100AH Lithium cant handle start up draw

[luthj]

Trojan Trillium drop-in units use a true relay (not solid state like BB). They can handle 1C rates without issue.

Trojan Battery Company

https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/24_Lithium_12.8-92.pdf

Maximum Continuous Discharge Current @ 77°F (25°C) 92A
Maximum Pulse Discharge Current @ 77°F (25°C) 250A for 30 seconds
Maximum Instantaneous Discharge Current 400A

Notice how little capacity loss there is at higher discharge rates.

 

[67cj5]

Yeah I agree, As you say FLA is very primitive, They can hold and store the power and they will spend it fast but the real downside to them is that FLA batteries are very lazy when it comes to charging back up and they waste a big chunk of power, But saying that all my Deep Cycle Batteries are FLA,

Lithium are great when it comes to discharge rates etc but like you say I believe that they do have limited use, FLA are great all rounders for moderate use but I amd starting to think that AGM's are more suited to our needs, Because FLA's are lazy and lithium are too restrictive.

The Andrew St Pierre White who built that Trick Landcruiser in Aus used CAL batteries in that and he had a really good system,

Here is one of his videos But I will try and find the one where he talks about his new battery setup,

 

[dreadlocks]

Trojan Trillium drop-in units use a true relay (not solid state like BB). They can handle 1C rates without issue.

Trojan Battery Company

https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/24_Lithium_12.8-92.pdf

Maximum Continuous Discharge Current @ 77°F (25°C) 92A
Maximum Pulse Discharge Current @ 77°F (25°C) 250A for 30 seconds
Maximum Instantaneous Discharge Current 400A

Notice how little capacity loss there is at higher discharge rates.

View attachment 530135

BB can handle 1C discharge rate, 200A burst for up to 30s.. its not too far behind that trojan

 

[67cj5]

Here is Andrews Video where he talks about his Land Cruiser Build,

He talks about the batteries at around the 15 minute mark,

hope that helps.

 

[luthj]

BB can handle 1C discharge rate, 200A burst for up to 30s.. its not too far behind that trojan

A few reports I have heard, indicates that BBs ratings may be a bit optimistic. They also will release the BMS solid-state relay if it overheats. So if the battery/relay is hot from charging, discharging, 5s at 200A may be enough to cause a drop-out. Now those were early units, so its possible their design has changed.

The other issue is instantaneous current, (motor startup surge). There are a few reports on the web about AC motors (through inverters) causing BB drop outs.

Not knocking the product, its just not designed around high power applications. Trojan is more focused on the golf-cart type market, where high currents are the norm. You do pay a slightly high quiescent current penalty for that relay though.

 

[john61ct]

Oh you can get a BMS that handles high current, but last I looked one that could handle ~600A was about 75% the price of a BattleBorn LFP... handling high current through electronics that are made to last, is not cheap.

Or setup connections so you can bypass BMS when high discharge is needed, occasional winch use being a good example.

LVC can function just fine, owner needs to regulate against overcurrent manually.

Vendors design BMS to protect the cells from the owner. But nice thing about DIY "have it your way".

With great power comes great responsibility though

 

[john61ct]

Electric propulsion is a whole 'nother scale.

Andrew St Pierre White who built that Trick Landcruiser in Aus used CAL batteries in that

You mean CALB?

 

[67cj5]

Electric propulsion is a whole 'nother scale.

You mean CALB?

He used Calcium Batteries. is all I know.

 

[john61ct]

Ah.

 

[dwh]

AGM and CAL are both lead acid batteries. AGM has fiberglass fabric between the plates, CAL has calcium mixed into the lead.

For deep cycle use, neither one is really superior to flooded.

 

[dreadlocks]

According to my BMV, Ive pulled up to 180A out of my BB for a few moments while I fire up a saw or something on my inverter.. but so far everything's taking it, wife even overloaded the inverter once.. while microwave was running she was playing w/the toaster that was plugged in and pressed it down, everything shutdown real fast but I'm pretty sure it was the Inverter and not the battery that noped it outta that.

With microwave and normal aux loads (lights/fridge/etc) I was seeing nearly 100A continuous coming out of the battleborn (98A exact).. and never had BMS shutdown, but now I put aux loads behind another LVD and when the inverter is working that hard it'll shutdown everything else to prevent me from hitting BMS cut off since I was soo close.

I've seen no indication that the BB wont output its rated specs, and I've taken it to the edge w/out any BMS overrides.

 

[shade]

Use batteries for their designed use - seems to be the takeaway from this discussion.

 

[luthj]

Use batteries for their designed use - seems to be the takeaway from this discussion.

Read and understand the freaking manual, lol.

 

[john61ct]

Don't believe vendors claims that their products mean you don't need to learn the details of how this stuff works.

I mean sure, a five-figure check to Victron will include installation and a training runthrough. . .

 

[rayra]

Use batteries for their designed use - seems to be the takeaway from this discussion.

Yes indeed. It would seem a Lithium is good for a 'House' battery, but not an 'Aux' / dual / parallel battery solution. And not for heavy loads even in a 'House' config. Lot of folks think Aux/House are interchangeable terms / config concepts. They aren't.
Seems like the topic-subject config ought to have the compressor running from the Starter battery / alternator as a supply. And the Lithium handling the lighter duty camping requirements.

My own setup is two large matching / swappable standard batteries as starter and under hood Aux, with a 200A solenoid as a key-on combiner. With the intent of a front and rear hitch-mounted winch. To facilitate a rear winch I ran heavy 1/0 cabling to the rear. And there I hung by extra power options in the rear cargo area, along with connections for rooftop / ground-deployable solar. That's all off my Aux 'as' House. But I still intend on adding an array of SLA wheelchair batteries in that power box, about 40Ah worth. They'll will become my 'house' power sources, electrically isolated for such discharge, while also still connected to the Aux branch circuit for charging purposes. From either alternator thru Aux or solar. Sort of over-complicated, but I'm trying to have maximum flexibility in the system while building in Starter battery redundancy - if it dies I can swap in the Aux - and I can run the heaviest / winch loads thru the Aux, possibly protecting the Starter battery. And with the small SLAs for lighting and recharging or powering small devices. And all of it only costing me less than 1.5cu' in my vehicle's cargo area.