, using 1-ton shackles does rotate the spring in the same way as I was suggesting for the front and will move the pinion axis off horizontal. I think most people suffer little ill-effect from that when using standard springs, but those with parabolics run into prop vibration when using these shackles on a standard chassis, so it might be worth welding the spring seats in a position that will set the pinion parallel to the gear box axis after the long shackles have been fitted.

I'd love to see some more detail of the work on the front axle mountings as you go along, and any measurements and clearances from the springs - it'll be a big help for when I get round to the same work.

 

[TeriAnn]

Since you guys are in Europe where Defenders are commonplace, why not just cut off the front of your Series Frame and weld in the front of a Defender frame? All your steering geometry and clearance issues would be instantly solved. There were a lot of American truck & 4X4 models running around with coils up front and leaf springs in the rear. Why not a Series truck?

It seems to me like it would be a whole lot less effort than that you are currently doing and a lot less engineering and less fingers crossed hoping that everything will work together and be as stable as stock.

Just a thought.

 

[I Leak Oil]

Teriann, I've been thinking about making a coiler front, leafer rear for a long time now. Would solve so many issues that a stock leafer front has. Better ride, better articulation, discs, power steering, CV jointed front end. Hmmm....so many projects, so little time!
Jason T.

 

[Toy-Roverlander]

The standard castor angle on a Series axle is 3 degrees, and I'm fairly certain that it's the same on the coilers.

The position of track rod is a problem for this conversion (I have a Discovery front axle in the garage in waiting for the same conversion, and will be buying the 4-pin P38 type diff rear axle from a TD5 110). You need taller spring seats to lift the track rod above the spring, and it needs to be sufficiently high that it clears the spring even when it's at its maximum curvature (which is greater than on standard springs because of parabolics' greater static curve and flexibility). What I plan to do is sit the axle on non-welded spring seats with the axle sitting on the springs while fitted to the vehicle. With the weight of the axle on them, this should ensure that the springs are at their greatest curvature. I can then fiddle around with measuring clearances and castor angles before welding the seats to the axle.

Like I said, parabolics have greater curvature than standard leaves, and so need a greater clearance between the spring and track rod when the weight is on the springs. That means that any extra ride height from the parabolics may be off set by the deeper seats. One way around this might be to use longer shackles on the back of the spring, rotating the back of the spring down and away from the track rod, allowing taller seats without losing the separation between the axle and chassis. This would mean that the seats are welded on at a slight angle - instead of the seats being horizontal and having an angle of incidence from the swivels of 3 degrees, the seats will be sloping down towards the back, so the angle of incidence might be nil or even in the opposite direction. I think it'll work well, though, as long as you don't go for excessively long shackles.

As for the rear, the diff pinion is horizontal, so setting the new spring seats on the axle should be relatively straight forward. However, using 1-ton shackles does rotate the spring in the same way as I was suggesting for the front and will move the pinion axis off horizontal. I think most people suffer little ill-effect from that when using standard springs, but those with parabolics run into prop vibration when using these shackles on a standard chassis, so it might be worth welding the spring seats in a position that will set the pinion parallel to the gear box axis after the long shackles have been fitted.

I'd love to see some more detail of the work on the front axle mountings as you go along, and any measurements and clearances from the springs - it'll be a big help for when I get round to the same work.

That's exactly what I'm planning on doing. I'll be effectively clamping the spring seats in between the axle and the spring so that I can make adjustments with the wheels on the ground and the weight of the vehicle on it. This way I can make sure there's enough clearance and that the caster angle is correct.
I'll be doing the same to the rear, but only to make sure the propshaft angles are spot on.

My plan has changed a little. Instead of keeping the old rear springs and fitting new leafs in the springpack and fitting one-ton shackles, I'll be fitting 3leaf parabolics. Reason is that this morning I had a close look at the springs and they're in a pretty bad shape.
The leafs are not straight anymore, they are like a double S-shape from all the reverse arching. And some leafs have been half rubbed through by the underlying leaf. I would need to change so many leafs in the pack that I might as well fit a new spring. So I opted for the parabolics. Reason I went for a 3leaf instead of a 4leaf is that the latter will raise the rear too much.
The 3leaf will be compressed more by the weight and so will not sit as high.

I had a talk about fitting RR axles to a Series with a collegue of mine (he runs a workshop that does radical modifications, he's very knowledgeable) and he said I needed a 22mm spacer to have the trackrod clear the springs.
IIRC the curvature is indeed larger but shaped differently, in that it's a bit more horizontal near the axle and than comes up sharply towards the mounts. But don't quote me on that, it might depend on who made them..

