Nikson
Explorer
Well, its all about making one of them work, need to bust the first NUT so to speak...
Jeep Wrangler TJ/LJ Diesel option
- Thread starter Nikson
- Start date
Well, its all about making one of them work, need to bust the first NUT so to speak...
Nikson
Explorer
I believe that most of the diesels run either on electric or mechanical pump, and that what makes a difference...
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
I'll chime in:
First, If you'd like to see a diesel Wrangler from the factory, sign the Jeep diesel petition! http://jeepdieselpetiton.com
Second, here are my thoughts on upcoming diesel swaps for the Wrangler from the DoKa thread:
The 2.8 VM diesel currently in the export Wrangler will not pass the new Euro emissions standards, and will never pass US standards. This engine is a dead-end and (I think) will soon vanish. (Maybe it will stick around in the J8 due to it's tolerance for high sulfur diesel - or even better, hopefully they can somehow make the new 3.0 tolerant.. )
The 3.0 from VM/Motori, however, does pass the new Euro standards, according to rumors has already passed US testing, and is confirmed to be coming to the GC in 2013.
In the export GC, that 3.0 currently is tuned for 241 HP (245 in some variants) and 406 ft. lb. with 28.3 MPG (US) Combined.
I know the Wrangler is a different vehicle than the GC and has the aerodynamics of a brick, but I honestly see no reason this sophisticated turbo diesel can't get 30+ MPG highway and towards 25 city. I also hope the mileage wouldn't really drop too much for 4x4ing.
I'll be very, very surprised if AEV don't at least attempt a conversion with this 3.0 into a Wrangler when it shows up in the GC. It could be a pain in the *** and a virtual dead end like the older Liberty-> Wrangler diesel swap you guys have mentioned, but I feel like they will at least try. If it winds up in the export Wrangler, then I have to imagine it will be a relatively straight-forward swap.
The GC and wrangler now share the same transmission, so same bell housing, etc.
If it can be done relatively easy, I see no reason they won't offer a conversion kit like the HEMI ones (unless they know Jeep is going to offer the engine from the factory in the near future, which makes this discussion nil.).
Of course, that's just my gut feeling.
-Dan
First, If you'd like to see a diesel Wrangler from the factory, sign the Jeep diesel petition! http://jeepdieselpetiton.com
Second, here are my thoughts on upcoming diesel swaps for the Wrangler from the DoKa thread:
The 2.8 VM diesel currently in the export Wrangler will not pass the new Euro emissions standards, and will never pass US standards. This engine is a dead-end and (I think) will soon vanish. (Maybe it will stick around in the J8 due to it's tolerance for high sulfur diesel - or even better, hopefully they can somehow make the new 3.0 tolerant.. )
The 3.0 from VM/Motori, however, does pass the new Euro standards, according to rumors has already passed US testing, and is confirmed to be coming to the GC in 2013.
In the export GC, that 3.0 currently is tuned for 241 HP (245 in some variants) and 406 ft. lb. with 28.3 MPG (US) Combined.
I know the Wrangler is a different vehicle than the GC and has the aerodynamics of a brick, but I honestly see no reason this sophisticated turbo diesel can't get 30+ MPG highway and towards 25 city. I also hope the mileage wouldn't really drop too much for 4x4ing.
I'll be very, very surprised if AEV don't at least attempt a conversion with this 3.0 into a Wrangler when it shows up in the GC. It could be a pain in the *** and a virtual dead end like the older Liberty-> Wrangler diesel swap you guys have mentioned, but I feel like they will at least try. If it winds up in the export Wrangler, then I have to imagine it will be a relatively straight-forward swap.
The GC and wrangler now share the same transmission, so same bell housing, etc.
If it can be done relatively easy, I see no reason they won't offer a conversion kit like the HEMI ones (unless they know Jeep is going to offer the engine from the factory in the near future, which makes this discussion nil.).
Of course, that's just my gut feeling.
-Dan
Nikson
Explorer
All the same reason why it makes me want to put in the 3.0 in my LJ...
jeepdreamer
Expedition Leader
Understood... 
From my limited learning so far I agree. Older, mech. pumped diesels are the easiest way to go diesel in a conversion which is what makes the 4bt/MB300/etc the choice for many. But from my perspective it truly is old technology. Its simple and yes, it does work ok... but at some point even us Jeepers have to modernize a little. Look at how accepted fuel injuction has become.
