2.1 millon acres gone - Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009

kellymoe

Expedition Leader
The Expedition Portal is a site primarily geared toward vehicle based exploring on roads throughout the USA and the world. These travels are primarily on dirt roads or unimproved roads. Is it any wonder that when there is a bill proposed that may limit or reduce our access to these roads there will an outcry? Especially since 99% of the people on this site are responsible land uses who leave the place in a better condition than they found it?

This is an odd group of people who truely love the wilderness and want to preserve it and yet they also want to maintain access to back roads. It's tough to champion a the right to access the land you love and also champion a cause that may shut down the very area you love. I think this is the dilema many of the people on this site face. Many feel pulled in two directions.
 

Jonathan Hanson

Well-known member
The Expedition Portal is a site primarily geared toward vehicle based exploring on roads throughout the USA and the world. These travels are primarily on dirt roads or unimproved roads. Is it any wonder that when there is a bill proposed that may limit or reduce our access to these roads there will an outcry? Especially since 99% of the people on this site are responsible land uses who leave the place in a better condition than they found it?

This is an odd group of people who truely love the wilderness and want to preserve it and yet they also want to maintain access to back roads. It's tough to champion a the right to access the land you love and also champion a cause that may shut down the very area you love. I think this is the dilema many of the people on this site face. Many feel pulled in two directions.

Very well-said.
 

paulj

Expedition Leader
... Is it any wonder that when there is a bill proposed that may limit or reduce our access to these roads there will an outcry?....

That 'may' is a mighty big unknown. I'm still waiting for concrete evidence that the March Omnibus will cause any Forum members any inconvenience in their backcountry travels.
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
The Expedition Portal is a site primarily geared toward vehicle based exploring on roads throughout the USA and the world. These travels are primarily on dirt roads or unimproved roads. Is it any wonder that when there is a bill proposed that may limit or reduce our access to these roads there will an outcry? Especially since 99% of the people on this site are responsible land uses who leave the place in a better condition than they found it?

This is an odd group of people who truely love the wilderness and want to preserve it and yet they also want to maintain access to back roads. It's tough to champion a the right to access the land you love and also champion a cause that may shut down the very area you love. I think this is the dilema many of the people on this site face. Many feel pulled in two directions.

Odd group is so right in a nice way! JH and I have never met but we're arguing like a couple of crabby old neighbors over things that we mostly aggree on :ylsmoke:
 

wagner_joe

Adventurer
This is way long, and I've been trying to bone up on the conversation. I don't feel it's an arguement, although my personal thoughts on are the bottom. I researched some stats along with the NPS charter and it's beginnings.

I personally have no problem conserving the land for the greater good. Motorized travel does not have to be required to enjoy. If our hobby, sport, lifestyle cannot protect the wilderness/park/blm land/etc. Then we go against the prinicpals of what the mentioned NPS charters were set up for.


Main Entry: 1pre·serve
Pronunciation: \pri-ˈzərv\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): pre·served; pre·serv·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin praeservare, from Late Latin, to observe beforehand, from Latin prae- + servare to keep, guard, observe — more at conserve
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1: to keep safe from injury, harm, or destruction : protect
2 a: to keep alive, intact, or free from decay b: maintain
3 a: to keep or save from decomposition b: to can, pickle, or similarly prepare for future use
4: to keep up and reserve for personal or special use
intransitive verb

1: to make preserves
2: to raise and protect game for purposes of sport
3: to be able to be preserved (as by canning)

Main Entry: con·ser·va·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌkän(t)-sər-ˈvā-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin conservation-, conservatio, from conservare
Date: 14th century
1: a careful preservation and protection of something ; especially : planned management of a natural resource to prevent exploitation, destruction, or neglect
2: the preservation of a physical quantity during transformations or reactions
The National Park Idea

The NPS "idea" as of the 19th Century (late 1800's)

The idea of a "national park" must have jarred strangely the nineteenth century intellects upon which the words of a Montana lawyer fell as he spoke from the shadows of a campfire in the wilderness of the Yellowstone one autumn night 70 years ago. For Cornelius Hedges addressed a generation dedicated to the winning of the West. He spoke at a time when stout hearted pioneers had their faces determinedly set toward the distant Pacific as they steadily pushed the frontier of civilization and industrialization across prairie and mountain range to claim the land for a Nation between the coasts. His plan was presented to men cast of that die-men whose courage and enterprise characterized the era in which they lived.

