The future of 4WD?!

[zidaro]

As vehicles become more and more "safety" minded, electronically controlled, etc....standard 4wd will be replaced by high tech AWD and suspension systems (as some vehicles already are) that will make modifications difficult to impossible..or at least very expensive. The older vehicles will still be around, but their numbers will go decrease. Opportunities to wheel will decrease as more public land goes private, usage rules change, etc.

Do it while you can...

Inevitable, tragic- I only hope this future is distant and has a place for off-road vehicles and outdoor enjoyment. This is why we all need to savor and preserve what we have. If not, it'll be gone before we know it.

As for the futurecars- I welcome some of the technology and it can be quite amazing. My hopes are that durability is built in, because the frightening thing is the feasibility of field repairs is decreasing exponentially.

Enough of the depressing- I love my '87 4runner and it had better be able to handle the rocks, dunes, baja blasting, extended camping, and the highway to get there and back- or what the hell did i build it for?

 

[dyogim]

I'm in the same boat as 01Tundra. I started off wanting to build the tundra into a rock rig. However, after life/priority changes (kids), a rock rig is not practical for the family. Hence, the reason on becoming a member here. To learn more on how to make my rig more family oriented and be able to take them out to the back country to spend a few days. Come back and daily drive my rig to work.

 

[freeze]

It's an issue up here in Canada as well. We have quite a few motorized backcountry users which don't adhere to the Tread Lightly! principals or just use proper backcountry ethics especially on the OHV trails. We've been working hard at changing the mentality and the stereotypes which are associated with motorized backcountry access.

We've seen lots of seasoned 4WD'ers understand the principals and know them but really don't practice them when it comes to driving or camping. It's the whole "I know that" syndrome but don't practice it. Part of the issue is the machismo aspect to driving a 4WD... "rig so capable I never get stuck" well sure at the expense of the ground you're driving on. Putting the ego aside to "shut'er down" and use a better way to get unstuck then the throttle. This applies more to the terrain up here where it's soft, unlike the rocks or boulders.

It's nice to see Toyota still pushing it's 4WD heritage with the new 4Runner which does include techno wizardry. The downside: more electronics which could fail at somepoint. At least they are still creating ideas and products that enable the user to explore the backcountry whether they do or not. At TTORA someone mentioned that it's a shift in attitude while leveraging technology. Which applied to tubed rock buggies going with an Engel Fridge and a RTT while the Expedition tourer slimming down on all the gear so they can do harder obstacles.

And the label... well sure it's what makes us human. Toyota is a lable... so is a Truck. Big Mountain Skier is a label as well. At this point there isn't a term for some of us that enjoy big mountain 4WD'ing and touring.

 

[Jeep or Tacoma]

I don't know What would you build?

I think four wheel drive will always be here, In the end there are always guys like us that would rather control the rigs. Also if you look at the shoot out from land crusier fj vs rubicon the rubicon wins off road. So there may be some movement towards all electronic stuff. But there will always be a lot of guys who would rather just do it themselves. Maybe some really smart designer out there will read this and build a solid axle jeep with a camper and 35's stock keep it simple strong and cheap and will clean up So lets here it for what would you build if you owned GM Ford or Chrysler :coffeedrink:

 

[Martinjmpr]

I think it's normal as we become a more affluent society with more leisure time and disposable income that recreational vehicles become more and more specialized.

When I started getting into 4wds back in the 70's, the 4-wheeling "sport" was still relatively primitive. 32" tires were considered enormous and a 4" lift was about the most you ever saw (most people went un-lifted.) Specialized gear consisted of things like spare tire/gas can carriers that mounted to the back of a vehicle (the stout sheet metal of those days could support that weight - you couldn't get away with it now.) Even power steering was considered a "luxury" to say nothing of air conditioning and FM radio.

The 4 wheelers of that day were an alternative to the low-slung cars most people drove, so really it didn't take much to have more capability than an average 2wd vehicle.

What's interesting now is that as 4wd rigs have become more capable in low-traction situations, so have "cars." What I mean is that 40 years ago, if you just needed a car to get to work or to drive around town, you bought a RWD sedan or station wagon. Maybe 30 years ago you bought a "compact", often RWD (FWD was just getting started) but it still had little or no "off road" capability.

But nowadays, that "car" will often be a Crossover like the Honda CR-V or Toyota RAV-4, or even a true SUV like the Ford Explorer. It will often have AWD or 4wd of some type. And usually traction control, too.

The end result is that the "daily driver" of today often has characteristics similar to the 4wd adventure vehicle of 30 years ago.

The downside, of course, is that areas that were once practically speaking "off limits" to those without a built-up rig, are now accessible to just about anybody with 4 driven wheels, which has resulted in the despoiling of some pretty spectacular scenery, and also the inevitable ruling, regulating and gating that population brings.

I sometimes wonder what I'd be driving if I didn't need an off-road capable vehicle. I'm not a sports car guy (if I want to go fast and carve corners I'll ride my motorcycle) and I like "practical" vehicles so I'd probably end up in something like a Highlander or a RAV4.