The biggest pluses of the modern diesels are the common rail fi and the generally lighter overall package. Its possible to be more efficent and (hopefully) less problematic, though something can still be said for the stouness of good old cast iron. Anyway.. the electronics that make these modern motors work seem extremely complex. In some cases (like MB/BMW performance autos) they really ARE complex. With so many various components all talking to each other and having input from sources previously unheard of...it makes for a wiring nightmare.
But at the end of the day the diesel still functions at its base level as it has from the begining. So perhaps the key to all this is to step back and evaluate which of these motors can be reduced in computer requirements and various input from sensors etc without suffering in either performance or efficency.?.
To that end I have to wonder about the 3.0 that VM markets towards their Aggricultural/Industrial clients? If it is essentually the same motor, detuned, and with a minimum of "fluff" input... why wouldn't this work instead? Granted I don't fully understand the differences in turbos and injector sizes etc.. I'm learning. But if one were to get an industrial 3.0 with a stand alone computer harness to simply make it run, add the variable turbo and ?? to get it to make good Tq numbers...why is that imposible?
I don't want to sound like a simpleton but I am just trying to understand how a mechanically simpler motor (Diesel vs gas=no real ignition etc) has become so complicated to work into our greater schemes? As a mass produced application... sure. Once Feep heads towards that and allows Big brotha to start looking over their shoulder, things get complicated (and expensive!) fast. But from our limited application perspective... why do we need a pletheoria of extra sensors and doo-dads to tell me my blinker fluid is low?
Take an industrial application motor and go from there? Less complex but still sharing the same configuration (CRD,BellHousing,etc) and maybe worry about making it faster once its in?? Just a thought... "
From my limited learning so far I agree. Older, mech. pumped diesels are the easiest way to go diesel in a conversion which is what makes the 4bt/MB300/etc the choice for many. But from my perspective it truly is old technology. Its simple and yes, it does work ok... but at some point even us Jeepers have to modernize a little. Look at how accepted fuel injuction has become.
The biggest pluses of the modern diesels are the common rail fi and the generally lighter overall package. Its possible to be more efficent and (hopefully) less problematic, though something can still be said for the stouness of good old cast iron. Anyway.. the electronics that make these modern motors work seem extremely complex. In some cases (like MB/BMW performance autos) they really ARE complex. With so many various components all talking to each other and having input from sources previously unheard of...it makes for a wiring nightmare.
But at the end of the day the diesel still functions at its base level as it has from the begining. So perhaps the key to all this is to step back and evaluate which of these motors can be reduced in computer requirements and various input from sensors etc without suffering in either performance or efficency.?.
To that end I have to wonder about the 3.0 that VM markets towards their Aggricultural/Industrial clients? If it is essentually the same motor, detuned, and with a minimum of "fluff" input... why wouldn't this work instead? Granted I don't fully understand the differences in turbos and injector sizes etc.. I'm learning. But if one were to get an industrial 3.0 with a stand alone computer harness to simply make it run, add the variable turbo and ?? to get it to make good Tq numbers...why is that imposible?
I don't want to sound like a simpleton but I am just trying to understand how a mechanically simpler motor (Diesel vs gas=no real ignition etc) has become so complicated to work into our greater schemes? As a mass produced application... sure. Once Feep heads towards that and allows Big brotha to start looking over their shoulder, things get complicated (and expensive!) fast. But from our limited application perspective... why do we need a pletheoria of extra sensors and doo-dads to tell me my blinker fluid is low?
Take an industrial application motor and go from there? Less complex but still sharing the same configuration (CRD,BellHousing,etc) and maybe worry about making it faster once its in?? Just a thought... "
Nikson
Explorer
...
Take an industrial application motor and go from there? Less complex but still sharing the same configuration (CRD,BellHousing,etc) and maybe worry about making it faster once its in?? Just a thought... "
I might be an old style guy, but in my opinion its better when things are simple, e.i.
mechanical pump + old style 5spd gear box & TC without any "electronically" controlled modules, thus if it dont start, you can push start it in case of a dead battery, etc.
If engine dont start, there is a good chance where the fuel is just not getting there, no electronic injectors to plug up with "3rd world fuel" and that engine simply "runs"
But then again... performance now days is something everyone wants... (me as well:coffeedrink
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
Again....making it 'work' and making it 'factory' are two completely different things.
-4bt has been done, is a nice big industrial last forever pure mechanical diesel. It needs about 4" of lift to make it work. Its 780lbs+. The front axle probably needs beefed up. A factory TJ computer can run the gauge package for a 'factory' look and feel. Cruise is difficult but most likely possible with the external cruise unit and a vacuum pump.
