2015/2016 New 3rd gen Tacoma Debut in Detriot

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
Big rigs have c-channel for a reason. Better to bend than break. I remember the boxed frontiers had some late model trucks breaking in half at the cab with heavy campers in the bed.

X2
Everything heavy duty. From a 4500 and bigger is a c channel. Hell the Unimog has a super flexy frame. It's designed to be that way. Part of the suspension.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1421120609.503417.jpg
These frames never fail. A light duty truck such as a tacoma or 1/2 ton truck will have zero issues with a ruined frame. It's funny, everyone trashes toyota for using it, but I have never read or seen a failed frame because of it.


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The lead engineer discussed this in the Q&A. From Toyota's perspective they weren't seeing a Diesel as a good solution for the Tacoma. You gain the mileage of course but the emissions standards are very strict and only getting stricter which means you have to then tack on about $3K in stuff to the Diesel to deal with meeting the environmental regs in the US. So they do have Diesel tech, they sell it all over the world, but in the US they don't feel it makes any sense to do so. They see the Diesel emissions regs worse in just a few years and then planning to be even worse after that. So if they brought a Diesel to the US with the 2016 they figure it would only have a market life of a few years before they would have to throw the whole thing out and start over.

So, R&D a US compliant Diesel that will only have a few years on the market, raise the sticker by at least $3K for the emissions crap for the Diesel and then have customers pay $1/gal more at the pump for the Diesel fuel. They felt not enough people would buy something with such a poor ROI. I happen to agree with them. People don't seem to understand Diesel in Europe and US is a completely different ball game. It rarely makes sense to do in the US.


nice that the new Tacoma doesn't appear to have grown, again.. miss the original size.

please, do explain/summarize the difference in Euro vs. US diesel regulations... seems the US is generally behind in emissions standards, so I am curious to understand the ball game.
 
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dman93

Adventurer
Hmmmmm. How would my Flippac look on one of these.....
One advantage of this"refresh" vs. all-new is that presumably the bed size is the same, so at least your FP should fit. I finding this new Taco very appealing but my T100/gen1 Tundra Flippac won't fit.

-dman93
 

Larry

Bigassgas Explorer
The more I research I do, the scarier diesels sound. So I pay 15% more for the engine, 25% more for the fuel, and I get a couple MPG, higher maint costs, and tons more issues on the new engines. No thanks. Seriously, people need to look into this stuff on other forums..It's scary paying $60k for a truck and having to clear codes constantly or worrying about going to gas stations with high activity so small problems don't litterally total your truck. Unless you are towing constantly, they make zero sense TO ME...

Not to get political, but that's your government at work. EPA has destroyed the idea of a simple, efficient diesel... unfortunately.

EXACTLY! That is exactly what I’ve been preaching in these forums for years and I work for a diesel engine manufacturer. Modern diesels are NOT worth owning in a vehicle that has a gasoline powertrain as an option or unless towing is a part of the trucks daily routine. Also, as I said earlier in this forum the only true justification for buying a diesel in this modern world is because someone WANTS a diesel…period. Range, power, fuel economy, blah, blah, blah…that is all moot with modern diesels and the reasons to not buy a diesel are only going to get stronger in the years to come. Most over the road 18-wheeler fleets are looking at alternatives to diesel power to get away from expensive fuel, costly maintenance and ridiculous downtime for repairs. There are already thousands of spark ignited engines based on diesel engine architecture running on CNG on our Interstates as we speak with thousands more projected this year. Who would have thought the beloved big dog breaker 1-9 good ole buddy diesel engine’s that roam our Interstates would eventually have spark plugs and coil packs instead of an injection pump, injectors and 500 gallons of smelly diesel fuel in the tanks? That is already happening and more and more fleet customers are asking for them every day. Meanwhile, little Johnny still wants a diesel in his mid-size and half-ton pickups. The diesel haydays are gone. 2006 was probably the last year that were worth owning and even that is debatable. Obviously, CNG is not for us little guys but when the pro's that lived and died by diesel are abandoning the fuel as quickly as they can should a clue that sometangwong.

For years so many people have been envious of Europe’s wide choice of diesel offerings in various vehicles but now it looks like some of Europe is second guessing their choice of hanging their hat on diesel fuel being the fuel of choice. France and London are both looking at banning diesels. I could see California following suit at some point in our lives.

http://auto.ndtv.com/news/france-to-ban-diesel-cars-from-next-year-707707

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/01/france-moves-to-ban-diesel/

http://www.euronews.com/2014/12/08/london-could-follow-paris-diesel-car-ban/

I am not a total diesel hater. 10 years ago I would be just like alot of guys wishing for some neat little diesel in a small truck but not in today's world.

Nothing wrong with flexy frame.