It is indeed an option to fit longer shackles to get the extra height back and to have that point of the axle pointing downwards a bit.
I'll have to see what the rear end will do with the para's. I don't want the hot-rod look, but I don't know of the rears will sag a lot or not. I'll wait and see.

Since you guys are in Europe where Defenders are commonplace, why not just cut off the front of your Series Frame and weld in the front of a Defender frame? All your steering geometry and clearance issues would be instantly solved. There were a lot of American truck & 4X4 models running around with coils up front and leaf springs in the rear. Why not a Series truck?

It seems to me like it would be a whole lot less effort than that you are currently doing and a lot less engineering and less fingers crossed hoping that everything will work together and be as stable as stock.
Just a thought.

Uhm, I'm not really a fan of coil suspension to be honest. I like leafsprings
It's actually not that difficult or complicated to do the swap, I think it would be more work, and more involved to go that route. You could also just weld on all the coil suspension stuff to the Series chassis, I think that would be easier.
With some simple mods you can get insane articulation from the front leafspring setup anyway if you want.

Also it would create a bit of a legal problem in my case.
To keep historical status (and so free road tax) 2/3rd of the vehicle needs to be original. This can be the following:
- chassis and driveline original / body can be whatever you like
- chassis and body original/ driveline can be whatever you like

So the chassis had to be original. Small alterations are not really a problem, but as soon as you start adding coil suspension you could loose the historic vehicle status and that wouldn't be good. (roadtax is EXPENSIVE!!, I would have to pay €1772,- a year on roadtax.. That's a lot..


The only downside is, this morning I found out that there's a 7-10 day delay as the springs were in backorder. So There's not much I can do now but wait.....

I'll keep you'll posted...




Koos

 

[Snagger]

Teriann - modifying my chassis would lose the vehicle identity under UK vehicle laws, so I'd lose the registration number, the VIN and its road tax exemption (UK vehicles are taxed every year, except those constructed before 1973). I'm also very hapy with leaf springs and like their simplicity. As Toyrover said, though, it'd be easier to modifiy the existing chassis to suit coil suspension than to graft on a Defender's front chassis.

 

[Toy-Roverlander]

As the weather today was a bit colder (still sunny though) I decided to get back to it.

I've finished making the spring mounts for the rear axle, plus the shockabsorber mounts. All I need to do is drill the holes for the centerbolt in the springpack and the hole for the shock mounting pin. As I didn't know the size I'll do that later.

Last week, when lying under the Landy to look at the springmounts and stuff I noticed that my rear springs are really dead. They're seriously bulging, not from rust, but from reverse arching. The leaves only touch each other under the axle and near the ends. You can just through the gaps between the leaves. I'll take a piccie of this soon..

My initial plan was to replace the main, 2nd, 6th and 7th leaf out of the pack with new ones. But as all the leaves are really bad I would have to change the whole spring. So I decided for parabolics on the back as well. So I rang my supplier to tell them I wanted the parabolics instead of the multi-leaf springs. And that I wanted the 3leaf ones. And what did they send me? The 4 leaf springs.... :-\
But this is actually not too bad.....

It only took me about 10 minutes to take the springpacks apart and remove the 3rd leaf. So now I have 3 leaf springs...
And when the springs settle, or it sags too much, I'll put the 3rd leaf back in. Easy as that!

I still don't have the front springs, so I still can't do anything......

Here's 2 piccies of the stuff I made today. Those 4 square plates are for the front and back of the springmount, to close them up.

:good day

Koos

 

[Snagger]

Very nice, Koos.

I spoke to dave Ashcroft today to ask which rear axle is stronger, especially given the usual rear-wheel drive of a Series: the 110 Dalisbury or the 2002+ P38 diff 110 axles. He didn't even pause to think, coming back with a 100% positive "Salisbury" answer. So, I'll be looking for a 300 Tdi or early TD5 110 rear axle. At least it also means I can continue to use standard rear prop shafts, SIII 109s already having Salisbury axles. I may cut the spring mounts and damper brackets od my second hand 109 Salisbury axle - no one seems to want it, even though I advertised it on a fewUk forums for free.

I had a play with that ambulance anti roll bar and found it will fit by camping it to the chassis imediately behind the bump stops and by switching the bottom plates below the springs around, so that the vertical links are infront of the axle instead of behind, as normally done on the ambulances. That way, the bar clear the diff and the fuel tank, while the vertical links will sit outboard of the dampers. It even clears the exhaust this way around, saving me time an money that would have been needed for a new tail pipe. I just need to have the brackets that fit directly to the chassis made up (the brackets that the D-bush clamps bolt onto).