-The liberty CRD 2.8 has been done and is probably the best match in my opinion. There still needs to be some more work on the development of the computer swap. Most of the info and theory is in the AEV thread. I did a LOT of digging into that at one point.
-The 3.0 is going to be TIGHT! The 4.7 v8 does NOT fit in the TJ chassis without doing something for more room with the coil towers if I remember right. The 3.0 is a fairly wide motor also....and has had issues with the install on the JK in the past. It was something about the steering box position in the JK.
-The 2.7 from the sprinter could be fantastic. It hasn't been done yet that I know of. The automatic was used in a 4wd application on the GC behind that same engine.
-The VW 1.9 could be nice. Making it function mostly factory in something like a TJ would be difficult. I think its a touch small for a TJ, especially in a loaded down 'expedition' vehicle. You can make them run on a mechanical pump easy enough. Most of the adapters have been figured out. It is a small and light engine.
-Most of the GM engine conversions in the TJ use either aftermarket gauges and/or a twin computer system where the factory jeep computer just does speed, tach, temp and pressure. The cruise could probably be made to work with an independent VSS between the transmission and t-case like some adapters offer, mostly auto versions if I remember right.
And now for your golden nugget :sombrero:
If your REALLY serious about the diesel conversion into the TJ platform and want a manual mechanical option look into the MWM 4.07 engine from south america. It can be adapted to an NV3500 very easy ( and perhaps the 6spd with a little more work ) Its a 2.8 liter all mechancal engine. The exhaust/turbo is on the passenger side of the engine for a clean exhaust run down the frame rail. Its the right size and weight to directly replace the 4.0. Its slightly shorter which would allow for a nice thick intercooler between the radiator and grill. It could just about be bolt in. The engine can make great power and has aftermarket and rally racing support from Brazil. The TJ computer can be used as a simple 'slave' to just provide tach, speedo, temp, pressure, and fuel level. Cruise control could be done with an added vacuum source like an aux pump. The engine is pure mechanical....the computer is just there for gauge readings. You could also replace all the factory gauges if you wanted.
Ok.....I'm done now.....have fun! :sombrero:
-4bt has been done, is a nice big industrial last forever pure mechanical diesel. It needs about 4" of lift to make it work. Its 780lbs+. The front axle probably needs beefed up. A factory TJ computer can run the gauge package for a 'factory' look and feel. Cruise is difficult but most likely possible with the external cruise unit and a vacuum pump.
-The liberty CRD 2.8 has been done and is probably the best match in my opinion. There still needs to be some more work on the development of the computer swap. Most of the info and theory is in the AEV thread. I did a LOT of digging into that at one point.
-The 3.0 is going to be TIGHT! The 4.7 v8 does NOT fit in the TJ chassis without doing something for more room with the coil towers if I remember right. The 3.0 is a fairly wide motor also....and has had issues with the install on the JK in the past. It was something about the steering box position in the JK.
-The 2.7 from the sprinter could be fantastic. It hasn't been done yet that I know of. The automatic was used in a 4wd application on the GC behind that same engine.
-The VW 1.9 could be nice. Making it function mostly factory in something like a TJ would be difficult. I think its a touch small for a TJ, especially in a loaded down 'expedition' vehicle. You can make them run on a mechanical pump easy enough. Most of the adapters have been figured out. It is a small and light engine.
-Most of the GM engine conversions in the TJ use either aftermarket gauges and/or a twin computer system where the factory jeep computer just does speed, tach, temp and pressure. The cruise could probably be made to work with an independent VSS between the transmission and t-case like some adapters offer, mostly auto versions if I remember right.
And now for your golden nugget :sombrero:
If your REALLY serious about the diesel conversion into the TJ platform and want a manual mechanical option look into the MWM 4.07 engine from south america. It can be adapted to an NV3500 very easy ( and perhaps the 6spd with a little more work ) Its a 2.8 liter all mechancal engine. The exhaust/turbo is on the passenger side of the engine for a clean exhaust run down the frame rail. Its the right size and weight to directly replace the 4.0. Its slightly shorter which would allow for a nice thick intercooler between the radiator and grill. It could just about be bolt in. The engine can make great power and has aftermarket and rally racing support from Brazil. The TJ computer can be used as a simple 'slave' to just provide tach, speedo, temp, pressure, and fuel level. Cruise control could be done with an added vacuum source like an aux pump. The engine is pure mechanical....the computer is just there for gauge readings. You could also replace all the factory gauges if you wanted.