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Big rigs have c-channel for a reason. Better to bend than break. I remember the boxed frontiers had some late model trucks breaking in half at the cab with heavy campers in the bed.

X2
Everything heavy duty. From a 4500 and bigger is a c channel. Hell the Unimog has a super flexy frame. It's designed to be that way. Part of the suspension. These frames never fail. A light duty truck such as a tacoma or 1/2 ton truck will have zero issues with a ruined frame. It's funny, everyone trashes toyota for using it, but I have never read or seen a failed frame because of it.
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Exactly, nothing wrong with flexy C-channel frames. Right out of college in the mid-90's I started with the GM Customer and Technical Assistance Center in Detroit and at that time “beam shake” was the most common complaint by first time truck owners especially on extended cab short bed trucks. “beam shake” became much more pronounced and noticeable when the larger extended cab trucks became popular with short beds where the frame under the cab was equal to or shorter than the section of the frame under the pick up box. That combo causes the back of the frame to buck up under the right speed and road frequency and give a hoppy/beaming ride. People didn’t like that normal ride characteristic of a “truck” so like every other manufacturer that was battling the same complaints from first time truck owners, GM answer was a mostly boxed hydroformed frame that was very rigid and delivered a nice ride but would snap and break under conditions c-channel never would. The nice boxed frames like to hold corrosives to help itself rust and return back to mother earth faster too. That is why we will never see a boxed frame on a severe duty duty truck or class 8 semi where durability trumps ride quality.
 

DaVikes

Adventurer
please, do explain/summarize the difference in Euro vs. US diesel regulations... seems the US is generally behind in emissions standards, so I am curious to understand the ball game.[/QUOTE]

Basically the EPA has made our regs the stiffest of all. So the investment to make the engines run cleaner is large, and therefore has to amortized over as many engines as possible. Toyota doesn't see enough diesel Tacoma's being sold to make it worthwhile. With the fuel price disadvantage that diesel has, perhaps only 5% or less (my guess) of Tacoma buyers would spring for a diesel. Most buyers use them more like cars. On sales of 150,000 units a year, 7500 potential diesel sales aren't enough to warrant the investment. At least in Toyota's view. Toyota is trying to consolidate their engine line. So the investment to do something unique, like the Atkinson cycle engines, is spread over many different vehicles. The 3.5 liter block in the '16 Tacoma is also used in the Highlander and several other Toyota's. Probably more than 500,000 units annually.
 

Franco

New member
Also, as I said earlier in this forum the only true justification for buying a diesel in this modern world is because someone WANTS a diesel…period.

Couldn't agree more, I wish more just said that. Diesel has its place, but modern gasoline engine technologies have stripped many of its advantages away in the automotive sector. Long-term, it really depends on how diesel emissions control develops, and the associated cost.

Also, I'm glad some people on here actually know a little about frames and how they work. Frame flex is definitely not a bad thing, though it is usually easier to tune a suspension for higher speed comfort with a rigid frame. It's all compromises, and about the design priorities. Toyota's frame issues have really been more about resistance against the elements than resisting physical stress. The Tacoma's frame is fine for its intended purpose, but anyone looking to go over the capacities of the truck should reinforce the truck's components. That's hardly surprising.

As for the Tacoma redesign, I'm actually a lot happier with it than I thought. I had concerns about Toyota playing it way too safe, or going the other way and ruining it. Like everybody else on here I'm very excited about the interior. I may be more excited about a drop in used Tacoma pricing though... :)
 
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DVexile

Adventurer
please, do explain/summarize the difference in Euro vs. US diesel regulations... seems the US is generally behind in emissions standards, so I am curious to understand the ball game.

You got some great replies already, but I'll add a little more. You've got three things driving diesel in Europe as well as the common perception that Europe has stronger emissions standards (they don't actually).

Efficiency/CO2 vs. Pollution - Higher MPG results in lower CO2 emissions, recently a big deal in the regulatory environment with climate change concerns. Diesel tends to get better MPG so it reduces CO2 emissions. But CO2 has never really been considered a pollutant because it doesn't affect anyone's health even if it may warm the planet in the long run which would indirectly kill people. Pollution regulations target things like NOx, SOx and particulates which do in fact kill people directly through breathing disorders and cancers. Diesel engines while efficient are horrible polluters compared to IC unless you wrap the diesel engine in a whole bunch of additional cleaning equipment and also provide controlled very "clean" diesel fuel. Diesel tends to produce way more NOx and it is also harder to remove from the exhaust of a diesel than an IC engine (different exhaust temperatures). Diesel also produces far more particulate pollution and the particles produced by diesels are extremely carcinogenic. So diesel tends to be an efficient if extremely polluting engine. As to the regulations, in Europe the allowed NOx pollution figure is four times higher than in the US. So it is easier to pass emissions for a diesel in Europe than in the US. Sure, the car is 30% more efficient but it belches four times as much crap for every gallon of fuel, so that's about three times as much pollution from a European diesel than a US internal combustion.