But Cornelius Hedges had looked deeply into American character and was not disappointed. He counted upon the altruism which marked that character, and planted in it the ideal which instantly took root and has since flowered as one of America's greatest treasures: the national park system. Thus was a new social concept born to a Nation itself reborn.

The man who broached the national park idea to those men of courageous spirit who comprised the Washarn-Langford-Doane Expedition for exploration of the Yellowstone was indeed the most courageous of all. This expedition of 1870 had set out at its own expense to investigate once and for all the incredible stories of natural wonders which had been coming out of the region for years, from the time the first scouts of fur trading companies blazed their trails across the fantastic wonderland. They found that all of it was true, and that the tallest yarns of the wildest spinners of tales (except perhaps the notorious Jim Bridger, who later simply embellished what nature had already provided) could hardly outstrip what the eye itself beheld. Here were the geysers shooting their columns of boiling water and steam into the sky; here were the hot pools, the mud volcanoes, and other strange phenomena. Here were the gigantic falls of the Yellowstone River in its gorgeously tinted canyon a thousand feet deep. Here were the forests and the abundance of wildlife in every form native to the region. Here, indeed, was a fairyland of unending wonders.

As they sat around their campfire the night of September 19, 1870 near the juncture of the Firehole and Gibbon Rivers (now called Madison Junction), the members of the party quite naturally fell to discussing the commercial value of such wonders, and laying plans for dividing personal claims to the land among the personnel of the expedition. It was into this eager conversation that Hedges introduced his revolutionary idea. He suggested that rather than capitalize on their discoveries, the members of the expedition waive personal claims to the area and seek to have it set aside for all time as a reserve for the use and enjoyment of all the people. The instant approval which this idea received must have been gratifying to its author, for it was a superb expression of civic consciousness.

As the explorers lay that night in the glow of dying embers, their minds were fired with a new purpose. In fact, some of them later admitted that prospects of the campaign for establishment of the Nation's first national park were so exciting that they found no sleep at all.

This, then, was the birth of the national park idea. The idea became a reality, and the reality developed into a system which, through the years, has grown to embrace 21,011,778.58 acres of land and water including 25 national parks, 80 national monuments, and 45 national historical parks, national battlefields and other various classifications of areas.

The advocates of the national park idea lost no time in following their plan through. First steps for carrying out the project to create Yellowstone National Park were taken at Helena, Montana, principally by Cornelius Hedges, Nathaniel P. Langford, and William H. Clagett. Fortunately for the plan, Clagett had just been elected delegate to Congress from Montana and was in a splendid position to advance the cause. In Washington he and Langford drew up the park bill which was introduced in the House of Representatives by the Montana delegate on December 18, 1871. During the preceding summer, the U. S. Geological Survey had changed its program of field work so as to give attention to the wonders described by the civilian explorers. Two Government expeditions, one under Dr. F. V. Hayden and the other under Captains Barlow and Heap of the Engineer Corps of the Army, had traveled together in making Yellowstone studies. W. H. Jackson, who continues to this day to serve as a collaborator on national park studies, was a member of the Hayden party. He obtained a remarkably fine series of Yellowstone photographs, samples of which Dr. Hayden placed on the desks of all Senators and Congressmen. In other ways, Dr. Hayden joined Clagett and his Montana constituents in influencing the passage of the National Park Act. Finally a copy of it was carried personally by Mr. Clagett to the Senate where it was introduced by Senator Pomeroy of Kansas. In response to a request from the House Committee on Public Lands for his opinion, the Secretary of the Interior endorsed the bill. The measure was put through after perhaps the most intensive canvass accorded any bill, in which all the members of Congress were personally visited and, with few exceptions, won over to its support. It was adopted by the House on January 30, 1872, passed by the Senate on February 27, and received the signature of President Grant on March 1.

For the first time the Government had acted to conserve land for a new purpose.

The term "conservation," so commonly applied to coal, iron, or other raw materials of industry, was now applied to mountains, lakes, canyons, forests and other great and unusual works of nature, and interpreted in terms of public recreation.