Ok.....I'm done now.....have fun! :sombrero:
Nikson
Explorer
Its all mostly up to the checkbook limits...
x32792
Adventurer
Want a Diesel Option? Write or call Jeep...
CONTACT JEEP - New Vehicle Information
http://www.jeep.com/webselfservice/jeep/index.jsp
I would like NEW VEHICLE information..... 'Where's my 3.0L Diesel Jeep Wrangler with six speed manual transmission?'
Contact Us by Telephone
1-877-426-5337
(877-IAM-JEEP)
M-F 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM ET
SAT 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM ET
CONTACT JEEP - New Vehicle Information
http://www.jeep.com/webselfservice/jeep/index.jsp
I would like NEW VEHICLE information..... 'Where's my 3.0L Diesel Jeep Wrangler with six speed manual transmission?'
Contact Us by Telephone
1-877-426-5337
(877-IAM-JEEP)
M-F 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM ET
SAT 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM ET
Silverdiesel
New member
Diesel in a TJ-L would be nice.
To have a modern 4Cyl and have it go in with out that nasty problem of the ECU being tied to everything making installs and wiring and compatibility into a nightmare nightmare is uncool.
Perhaps this works: a stand alone system that even works with a manual transmission...
http://www.twinkam.co.uk/shop/page/8?shop_param=
Abie t over the pond but this is the first system I have come across that does away with all the tangling and interaction of systems and turns the motor into a nice drop into what you want.....
To have a modern 4Cyl and have it go in with out that nasty problem of the ECU being tied to everything making installs and wiring and compatibility into a nightmare nightmare is uncool.
Perhaps this works: a stand alone system that even works with a manual transmission...
http://www.twinkam.co.uk/shop/page/8?shop_param=
Abie t over the pond but this is the first system I have come across that does away with all the tangling and interaction of systems and turns the motor into a nice drop into what you want.....
ReconH3
Heavy Duty Adventurer
My only advice is to stay away from the VM engines. You are going to spend all this money and effort to end up with and unreliable setup that's expensive to maintain. Go with an MB engine out of Sprinter where you will be able to get parts easily for, and is extremely reliable.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
Sent from my iPhone
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
Sent from my iPhone
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
I would love to see someone pull off the 2.7L 2000-2006 sprinter engine in a TJ/LJ. If only I had more money and time. I would love to give it a try.
2.7L inline 5 cylinder OM612/OM647 156hp ( was 161hp in the WJ GC )
It was used in the 2002-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee. 161hp/295ft lbs. That chassis also used the 4.0L inline six and a solid front axle which makes me think it would fit REALLY nice in the TJ chassis. Economy was listed at 34.9 extra urban and 29.1 combined. That is in imperial gallons. That converts to 29mpg extra urban, 24.22mpg in US gallons.
From what I understand the 2.7 diesel jeeps used the W5A580 transmission just like th 2012 JK does now.( in the jeep it was called the w5j400 I think back then?) 4WD should not be an issue at all. It would be interesting to see how similar the sprinter version and jeep version of the engine is. The np242 transfer case was an option in the 2.7 CRD GC as far as I can tell. That should make bolting up just about any jeep transfer case pretty easy.
The problem, just like the liberty swap, is going to be the wiring. I need to track down a copy of a 2002+ WJ FSM and take a look at the wiring diagrams. I suspect the WJ uses much the same system for communication that the KJ CRD does with a gateway module.
2.7L inline 5 cylinder OM612/OM647 156hp ( was 161hp in the WJ GC )
It was used in the 2002-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee. 161hp/295ft lbs. That chassis also used the 4.0L inline six and a solid front axle which makes me think it would fit REALLY nice in the TJ chassis. Economy was listed at 34.9 extra urban and 29.1 combined. That is in imperial gallons. That converts to 29mpg extra urban, 24.22mpg in US gallons.
From what I understand the 2.7 diesel jeeps used the W5A580 transmission just like th 2012 JK does now.( in the jeep it was called the w5j400 I think back then?) 4WD should not be an issue at all. It would be interesting to see how similar the sprinter version and jeep version of the engine is. The np242 transfer case was an option in the 2.7 CRD GC as far as I can tell. That should make bolting up just about any jeep transfer case pretty easy.
The problem, just like the liberty swap, is going to be the wiring. I need to track down a copy of a 2002+ WJ FSM and take a look at the wiring diagrams. I suspect the WJ uses much the same system for communication that the KJ CRD does with a gateway module.