Direct regulation vs economic incentive - Pollution is in economics what is referred to as a "tragedy of the commons". Air quality is a common resource shared by all with no direct economic incentive for any individual to protect it, but if individuals don't do something to protect it everyone as a group will regret it in the end. Other examples of the "tragedy of the commons" are common pastures (the origin of the concept actually, common pastures tend to be destroyed by over use resulting in no pasture at all) and oil fields (this was a huge problem in early oil field development in the US, competing wells racing to draw oil from a common field would result in greatly reduced total recovered reserves than if the wells coordinated a slower output). In general the only solution to the "tragedy of the commons" is government regulation, as suboptimal as that often is. So pollution (NOx, SOx, particulates) for vehicles is the domain of direct government regulation. Efficiency on the other hand is quite different between the US and Europe. In the US we have low tax gasoline and thus there is little economic incentive for efficiency. Instead the CAFE standards attempt to directly regulate what vehicles will be available to the consumer as far as efficiency goes. In Europe instead the gas is very highly taxed and so $8/gal gas is typical. In that kind of environment no direct regulation of efficiency is required at all, market forces from the very high cost of has drive consumers to select the most efficient vehicles. We saw a little bit of how effective economic incentives can be when gas prices hit $4/gal in the US in a short period of time, the SUV market collapsed overnight. Lastly, in the US diesel fuel is taxed higher than gasoline and the opposite is true in Europe.

Paper efficiency vs Real efficiency - The dirty little secret of super efficient European cars is that they are in fact not that efficient. The standards and testing for efficiency in Europe are total BS. In Europe you can basically completely reprogram the ECU of the car and make a variety of other changes to the vehicle prior to doing the efficiency test. The result is the vehicle tested bears little resemblance to the vehicles consumers actually get to drive. So when looking to Europe you see not just a diesel boost in their efficiency ratings but also outright fraudulent testing. The US is actually pretty aggressive in policing this and in fact just recently there was a huge penalty levied against a company for listing MPG figures that were just slightly higher than actual.

So put that all together and what do you get? Europeans pay through the nose for their gas and so if something is 30% more efficient they have a large economic incentive to go that route. Furthermore the regulatory environment for pollution is far more lax in Europe than the US (again, four times more NOx allowed in Europe) and so it is easier to get a pollution belching diesel on the road. So manufacturers have large incentives to put diesels on the road in Europe with few barriers. Now throw in the bogus efficiency ratings in Europe and you are left with the typical US consumer wondering "why can't I get that 80 mpg diesel everyone has in Europe". The answer is "because it doesn't actually exist (it is a lot less than 80 mpg), the thing is smearing soot and NOx all over the place to the point that various cities are thinking of banning them and finally you'll pay an extra $3K for it which the European guy will recover quickly in fuel bills but you will never see an ROI on in the US."
 

bkg

Explorer
Big rigs have c-channel for a reason. Better to bend than break. I remember the boxed frontiers had some late model trucks breaking in half at the cab with heavy campers in the bed.

Poor comparison. There is a reason nearly every other truck is boxed - lets not make excuses for Toyota in that. I'm as big a Toyota guy as any, but I can't stand when people make excuses for poor design.
 

bkg

Explorer
X2
Everything heavy duty. From a 4500 and bigger is a c channel. Hell the Unimog has a y uh super flexy frame. It's designed to be that way. Part of the suspension.
View attachment 265505
These frames never fail. A light duty truck such as a tacoma or 1/2 ton truck will have zero issues with a ruined frame. It's funny, everyone trashes toyota for using it, but I have never read or seen a failed frame because of it.


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Have you seen a failed boxed frame either? I have dents in the cab of my 04 from the box hitting it. It's very common in 01+ Toyotas. Failure? No. Fail? Yes. Will Toyota change? Guessing not. One of those things a person has to accept with Toyota, I guess. But their Dana designed frames have not been something to brag about, especially when all of the competition is going away from the flexy frames.
 

Franco

New member
As to the regulations, in Europe the allowed NOx pollution figure is four times higher than in the US.
Sure, the car is 30% more efficient but it belches four times as much crap
three times as much pollution from a European diesel than a US internal combustion.

DVexile, where are all of these numbers and facts coming from?

The standards and testing for efficiency in Europe are total BS

That's not a secret, the European efficiency testing is hopelessly optimistic. To be clear, this pertains to all types of engines, it doesn't specifically favor diesel. At least not to a significant extent. Conversely, EPA testing isn't perfect either (though better in my opinion).