Various acts of Congress and regulations set up by the Department and the Service have, during the years, become resolved into general policies for the protection, conservation, and administration of the national park and monument system. These policies were best set forth by Louis C. Cramton, special attorney to the Secretary of the Interior, the results of whose studies were incorporated in the annual report of the Director to the Secretary for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1932. They are:

1. A national park is an area maintained by the Federal Government and "dedicated and set apart for the benefit and enjoyment of the people." Such Federal maintenance should occur only where the preservation of the area in question is of national interest because of its outstanding value from a scenic, scientific, or historical point of view. Whether a certain area is to be so maintained by the Federal Government as a national park should not depend upon the financial capacity of the state within which it is located, or upon its nearness to centers of population which would insure a large attendance therefrom, or upon its remoteness from such centers which would insure its majority attendance from without its state. It should depend up on its own outstanding scenic, scientific, or historical quality and the resultant national interest in its preservation.

2. The national-park system should possess variety, accepting the supreme* in each of the various types and subjects of scenic, scientific, and historical importance. The requisite national interest does not necessarily involve a universal interest, but should imply a wide-spread interest, appealing to many individuals, regardless of residence, because of its outstanding merit in its class.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------* Under present interpretation of this policy, any number of super lative areas may be included in the national system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. The twin purposes of the establishment of such an area as a national park are its enjoyment and use by the present generation, with its preservation unspoiled for the future; to conserve the scenery, the natural and historical objects and the wild life therein, by such means as will insure that their present use leaves them unimpaired. Proper administration will retain these areas in their natural condition, sparing them the vandalism of improvement. Exotic animal or plant life should not be introduced. There should be no capture of fish or game for purposes of merchandise or profit and no destruction of animals except such as are detrimental to use of the parks now and hereafter. Timber should never be considered from a commercial standpoint but may be cut when necessary in order to control the attacks of insects or disease or otherwise conserve the scenery or the natural or historic objects, and dead or down timber may be removed for protection or improvement. Removal of antiquities or scientific specimens should be permitted only for reputable public museums or for universities, colleges, or other recognized scientific or educational institutions, and always under department supervision and careful restriction and never to an extent detrimental to the interest of the area or of the local museum.

4. Education is a major phase of the enjoyment and benefit to be derived by the people from these parks and an important service to individual development is that of inspiration. Containing the supreme in objects of scenic, historical, or scientific interest, the educational opportunities are preeminent, supplementing rather than duplicating those of schools and colleges, and are available to all. There should be no governmental attempt to dominate or to limit such education within definite lines. The effort should be to make available to each park visitor as fully and effectively as possible these opportunities, aiding each to truer interpretation and appreciation and to the working out of his own aspirations and desires, whether they be elementary or technical, casual or constant.

5. Recreation, in its broadest sense, includes much of education and inspiration. Even in its narrower sense, having a good time, it is a proper incidental use. In planning for recreational use of the parks, in this more restricted meaning, the development should be related to their inherent values and calculated to promote the beneficial use thereof by the people. It should not encourage exotic forms of amusement and should never permit that which conflicts with or weakens the enjoyment of these inherent values.

6. These areas are best administered by park-trained civilian authority.

7. Such administration must deal with important problems in forestry, road building and wild life conservation, which it must approach from the angles peculiar to its own responsibilities. It should define its objectives in harmony with the fundamental purposes of the parks. It should carry them into effect through its own personnel except when economy and efficiency can thereby best be served without sacrifice of such objectives, through cooperation with other bureaus of the Federal Government having to do with similar subjects. In forestry, it should consider scenic rather than commercial values and preservation rather than marketable products; in road building, the route, the type of construction and the treatment of related objects should all contribute to the fullest accomplishment of the intended use of the area; and, in wild life conservation, the preservation of the primitive rather than the development of any artificial ideal should be sought.


A more detailed and comprehensive history on the mentioned NPS can be found here:

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/kieley/kieley1.htm

I choose not to drink the koolaid thats often dispatched in todays press, but I as a Republican, do feel that preservation of areas does not go far enough. I may be in the minority here, and may only be able to hang with JH but I'd rather keep the areas protected.