Ther reason the 109 was up on ramps was to rplace the rear spring bushes. Unfortunately, one of the springs seems to have slightly stretched eyes - the bushes aren't as tight in there as they should be. Still, they've been on there for 12 years and have covered over 100,000 miles which is excellent for parabolics. I have e-mailed Paul Heystee enquirng about the cost of a set of four top leaves to refubish my springs - I can't afford a full TIC set and think they're repairable, but have doubts over most other brands' comparitive quality.

 

[Toy-Roverlander]

Very nice, Koos.

I spoke to dave Ashcroft today to ask which rear axle is stronger, especially given the usual rear-wheel drive of a Series: the 110 Dalisbury or the 2002+ P38 diff 110 axles. He didn't even pause to think, coming back with a 100% positive "Salisbury" answer. So, I'll be looking for a 300 Tdi or early TD5 110 rear axle. At least it also means I can continue to use standard rear prop shafts, SIII 109s already having Salisbury axles. I may cut the spring mounts and damper brackets od my second hand 109 Salisbury axle - no one seems to want it, even though I advertised it on a fewUk forums for free.

I had a play with that ambulance anti roll bar and found it will fit by camping it to the chassis imediately behind the bump stops and by switching the bottom plates below the springs around, so that the vertical links are infront of the axle instead of behind, as normally done on the ambulances. That way, the bar clear the diff and the fuel tank, while the vertical links will sit outboard of the dampers. It even clears the exhaust this way around, saving me time an money that would have been needed for a new tail pipe. I just need to have the brackets that fit directly to the chassis made up (the brackets that the D-bush clamps bolt onto).

Ther reason the 109 was up on ramps was to rplace the rear spring bushes. Unfortunately, one of the springs seems to have slightly stretched eyes - the bushes aren't as tight in there as they should be. Still, they've been on there for 12 years and have covered over 100,000 miles which is excellent for parabolics. I have e-mailed Paul Heystee enquirng about the cost of a set of four top leaves to refubish my springs - I can't afford a full TIC set and think they're repairable, but have doubts over most other brands' comparitive quality.

Yes, no doubt that the Salisbury is the stronger one. I didn't want it because it's harder to swap diffs around (or change R&P's) and I would need to shorten the propshaft (again....) and that's about €125. And as I got the Range Rover for practically nothing, why would I bother finding a Salisbury.
Eventually I want to fit a locker and stronger half shafts, so the rear will be strong enough. I would love to fit a KAM locker, but I don't think they do them in 24V, only 12V.

When you go and cut the mounts off the old axle, try something else than an angle grinder. Today I got reminded how hard it is to cut out round shapes with a grinder.... Oxy will be easier!

I saw your other post about the stabilizer bar. Its looking good! That should help reduce bodyroll a fair bit. That looks like a neat fit.
Are those spacers under the bumpstop original? I was thinking about doing the same, but if those fancy polybush extended bumpstops are not too expensive, I might just get 2 of those.

I contacted Paul to see if I could get a LevelD kit for my 109", but I couldn't afford it. He hasn't got any in stock either. I agree, this is the absolute best quality you can get, although it comes at a price.
What bushes do you have? Couldn't it be that the polybushes are worn and thus loose in the spring eye?

I opted for the cheap nasty parabolics. Several reasons for that.
First of all, they're a lot cheaper. And If I need to replace rear springs in 3 years time, fine.
I've never heard of one breaking, the only bad things I read about them is that they sag, even after only a couple of months.
This is, in my case, actually not a bad thing. My rear suspension mounting points are in a different position than any other Series. The front mountings are 3cm lower and the rear turret is 5cm taller. So with my flat springs it sits level. If I fit para's, which are about 4cm taller, the rear will get lifted by as much as 4inches over stock. (remember, it sits level with FLAT springs).
That will be too much, hence I took the 3rd leaf out of the 4leaf para's, this will reduce spring rate and lets them compress more than a 4leaf. This will ensure it doesn't get lifted too much. The 3leaf will probably sag under the weight of this heavy 109", and that's when I can always refit the 3rd leaf that I took out..