I also wonder if there is a market out there for a "light" expedition vehicle. Something that is capable of moderate dirt roads or mild 4wd trails, but still gets decent MPG. Considering that for me at least, most of my "expeditioning" is done on paved or well graded dirt roads, I could probably drop the low-range requirement altogether and still be able to get to 95% of the places I want to see.

I've even thought it might be fun to put together a "daily driver" or "no-low" run. Get a bunch of vehicles together for a trip, with the following restrictions: Every vehicle has to be able to get more than 25mpg on the highway; and nothing with a low-range t-case would be allowed. It may sound funny but think about it: You could have a bunch of RAV4s, CR-Vs, Foresters, Santa Fe's, etc, and I think they could actually go a lot of places that people rarely take them.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

I haven't been around too long but myself and several other people who's opinions I respect who are really knowledgeable on the subject believe it's all cyclical. What we are seeing is 'expeditioning' is a method and almost even a slight market correction related to some of the perceived 'excesses' we were seeing before, which is sort of a back to the basics. It is also similar in a weird way to much of what we are seeing with the economy. Simple, low cost modifications that are fairly bare bones and/or that you can do yourself which is also about the same stuff we were seeing in the late 90s when I got into 4WD when I was in college. Pretty soon things start getting a little more technically oriented mostly due to the nature of most 4WD driving and particularly the location and technical requirements of most 4WD trails throughout the United States, in that the vast expanses of multiple days of travel and genuine 'expeditioning' is really only limited to a few states or regions, which is really the Southwest (including Colorado and New Mexico to Death Valley and north to the Sierras /western Idaho/Oregon/Washington State borders depending on the lands). And a lot of Canada as well particularly Quebec but way up north. And that's really about it. For everyone else it is destination wheeling which mostly means just trails, assuming you have the time to get out, or driving a nicely built 4WD vehicle with a shovel attached to a roof rack to the grocery store or commuting, which we all do as well of course. This is simply because there is so little legal terrain (and genuinely rural areas) throughout most of the US. Even in Vermont I recall driving hours and hours to go to a set of trails somewhere in rural New Hampshire, again because it was one of the few areas that was legal.

Because it is destination wheeling (and even those of us in the west do it to) in generally can call for a slightly more set up vehicle than the smaller tired ones which are in a weird category where they are either too well set up for most of their terrain (which is arguably doable with a nicely set up Subaru) or under-setup for a lot of the destination terrain where you might actually need 33's and lockers.

So many of my friends believe that we will start seeing that transition, to 4" lifts and 33s and even 35s like we did as the next phase of 'expeditioning' which is unfortunate as it encourages people to modify their trucks more than they should for off road performance which sacrifices good on road handling, which also encourages selling of vehicles way more often because it is easy to get sick of a truck that is too set up for off road as it is no longer useful. 4WD modifications are compounding until you get to the level where you finally have it set up, which also costs a fortune because you have to do gearing, locking, etc etc, until you finally get there.. The same is also true with motorcycles as well and even mountain bikes. In all regards everything is a compromise to an extent. More off road = less road worthiness. The funny thing is about where we are at, or maybe where we are at, added with some locking differentials, is about the perfect place to be.

So it is an interesting question...

Now to post some pictures of some awesome looking trucks that are completely overbuilt and are compromises, but sure look cool, and will sell or a few years. Versus their counterparts...

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

My former FJ55 (where I made the mistake of overbuilding it, and eventually choosing to sell it).. It was truly amazing how well it 'wheeled' though, it could keep up with much better built rigs...

And then about the max that I think it could/should be built.

I sold it to rebuild a new one at some point, perhaps, some day (I am maybe 30-40% done with the new one, it is currently a pretty bare bones rolling chassis as of about 4 years ago)... The more I build it and the more I learn right now the smaller and smaller it is getting... I had planned on 35" tires again but now will do 33's or the small/skinny 34" Toyos perhaps...

 

[Chazz Layne]

I also wonder if there is a market out there for a "light" expedition vehicle. Something that is capable of moderate dirt roads or mild 4wd trails, but still gets decent MPG. Considering that for me at least, most of my "expeditioning" is done on paved or well graded dirt roads, I could probably drop the low-range requirement altogether and still be able to get to 95% of the places I want to see.

To that, I would have to say absolutely YES. Our primary is a LR Discovery, but even with modest modifications it is still a gas-guzzling beast of a vehicle (don't get me wrong, always a pleasure to drive it). The "wife's truck", however, is a Ranger with the little 3.0L V6 which we are slowly building with economy and efficiency in mind (no more than 2" lift, no bigger than 31" tires, etc). It is a great thing to be able to head out for a long weekend, explore the desert, and still have fuel left over when you hit pavement again. Even better when the vehicle is long enough to sleep in the back...

...more than 25mpg on the highway...

...although, the best we have seen is 22mpg (16-18 out in the dirt ).

 

[Martinjmpr]

It is a great thing to be able to head out for a long weekend, explore the desert, and still have fuel left over when you hit pavement again. Even better when the vehicle is long enough to sleep in the back...