If I can spend 12K on a trailer, 2K for a camera, 24k for a truck, 6K or more for modifications, I can pay a fee yearly to ensure that access is maintained and preservation continues. I don't see it as a hidden TAX, but as a future investment, maybe for my 11yr old, maybe for his children, maybe for someone else's here.

As a former Scout, the outdoor code asked that we be "conservation" minded not "preservation" minded. I feel that it was more for being selfless than selfish. but it's just my .02


Again my apologies for the length, but I don't just enjoy "statistics" but historical aspect, either from this time (current) the deep past.

God Bless America!
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
Very well-said.

I agree its well stated, but I am curious why you do? You have directly stated that you are okay with closing our existing access to public lands from mechanized access. This is not the divided angst expressed by Kellymo.

And by closed, they "effectively" are closed. You want them for our future? How will our children be exposed to this Wilderness? MY kids have had plenty of exposure. I have made a determined effort to let them experience the outdoors to the greatest extent possible for me. But if my lands are denied access in any kind of easily accomplishable fashion, how will I get them out there? I don't think you have children. Have you ever tried to get a 5 year to hike a few miles? How about 7 miles, at altitude, or in the desert heat? I have. It's hard!

I have a love and passion for the outdoors and wilderness areas. I partake in them willingly and as frequently as possible, but I am a rarity in this world (statistically). If we put great barriers to accessing the outdoors, fewer people will make the attempt. If I, a lover of the outdoors, feel its a barrier, how much more so for someone not exposed to the beauty and calling previously? It's not an arguable point, it's just true.

I think closing mechanized access to these areas devalues the land, because it inhibits or prohibits the vast majority from being able to enjoy them.

And yes, I said closed. Jonathan, you have stated that they are not really closed. You are wrong. The signs say CLOSED. They do not say closed to mechanized access. They say CLOSED.

I have asked you three times in this thread if you were familiar with the California trail situation. You have ignored my questions, so I assume that you are unfamiliar with the situation here. They are Closing the trails, and only a small fraction of them are cherry-stemmed or corridor'd. I am in favor of cherry-stems and corridors, but not to the extent of large number of side trails that they abandon altogether here in California.

I think Bugnout and Kellymo did identify the core issue. Wilderness should not mean a barrier to access, it should be preservation from abuse. It should allow and encourage our citizens to, as REI's new tagline says, "Find OUT". Closing trails does the opposite.
 

Jonathan Hanson

Well-known member
I agree its well stated, but I am curious why you do?

Because, I can think something is well-stated without necessarily agreeing with all of it. The comment represented a logical train of thought.

Nathan, I'm sorry I ignored your questions about the California situation, and you're right, I'm not familiar with them and so would not comment directly.

And yes, I said closed. Jonathan, you have stated that they are not really closed. You are wrong. The signs say CLOSED. They do not say closed to mechanized access. They say CLOSED.

So, let me make sure I have this straight. They're closed to all entry? No hikers allowed? Because, otherwise, they're not closed. And if they are, that's an entirely separate issue, because the wilderness I defend as a concept is open to anyone who chooses to go there. If you know areas where people are not allowed to go, period, let's hear it, and why they're closed. Every wilderness area I have ever visited is open to foot or wheelchair travel, except for very specific areas closed temporarily due to, for example, breeding of protected bird species. Do you argue with such closings?

You're correct again that I don't have children. However, I have nieces and nephews and have introduced all of them to nature and wilderness. I have also led numbers of children I cannot count on nature hikes, and have taught classes to numbers of children I cannot count, on tracking and animals and numerous other subjects. Introducing children to the outdoors is, in fact, one of my overriding goals as a volunteer. Does that carry any weight, or do I have to be an actual biological parent to satisfy what you're discussing?

A five-year-old doesn't need to hike "a few miles" to enjoy nature or wilderness; I think you know that. And again, you're turning the debate to an anthropocentric one. Any intelligent five-year-old will understand very well if you tell him, "We set aside some places so animals can live there without worrying about cars." Simple, but essentially true.

Wilderness should not mean a barrier to access, it should be preservation from abuse.

Agreed. Would you also agree that something that takes a little effort to achieve is more rewarding than something that takes little or no effort? What gives you a greater feeling of accomplishment, driving up a mountain or hiking up it? Would you also agree that something for which you have had to expend effort to achieve is more precious to you than something for which you had to expend little or no effort?