Now, hopefully I get my front springs in soon so I can get cracking

Koos

 

[Snagger]

My bump stops are standard 1-Ton: there is a steel sandwich unit between the chassis plate and the normal rubber block. It's made that way for commonality (no need for special rubber molds) and so that the extension section can be removed if the suspension is dropped onto standard height - 1-Tons have hangers for the front of each spring with two sets of bolt holes; the upper holes are for standard ride height and would be used in conjunction with standard shackles, while the lower holes are about 1.5-2" lower down and are used with long shackles to allow the normal 1-Ton fitment of 9.00 tyres.

I don't use polybushes - I don't trust them. I think they allow too much movement, allow dirt ingress and if they fail, the inner steel sleeve will rub directly against the spring or chassis eye. All these mean they wear the spring or chassis. I'd only consider polybushes if they had the same cosntruction as the standard bonded rubber bushes, with firmly attached inner and outer steel sleeves that exclude all dirt and prevent any relative movement against the spring or chassis.

I sounds like you have good reasons behind going for the cheaper springs. I may yet get a Rocky Mountain set - they have a good reputation, second only to TIC, and I was quoted £355 (incl VAT) for a full HD spring set, when stock comes in. I also know someone who is developping a new parabolic brand and set, and he asked me if I'd do extended trials on them once they have been machine tested. Depending on the specification, certification and my insurer's opinion, I may try them for him.

 

[Toy-Roverlander]

My bump stops are standard 1-Ton: there is a steel sandwich unit between the chassis plate and the normal rubber block. It's made that way for commonality (no need for special rubber molds) and so that the extension section can be removed if the suspension is dropped onto standard height - 1-Tons have hangers for the front of each spring with two sets of bolt holes; the upper holes are for standard ride height and would be used in conjunction with standard shackles, while the lower holes are about 1.5-2" lower down and are used with long shackles to allow the normal 1-Ton fitment of 9.00 tyres.

I don't use polybushes - I don't trust them. I think they allow too much movement, allow dirt ingress and if they fail, the inner steel sleeve will rub directly against the spring or chassis eye. All these mean they wear the spring or chassis. I'd only consider polybushes if they had the same cosntruction as the standard bonded rubber bushes, with firmly attached inner and outer steel sleeves that exclude all dirt and prevent any relative movement against the spring or chassis.

I sounds like you have good reasons behind going for the cheaper springs. I may yet get a Rocky Mountain set - they have a good reputation, second only to TIC, and I was quoted £355 (incl VAT) for a full HD spring set, when stock comes in. I also know someone who is developping a new parabolic brand and set, and he asked me if I'd do extended trials on them once they have been machine tested. Depending on the specification, certification and my insurer's opinion, I may try them for him.

Hmmm, maybe it's a good idea just to make something to sit in between the chassis and the bumpstop. I want to reduce bump travel a bit as the current springs reverse arch about 4inches and the tyres get pushed into the wheelarch quite badly, and the axle still doesn't hit the bumpstop... I don't think the para's will have a long life when they get subjected to this kind of abuse.......

I don't like polybushes either, for the exect same reasons you mentioned. I'll stick to rubber bushes anyday. Mind you, I've never had to replace any bushes yet, so I haven't quite experienced how bad it is to get them out.
Luckily the new springs come with bushes already fitted. And the ones in the chassis are still in good nick.

Rocky Mountain are good too. Apparantly they are an exact copy (except perhaps for the quality of steel) of the original TIC springs, or so I have been told by Paul. If you want to hear the full story, ask him about it.

That's interesting. Is it someone we know who is going to make those parabolics? I know someone who would be interested in field testing. I would be interested too, if I had a normal rear suspension setup. I can't have too much arch in the springs or the back end will sit too high, and as most para's lift the vehicle by about 2 inches, I don't really want to.

But if he does custom para's I would be very interested! If he could make me a set where the rear springs have less arch in them and are designed to withstand reverse arching, I would be very interested!
I know Alcan springs in the US can make just about anything you want, but they're in the States. That makes it all a bit more difficult. And shipping will be, well, quite pricey.

Koos

 

[Snagger]

The guy working on those springs is a member of another UK LR forum. The project was delayed a while, but he's getting restarted.

RM have been having problems with springs. Apparently, the quality of the steel was being reduced by the supplier, so RM changed from a US grade to a Japanese grade of steel. They bought a bulk load, but were then stitched up by the supplier, who shipped that steel to a "more important" customer, bumping RM down their priority list and causing big delays. That's the principle reason RM have been out of stock for so long, well, that and their concentrating on making Roverdrives.

 

[revor]

It almost seems easier to make the front end a coiler.