Long before I heard of ExPo, I had a 99 2wd Ranger with a topper (and the same 3.0l V6) and I drove it all over the place. How much? Well, I bought it new in July of 99 and traded it in April of 2003 with just over 93k on the clock. Considering that I was deployed for part of 2003 I basically had that truck for ~40 months. 93,000 miles / 40 months = 2325 miles/month average.

That Ranger was actually the best "road trip" vehicle I ever had. It was comfortable, economical, and easy to drive almost anywhere. It would have benefited from Cruise Control but that's about the only thing I could think of to add to it.

There were times I wished I had 4wd (like when I lived in Laramie, WY, which has pretty harsh winters) but otherwise I just stayed within the limitations of the vehicle and did great.

...although, the best we have seen is 22mpg (16-18 out in the dirt ).

That's actually darn good for a 4wd Ranger. When I was on the Ranger forums it was common to see people getting 12 - 15mpg with their 4x4 Rangers. Of course, most of them were young kids and were probably driving like young kids, but still, 20+ from a 4wd Ranger is good. I got 26 a couple of times but that was under very favorable conditions. 21-23 was my normal MPG on the highway.

 

[Owyhee H]

Use and reliability

I think that there is a lot of merit to what is being discussed here. I have always longed for a lifted taco with 33" and lockers, ARB bullbar, winch etc....but who really needs it. I have my 85 4runner with 235/75/15 BFG AT, rear locker and a Hi-Lift and have found I can go ANYWHERE that there is or used to be a road. I know that i will go slow getting there but I can also get 20mpg+. I wish that there were more simple rugged reliable EFFICIENT rigs being built today...if only I were in charge.....

I am also impressed with 22mpg ranger, I know its a 3.0. I had a 4.0L ranger and normally got 15 and a best of 18, hence why I don't have it anymore, other than that it was a great vehicle.

Manufacturers should hopefully start to realize that we can make an engine more efficient but there is a limit to the efficiency of the otto engine, and the diesel engine. Conservation of energy is a fairly simple concept and the bigger and heavier a vehicle is the more energy it requires. We should all remember this when building and using our vehicles. Don't take what you don't need and sometimes simple is better. How much gas and energy is a little extra effort or work worth. I dont want to rag on anyone but DDing a fully kitted expedition vehicle is a waste, for the vehicle and for the environment. There are a lot of cool tools out there that I find myself lusting after but what do they offer vs what do they cost/require?

Now that my soapbox is satisfied......I hope that the future of 4x4ing brings about more simple basic 4x4's that can be actually used. I think that the rav4 is a great vehicle for what it is and who it serves but I would not take it the places I go. Now a rav4 with a good transfer case and rugged suspension that would be ok. I would love a Mahindra if they prove to be reliable.

Personally I think that the crossover is a move in the right direction, for most. Too many people were driving "SUV"'s that never used them and didnt need them. The crossover provides a platform where they can have a little bigger vehicle with AWD for "safety", but in a much more comfortable efficient package. I still think there should be a true 4x4 for people who actually use it, like the people on this forum.

 

[freeze]

That's a beautiful IronPig!

 

[getlost4x4]

i really like the older rigs for their lack of electronic gizmo's.

i had a 2006 jeep commander with 3" of lift, 32" tires, Quadra Trac 2, and tons of other crap on it.

the electronic traction control really gets annoying. especially when you get into snow and mud where you sometimes need some wheel spin to get the crap out of the tires. i can't tell you how many times the TC took the power away from the drivetrain and left me stuck. luckily i had a winch to get me out.

with my 1978 wagoneer it doesn't have any of that crap. it has QuadraTrac for the transfer case and that is it. i've been out testing it out. it is about 100 times better then the commander. it has no lift and 31" tall tires. for an archaic technology vehicle, it does really good. did i mention it comes with a simple leaf spring suspension, and D44's front and rear?

my plans are for 2" of lift, 3.73 gears and 33x10.50x15. that's it. maybe a rear locker. i have a winch for the front (t-max 9000#), and i'll add a roof rack for the spare and water.

i installed a 42 gallon gas tank so i have very good range in this thing compared with the 250 i could go in my commander.

anyway, it may not be as safe as the tree hugger cars out there, but its not going to be going 85 down the highway. i'll keep it at 65 with my cruise control and enjoy the scenery.

I'll call mine an-

Overlander

i enjoy the simpleness because it makes the trails a little more challenging. i got bored in my rockcrawler toyota truck anyway.

 

[jcbrandon]

When that giant bag of money falls out of the sky I'd like to have a a kitted-out Landcruiser or Land Rover Defender, and a 700-horsepower trophy truck, and an Earthroamer, and a couple of dual sport bikes.

Until then, I have one vehicle: a full-size four-door pickup. For my needs, it's the closest thing to an all-round vehicle I can find. Mine came with lockers, big axle articulation, a winch, a powerful V8, and 4.56 gearing. The time I could have spent on modifying a different vehicle has gone into some great trips.

I'm currently planning a week-long 2,000-mile road trip. Tonight my wife said she wants us to take my truck because it is more comfortable than her Ford Escape. I think that validates my choice.

 

[T.Low]

Good thread.

 

[dustboy]

The first post reminds me of the ultimate cross-over sport:

Cross Country Snowboarding