Further: How many posts here, from both sides of the debate, have complained about abuse of existing 4WD trails, and the trash and illegal tracks that are epidemic in such areas? And you want to open wilderness to the same treatment? How is that protection? Do you honestly think spreading out the problem over more land will diminish it? We've all already agreed that education and enforcement are sadly lacking on public lands. Wilderness areas at least enjoy some de facto protection by their very designation. Slobs (by which I refer to no one here) tend to be lazy. You don't see many trail cleanups in wilderness areas, unless they've been subjected to illegal motorized access.

I have a love and passion for the outdoors and wilderness areas.

Then I do not understand why we are having this debate. As far back as I can read, every comment you have made about wilderness has been derogatory. Truly, I don't understand. You opened the entire thread with the "2.1 million acres gone" comment. Not "2.1 million acres protected." Not, "2.1 million more acres of wilderness for me have love and passion for." If you're saying you have a passion for wilderness, but wish it all had mechanized access, then you don't have a passion for wilderness, because wilderness by definition has no mechanized access.

If all you're saying is that you have a love and passion for wilderness and agree that it should be free from motorized travel, but think that the current acreage is perfect and shouldn't be increased or decreased, then all we're debating is figures.
 

paulj

Expedition Leader
From the web site for Sen Bennett (R-Utah) here's the summary of the Washington Ct portion of the Omnibus that he sponsored (I have added nl to highlight the pieces):

The Washington County Land Bill
designates 256,338 acres of wilderness on land managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), U.S. Forest Service, and the National Park Service, including more than 94% of all BLM Wilderness Study Areas in the county, and enlargement of Zion National Park.

Among other things, Bennett's bill designates approximately 165.5 miles of the Virgin River and its tributaries as Wild and Scenic Rivers, the first such designation in Utah's history;

establishes the Beaver Dam Wash National Conservation Area and the Red Cliffs National Conservation Area, providing permanent protection for the endangered desert tortoise;

authorizes to sell non-environmentally sensitive public lands that the BLM has already identified for disposal, and uses 95% of the proceeds to acquire high-priority, biologically significant lands within the areas designated in the bill;

and enhances management of Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV) use through a comprehensive travel management plan prepared by BLM.
In the summary on the 2008 version (govtrack) the OHV part is:
Directs the Secretary of the Interior to designate a trail which shall be known as the "High Desert Off-Highway Vehicle Trail."
And SLC editorial
http://www.sltrib.com/Opinion/ci_12004580

It looks as though 'roads in wilderness' is a bigger issue in Utah than I realized, with BLM and counties using R.S. 2477 to turn cow paths into 'constructed highways'
http://www.uwcoalition.org/faq/roads.html

There is a current bill on Utah wilderness, America's Red Rock Wilderness Act (apparently a repeat from previous years). Now that looks like it could affect forum members, since it includes Wilderness areas in the Moab region and Canyon Lands.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/rec...02Fmcrmx002Fms20090402-47.xmlElementm106m0m0m
 
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teotwaki

Excelsior!
Jim, I think you're the one who needs a stress pill. My blood pressure hovers right around 120/60 all the time.

Wrong challenge to the wrong guy, Jim. Let's discuss that one over a beer sometime.

Sorry, but my heart is in excellent shape. I run 10 miles in 90 minutes and am not dead at the end of the run.

That was not a challenge. You mentioned the children angle in your post and I asked you to post more about it. You seem to really have a thing for issuing "challenges" and perceiving many forum posts as direct "challenges" to you.

Forum bait does not cause me any upset. I attempted to address all of your statements as well as ask you to validate some of your previous claims. As usual, you avoided the answers but I am not surprised. It is hard to go back and say "Oops, I winged it and made up a statement that I attributed to you based on what I thought that you said".

Beer (or Sierra Nevada Ale) would be great! Too many people confuse forum flak with real life and from there imagine that someone they've never met harbors some sort of ill will towards them.
 

kellymoe

Expedition Leader
I regards to California closures, there have been more and more signs popping up that state no vehicle or mtn. bikes but do permit hiking. One area that I know of that has been closed to all forms of travel including hiking is the Little Rock Creek area in the San Gabriel Mountains. This area has a interesting history in regards to closure and it was done in a piece meal fashion starting at the bottom of the drainage working it's way to the top. All along the way the Center for Biological Diversity has been the group spearheading the closures.