The dirty little secret of super efficient European cars is that they are in fact not that efficient

European cars tend to be smaller, lighter, and have smaller engines due to economic reasons. They therefore tend to use less fuel per mile (or Km).
 

DVexile

Adventurer
DVexile, where are all of these numbers and facts coming from?

NOx regulations, from here http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/diesel/4330313

The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29.

Now all the diesel regulations are changing fairly rapidly on both sides of the pond. So likely diesel will take a hit in Europe as well and these ratios are changing, may have already changed in fact. But much of the US consumer perception of the "diesel advantage" was formed during the high fuel prices of the past few years and so it is important to realize this 4x difference in NOx regulations in the recent past.

Efficiency numbers for diesel from hundreds of sources, here are a few:

http://www.carsdirect.com/car-buying/diesel-fuel-vs-unleaded-gasoline-understand-the-pros-and-cons
http://www.popularmechanics.com/car...re-gas-engines-now-more-efficient-than-diesel

Anywhere from 20% to 40% more efficient, though that gap is closing. So call it 30% more efficient.

So for same power output fuel consumed by a diesel is 0.70 as much as gas. But a US vehicle emits 0.25 as much NOx. So the European diesel is emitting 0.7/0.25 or about 2.8 times as much NOx for a given output power.

That's not a secret, the European efficiency testing is hopelessly optimistic. To be clear, this pertains to all types of engines, it doesn't specifically favor diesel. At least not to a significant extent. Conversely, EPA testing isn't perfect either (though better in my opinion).

Oh yeah, the EPA is not perfect of course nor will anyone probably ever develop a perfect test. And not a secret to anyone who has done a bit of research, but there seems to be a lot of consumers who just don't understand European efficiency ratings have no relation to US ratings.

European cars tend to be smaller, lighter, and have smaller engines due to economic reasons. They therefore tend to use less fuel per mile (or Km).

Exactly. Make gas 8$/gal and watch vehicles get smaller and recent studies show road fatalities drop as well. Europeans live under very strong economic incentives to drive smaller cars (and their city streets and parking are smaller as well). So besides making them want to drive a smaller car it also means a larger upfront investment in a more efficient vehicle, be it diesel or hybrid, pays off quickly.
 
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toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
Have you seen a failed boxed frame either? I have dents in the cab of my 04 from the box hitting it. It's very common in 01+ Toyotas. Failure? No. Fail? Yes. Will Toyota change? Guessing not. One of those things a person has to accept with Toyota, I guess. But their Dana designed frames have not been something to brag about, especially when all of the competition is going away from the flexy frames.

I never had any debts on my tacoma and I wheeled it hard. He super stuff frame is just the next cool thing to brag about. Just like how many gears can jam into a box. Just as the new raptor has a 10 speed just because another manufacturer had an 8 speed and the previous had a 6 speed. It's a retarded trend that doesn't improve much. Just bragging rights. I have be stiffest frame in the world. Or I have a bazillion speed tranny. I have never seen a super stuff frame fail, but I'm not implying it's weak as fan boys of the new trend imply that c channel is weak just because it's flexy.


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screwball48

Explorer
Still interested to see drivetrain specs. Mpg, HP, gear ratios, lockers and the like. I would also like to hear first driving impressions. All in due time i know.


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DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
[A] super stuff frame is just the next cool thing to brag about.
There's something to this probably. But to me the Tacoma frame question is really about the overall truck being cheapened. The 79-95 truck was fully boxed from tip to stern and the material was thicker throughout. Was it necessary in a mini truck? Nope. But the Hilux was a world truck that was often used commercially, so it was (and remains) more stout. It was nice not having to think twice about using the truck, though. Never really worried about dumping a front loader bucket full of dirt or sand in the back. Of course it would not do this on a daily basis, but it was never any worse for wear when I did.

What really bugs me isn't that so much, because I don't have an issue with a C-channel frame (which are easier to keep clean for one) and even making it appropriate to the intended use, but that they continue to do such a poor job of finishing them. They must have used a better steel and better paint, even after 24 years of winters and a couple of times welding to it my '91 frame looks about as bad as a few year old Tacoma. The '91 is falling apart around the frame, body panels have been stresses and seams are starting to spread. This is on a frame that is generally acknowledged to be pretty stiff. Body shops hate trying to straighten old Toyota frames. Which doesn't bode well for a body that's now bolted to an even more flexible frame in the Tacoma. Or maybe not, maybe the stiffness is bad for the body. That's a possibility I hadn't really considered.

Thing is fairly few seem to care about the backbone of their truck, I guess it's because they don't expect 20+ year service lives from them. I'm chasing down surface rust and will be painting my '08 frame this spring because I do expect this to last a while. Plus I guess I'll be buying a trailer, which is now apparently a necessity with modern trucks that can't be used as trucks.
 
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