Starting around 1997-98 a popular OHV trail called Santiago's Revenge was closed due to a rare frog that may or may not be found in the area. I had driven the trail once in my 1969 LAnd Rover and found it a challenge and could see the reason for closure as the trail crossed the creek several times. But the closure did not just end with vehicles as I soon found out. At the time I was a avid creek kayaker and had kayaked several creeks in Southern California. I heard from another boater that Little Rock Creek was a classic run that starts in a alpine environment and ends in the desert all within about 11 miles of river. I had to give it a shot. I drove to the put in which was still in snow and then drove to the take out to leave a vehicle. Several miles before even getting close to the creek we came upon a gate and a new chain link fence running in both directions into the mountains for a distance. A sign posted stated closed to all traffic including foot traffic because of the frog. It stated it was a temporary closure of 3 years, 11 years later it's still closed to all traffic, foot, kayak or otherwise.

Fast forward a few years and a little further upstream to Williamson Rock, Southern Californias most popular sport climbing area which I am sad to say I took a large part in developing. Signs were erected in the parking lot of the climbing area stating that all forms of traffic are prohibited. The Pacific Crest Trail runs through this area and was diverted to Hwy 2 around the area.
Fortunetly through the formation of a orginiztion called www.williamsonrock.org there is communication with the NFS and there is hope that a plan can be worked out for the area that effects climbing.

Climbers on a whole are very environmentally minded and would normally endorse a closure like this but I got to see firsthand the NIMBY effect when it hit close to home.

There are very few places like this in California that I am aware of where the area becomes closed to all traffic but it can happen.

Things happen slow and a little at a time, if you are not paying attention before you know it it's gone.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/media-archive/FOREST SERVICE CLOSES Frog HABITAT.pdf
 

paulj

Expedition Leader
The Pleasant View Ridge Wilderness
in the Omnibus apparently includes the headwaters of Little Rock Ck. Does that affect you? Does it close any roads?

This is the Forest notice(1999) on closing Little Rock creek due to the toads (my emphasis)
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/news/1999/news-1999-01-22-littlerock-closure.shtml
This spring and summer the forest will conduct additional surveys and monitoring efforts to determine the precise location of Toad populations, as well as other listed species, within the closed area. In order to obtain accurate information, the surveys must be repeated over several seasons. For this reason, the closure will remain in place until February of 2003, or until further notice.
This issue here is the Endangered Species Act, not hikers versus Jeepers.

Little Rock Ck is included in a Fish and WIldlife rulling on the toad protection, issued in 2001

Things happen slow and a little at a time, if you are not paying attention before you know it it's gone.
'before you know it it's gone'. What is gone? The toad? or precious places to drive and hike? Which disappearance would be permanent?
 
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kellymoe

Expedition Leader
The Pleasant View Ridge Wilderness
in the Omnibus apparently includes the headwaters of Little Rock Ck. Does that affect you? Does it close any roads?

This is the Forest notice(1999) on closing Little Rock creek due to the toads (my emphasis)
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/news/1999/news-1999-01-22-littlerock-closure.shtml


This issue here is the Endangered Species Act, not hikers versus Jeepers.

What you can't see from a link but can see while standing in fron of a gate is that the closure was never seasonal. They closed the lower section in 1996 and expanded it in 1999 and it is still closed today.

I have never been a hiker vs. jeeper type. I agreed with the closure of the off road route that drove through the stream. That was a fun trail but a destructive one.

Your first link is of another area in the Eastern Sierra, I am not familiar with it.

The NFS acted on the toad and frog issue only after the Center for Biological Diversity filed suit. In regards to the climbing area there was already good communication between the climbers and the NFS about building a dedicated trail to the climbing area that would have addressed the issue.

I cant help but feel your trying to make me out to be something I'm not. I'm only speaking of firsthand experiences in regards to closures. Because page on the internet says a area is seasonal does not make it so. If you are ever in the Los Angeles area and would like me to take you on a tour of areas and roads that were once open and are no closed I would be more than happy to do so. Some of the closures were badly needed some were just bad.


Before anyone says anything, I am writing this at work and cannot download spell check:)
 

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